towing with a small suv?

[jbmaine]

1 hour ago, Lures'n'Liberty said:

By "16' tin boat," do you mean a tiny little Jon Boat with a tiller drive 5hp or a decked out 16' bass boat with a deck, console, bigger motor, live wells full of water, etc? If you're talking about a small Jon, your numbers are way off on the weight. Unless you've got way more trailer than you need, you're probably well on the low side of 500 lbs and with surge brakes I could safely pull that with my motorcycle, although I'd probably have trouble coming up a launch ramp. You could also flip that boat over and haul it on the roof like a canoe if you're really weighing all the options. 

My new boat is a Lund Fury XL Sport with a 50 hp . Looking at all the specs and figuring all the gear It should come in at just under 2000lb. I'd like to tow it with a vehicle rated for at least 2500lb (3500lb would be better). I don't like towing right at the edge of capacity.

                                            Jim

[Lures'n'Liberty]

Just now, jbmaine said:

My new boat is a Lund Fury XL Sport with a 50 hp . Looking at all the specs and figuring all the gear It should come in at just under 2000lb. I'd like to tow it with a vehicle rated for at least 2500lb (3500lb would be better). I don't like towing right at the edge of capacity.

                                            Jim

Not pulling that with the Gold Wing LOL. Really though, there's lots of good stuff out there. I love my '17 Tacoma, rated at 6200 it would do you just fine, however it's a pickup truck, not an SUV. the older 4.0 Tacos will do fine, as will a 4 Runner or the smaller Highlander. A Rav 4 would be just a wee on the light side though. As far as the Escapes go, there's an '08 in my company fleet and while reliable so far, it's a major nickel and dimer. Had it back to the dealer 5 times for hard starting conditions related to the chip in the key that a do it yourselfer can't do without a dealership scantool along with a laundry list of stupid stuff like the rear wiper arm breaking off and suspension parts wearing prematurely. The timing cover is starting to leak oil and if it goes like the others, it's going to start chucking belts soon. 45,000 miles ago it was indeed Certified Pre-Owned, bought right off the Ford lot. IMHO, it was a certified pre owned piece of **** and I wouldn't buy another one. 

[CroakHunter]

Can't go wrong with a toyota. I feel like they make the best of the best of every style of vehicle. The new rav4's are nice. And not too pricey. 

[MickD]

The fuel economy will always go down when towing.  Unless you can repeal the laws of physics.

[Further North]

1 hour ago, Lures'n'Liberty said:

As far as the Escapes go, there's an '08 in my company fleet and while reliable so far, it's a major nickel and dimer. Had it back to the dealer 5 times for hard starting conditions related to the chip in the key that a do it yourselfer can't do without a dealership scantool along with a laundry list of stupid stuff like the rear wiper arm breaking off and suspension parts wearing prematurely. The timing cover is starting to leak oil and if it goes like the others, it's going to start chucking belts soon. 45,000 miles ago it was indeed Certified Pre-Owned, bought right off the Ford lot. IMHO, it was a certified pre owned piece of **** and I wouldn't buy another one. 

Completely different vehicle from any Escape made 2013 or later. 

 

Completely different...engines, chassis, drive line...even the wheels...I'd not be surprised if they didn't share any common parts beyond the bulbs in the tail lights...Comparing a pre-2013 Escape with a post-2012 Escape is like comparing different brands of cars...

[Lures'n'Liberty]

4 minutes ago, Further North said:

Completely different vehicle from any Escape made 2013 or later. 

 

Completely different...engines, chassis, drive line...even the wheels...I'd not be surprised if they didn't share any common parts beyond the bulbs in the tail lights...Comparing a pre-2013 Escape with a post-2012 Escape is like comparing different brands of cars...

absolutely correct. Just say no to 3.0

[Further North]

30 minutes ago, CroakHunter said:

Can't go wrong with a toyota. I feel like they make the best of the best of every style of vehicle. The new rav4's are nice. And not too pricey. 

I like Toyotas, have had several...but when I was looking at vehicles a used RAV4 with similar miles was several thousand dollars more that an used Escape...and to get the RAV4 up to anywhere near the same tow capacity, you had to go to the V6...which shot the day-to-day fuel economy right back down to the vehicle I was getting rid of because gas was $4/gallon.

 

...also, having owned many brands I never found them to be any more trouble free than other brands, in fact one of our blew a head gasket at what I felt was unreasonably low mileage...under 50,000.

[Lures'n'Liberty]

35 minutes ago, CroakHunter said:

Can't go wrong with a toyota. I feel like they make the best of the best of every style of vehicle. The new rav4's are nice. And not too pricey. 

Wouldn't say the best, if you're looking for luxury, they're lacking, you've got to go Lexus if you want the bells and whistles. Toyota is pretty utilitarian, they're good at giving you the options that you need without extra doo-dads that you don't. New Rav4's are nice and not pricey, but they're only rated to tow 1500 lbs.

[RPreeb]

1 hour ago, CroakHunter said:

Can't go wrong with a toyota. I feel like they make the best of the best of every style of vehicle. The new rav4's are nice. And not too pricey. 

 

24 minutes ago, Further North said:

I like Toyotas, have had several...but when I was looking at vehicles a used RAV4 with similar miles was several thousand dollars more that an used Escape...and to get the RAV4 up to anywhere near the same tow capacity, you had to go to the V6...which shot the day-to-day fuel economy right back down to the vehicle I was getting rid of because gas was $4/gallon.

 

...also, having owned many brands I never found them to be any more trouble free than other brands, in fact one of our blew a head gasket at what I felt was unreasonably low mileage...under 50,000.

Same here.  I drove 6 different Toyotas from 1973 until 2003.  They just got too high on themselves.  I was able to get a better deal on a Honda - Toyota just wouldn't budge on price so I went another direction.  

 

Now we have 2 Fords, a 2010 Edge (bought in 2014 with just 21,000 miles) and a 2016 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost (bought new a year ago).  They have been every bit as dependable as any of my Toyotas ever were.  

 

I have nothing against Toyota, but I don't see them as significantly better than most others these days.  Even when you see those "reliability" ratings (like JD Power, etc.), the actual quantifiable differences are negligible - more of a marketing tool than any real world difference.

[CroakHunter]

34 minutes ago, Lures'n'Liberty said:

Wouldn't say the best, if you're looking for luxury, they're lacking, you've got to go Lexus if you want the bells and whistles. Toyota is pretty utilitarian, they're good at giving you the options that you need without extra doo-dads that you don't. New Rav4's are nice and not pricey, but they're only rated to tow 1500 lbs.

I didn't