Temple Fork Outfitters rod guides / modify

[fishraptor]

One of my most favorite rods is my Temple Fork Outfitters rod.  It is the: GTS SCS 862-2

8'6"

3/4 - 4oz

15-25 line

2pc rod

 

It is my "go to" rod when at the Cape for Albies.  Because of it's length it will EASILY outcast my St. Croix Avid Inshore  7' , 3/4 - 2oz, 10-20 line, Heavy. (AIS70HF) and it's baby brother the  AIS70MF, 

7', 1/2 to 1 1/4oz, 10-20# line. 

 

It is a known fact that the TFO is over rated regarding the weight it throws, rated at (3/4-4oz), EVERYONE knows it,  even the manufacture has stated such. It's top end is more like 2 1/2, maybe 3oz. 

 

Since I love the rod and use it A LOT I was hoping of improving it by changing to high end guides and possible reconfigure the number of guides and obviously their placement. 

 

I believe they come through with the basic Aluminum Oxide guides.  I have been reading online a lot lately about guides and the advantages and such and it just appears to me that an 8 1/2' foot  rod

should have more than 6 guides on it. 

 

What I am trying to do is to improve the longevity of the rod  (use braid) but more importantly increase my casting distance, that is the main reason.   It already will outcast my St. Croixs easily but I wish to gain ANYTHING I CAN.  If you ever fished for  Albies you know you need all the distance you can get, some of the time.  To put it another way, I am wiling to spend whatever it takes to gain anything I can. If it's only 5 feet I gain then that's what I will have to settle for. I am hoping for more like 10' or better but I do not know what any potential gains are possible, hence this post.  

 

I talked to a gentlemen at Redtop tackle shop in Cape Cod and he has the exact same rod and replaced them with I believe Alconite. I don't understand why anyone would change guides from Aluminum  Oxide and just move up to Alconite as they are extremely close regarding  hardness.   I am surprised that he did not go to the SIC guides or the top of the line Torzite. He "claims" he gained distance !!!  but kept the same number of guides in their respective place. 

 

I don't know how many rod builders are on this site but I was hoping to see if anyone had some knowledge of what (if any) I could realistically gain casting wise by going with a higher end 

guides, thinking of Torzites.  I am including a picture just for reference of the rod and guide size and placement.  Since you cannot determine guide size from a picture I thought I would give you

a coule of measurements just for reference if it would help any. The first guide size wise is just a tad small than a quarter and the next one up the size of a dime and slowly diminishing in size to the tip guide just under the size of a pencil. 

 

I use 30#Power Pro with a 7' floro leader using the FG knot.  I am not really concerned about what it cost, just looking to improve/gain anything I can.  I was thinking of adding more guides and going with 

Torzites, assuming somewhat of a smaller guide would be best but I am no rod builder and would need expertise from anyone who could advise options and benefits, if any. 

 

The Temple Fork rod is what you would call somewhat "whippy", not stiff at all BUT will land a 30" Striper no problem, lots of parabolic action. Rod is great for throwing those light 3/4 to 1 oz. lures.  It bends like a SOB, very parabolic with a very even bend through out the entire rod. 

 

Would appreciate any advise I can get. I have not spoken to a rod builder yet, maybe that will be my next step depending on feedback here. 

 

Kind Regards.....

 

wanted to load 2 pics but they are too big and wouldn't load

 

 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

when building from scratch, the lightest guide that will get the job done is my rule of thumb. The number of guides is best determined by static testing rather than rod length alone. Alconite guides are hard and light and the best bang for the buck. I reserve Torzites for high end finesse rods where sensitivity is at a premium. Your best best is fuji kh rapid choke setup or AmTack Microwave guide set. 

[J Francho]

It's a spinning rod.  Guides aren't going to improve casting distance.  Lighter line, and skill will.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Guides can make a difference IF the current setup is not taming the coils effectively. From the description they use the old cone of flight system so there may be something to gain. Cost effective wise I'd build from scratch. 

[fishraptor]

8 hours ago, J Francho said:

It's a spinning rod.  Guides aren't going to improve casting distance.  Lighter line, and skill will.

 

From what I've read and video's watched I would argue that point, I would bet the farm that guides COULD make a difference on a spinning rod and video's can prove it.   Lighter line..... I am already running 30# braid, if push came to shove I could drop down to 20# but the benefit I believe would be very minimal..... and skill can only take you so far....

 

[Scott F]

The benefit of increased casting difference in dropping down from 30 to 20lb braid is probably bigger than you think. I saw big decreases in casting distance when I went from 10 to 15lb test braid. To increase your casting distance, you have to decrease the friction. Increasing the number of guides is going to increase the friction of the line dragging on the guides. Speaking of line dragging on the guides, the knot connecting your leader to the mainline reduces casting distance as it hits the guides. More guides will increase the amount your line slows down as the knot passes through those guides.

[fishraptor]

1 hour ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

Guides can make a difference IF the current setup is not taming the coils effectively. From the description they use the old cone of flight system so there may be something to gain. Cost effective wise I'd build from scratch. 

 

 

Read your reply..... wonder what steps I would take to "determine" if the factory guide setup is working optimally on my TFO rod...... and yes I do realize that the Alconite are best bang for the buck, but both the SIC and Torzite have them beat. The gent at Redtop Tackle said just by changing guides you could lighten up the rod a lot and it would be noticible.  Just that in itself to me would be worth the cost.   I just do not know if a better guide which will be harder will increase casting distance, even minimally due to less friction. I am going to guess that the difference most likely would be almost insignificant ...... but until I find out for sure I will continue to pursue.  That comment you made about static testing determines the number of guides, not length is greek to me. Would like  to know more about the concept. 

 

Let me side step her for just a moment.......  If someone walked up to me and said they could build me a rod that would DEFINITELY out cast my TFO by a solid 10 to 15 yards using the same 3/4 to 1 1/4 oz lure I  would just at the opportunity.  I realize that one of the main keys is that you have to have the rod "load"  fully to help you lengthen the cast and I would further assume that the material used in that rod I  would have to  have a very fast "recovery"  to again help in casting distance. Then add the correct guides and  of course the choice of spinning reel will also make a difference in distance. I am currently using the Stratic CI4 4000 which I ABSOLUTELY love.  Extremely smooth and feathery light...... but spool size is not the largest and it may not be the optimal choice for distance  but I wish to keep the rig as light as possible. When you cast for 6 to 8 hours it can make all the difference in the world so I doubt I  will ever change reels.  Plus the reel is burgundy and the rod has some burgundy..... you  know where I'm leading.... it looks matched...

 

The reason I like the 8 1/2 foot TFO is because of it's light wippy feel with nice power when you need it. The rod is classified as a surf rod but it has a relatively short butt for it's length so it has a regular spinning rod "boat" feel to it, not clunky. You can actually cast with one hand if need be.  The last thing I want is a surf casting rod on the boat.  

 

[MickD]

Agree with DVT.  Guides can make a difference in distance, but it is not in the hardness of the rings or the cost of the guides.  It's in the design of the guide set with respect to height, ring size, and progression.  DVT is right on his recommendation of Fuji KLH guide train; I don't think Microwaves offer the same value or versatility. Or performance.   I recommend using a three guide reduction train starting with  KLH 20, then a KLH 10, then KLM 5.5, then  5.5 KB's to the end, number and spacing determined by a stress test.  Look at the new Fuji Fazlites, much better corrosion resistance than past stainless, and moderate cost.  Look at the Anglers Resource catalog for details on the guides and the guide train design.  Torzites may offer an advantage for sensitivity, but that is not your priority.  And any advantage they have come at an almost astronomical cost.  Those who have commented on the advantage of lighter braid pound test are right on.  That is probably the easiest, cheapest, most effective way to increase distance you will ever find.  Two things to consider.  Can you live with the lighter braids?  The best guide train will have about 5 mm running guides, can you tie a knot that will go through those guides?  An FG will, but if you don't already know how to tie it right, it will take some significant practice to master it.  I truly believe your solution lies in the text above.

[fishraptor]

20 minutes ago, Scott F said:

The benefit of increased casting difference in dropping down from 30 to 20lb braid is probably bigger than you think. I saw big decreases in casting distance when I went from 10 to 15lb test braid. To increase your casting distance, you have to decrease the friction. Increasing the number of guides is going to increase the friction of the line dragging on the guides. Speaking of line dragging on the guides, the knot connecting your leader to the mainline reduces casting distance as it hits the guides. More guides will increase the amount your line slows down as the knot passes through those guides.

 

 

I do agree with you Scott regarding the "more guides = more friction".....  BUT if your rod is not set up correctly (wrong guide layout) you will loose distance and adding more guides to correct that problem will enhance your casting distance.  Guides set up correctly control the line "spool" which in turn adds distance.  Bad line slap on a guide will do more harm than the friction of an additional guide to two. So your theory of "more guides ='s more friction is not always  the case.  You have to control the line.  Scott if your theory was 100% correct we all would have just a few guides on our poles 3 or 4 but that is not the case. Also you need the correct number of guides to allow/make the rod bend evenly.  

 

And regarding you comment about the knot connecting the mainline to the leader, I agree totally and that is just one reason I use the FG, it's the best. 

[Scott F]

1 minute ago, fishraptor said:

And regarding you comment about the knot connecting the mainline to the leader, I agree totally and that is just one reason I use the FG, it's the best. 

HA! The best to me, is no knot at all!

[MickD]

I just thought of another issue in maximizing casting distance.  Are the ergonomics of the rod correct for max distance casting? You may want to cobble on an extension of the butt of a few inches and try it.  Or maybe some other modification can help. Something to think about.

[fishraptor]

7 minutes ago, MickD said:

Agree with DVT.  Guides can make a difference in distance, but it is not in the hardness of the rings or the cost of the guides.  It's in the design of the guide set with respect to height, ring size, and progression.  DVT is right on his recommendation of Fuji KLH guide train; I don't think Microwaves offer the same value or versatility. Or performance.   I recommend using a three guide reduction train starting with  KLH 20, then a KLH 10, then KLM 5.5, then  5.5 KB's to the end, number and spacing determined by a stress test.  Look at the new Fuji Fazlites, much better corrosion resistance than past stainless, and moderate cost.  Look at the Anglers Resource catalog for details on the guides and the guide train design.  Torzites may offer an advantage for sensitivity, but that is not your priority.  And any advantage they have come at an almost astronomical cost.  Those who have commented on the advantage of lighter braid pound test are right on.  That is probably the easiest, cheapest, most effective way to increase distance you will ever find.  Two things to consider.  Can you live with the lighter braids?  The best guide train will have about 5 mm running guides, can you tie a knot that will go through those guides?  An FG will, but if you don't already know how to tie it right, it will take some significant practice to master it.  I truly believe your solution lies in the text above.

 

 

Appreciate the comments..... hummmm....very interesting.   O.K. couple of comments.....   You state "hardness" is not a factor in distance..... I didn't do all that well in Physics class but my instincts tell me that "all else being equal he who has harder guides "theoretically" should cast farther. 

 

So..... you further state that ring height, size and progression are the factors.......  so..... what won't the Torzites do that the KLH do ?  I'll assume you

can get the Torzites in the same height, size and progression as the KLH's.....   or is there a design difference between the two (shape).   I was told the Torzites are extremely light which is a plus....     Redtop led me to believe that by just changing to Torzites I would be able to feel the difference in lightness of the rod ... if that were in fact true that would be a good thing. 

 

The ONLY reason I use the 30# braid instead of the 20, as that is all you need for Albies is the fact that I am terrified of latching onto a huge striper one day while fishing for Albies and loosing it because of the lighter line, which I know I should be able to handle a big fish but .... so that is why I run 30#. 

 

Small tight FG's are not a problem. I have never had one fail........which I am very proud of. 

 

That stress test you refer too.....  even though my TFO 8 1/2'er only has 6 guides on it..... it bends in a perfect parabolic smooth even bend, not sure if that is guide placement or characteristic of the blank. 

 

So..... who is qualified to look at my TFO and determine if in fact it is "as good as it's going to get" or......" definitely room for improvement. 

 

and just like Jurassic Park.....we spare no expense.....

[MickD]

Regarding hardness.  How hard is hard enough for max casting distance?  The rings are not deforming, not being dented, not even wearing.  The loading from the line is about zero when casting.   If you can find a coefficient of friction difference, then maybe there is a difference in performance.  But I think it will be insignificant compared to the other factors I mentioned. On most of the guides I inspect, they are coated in crud from the water and clean only where the line hits on the cast.  So the line is also a crud cleaner.

 

What won't the Torzite do?  Torzites will do everything other guides will do.  And if they are lighter, then the rod will be more sensitive.  But I didn't get that sensitivity was an issue.  If lighter, the rod will recover a little faster, and that's good.  But lighter than what, and by how much?  Check the guide weights between different identical geometries and the lightest will be the best.  

 

Enough to justify the cost?  A torzite 20 mm KLH costs $41.00.  One guide.  I haven't priced the set for your rod, but likely about $200.

 

If you are willing to pay whatever it costs to possibly get the absolutely longest cast, even if it only exceeds the options by a couple yards, then torzite is the answer.  But you can do much better by simply going down to 20#.  

 

Keep in mind that wonderful striper you fear may not even be reachable with any 30# rig.  And if you hook it on 20, you will have significantly more line on the reel.  And if it gets close to spooling you, chase it.  While you are setting up for a  very low possibility, you are giving up the more likely chances at fish outside your 30# casting range. 

 

But yes, regardless of line, torzites are the best. But no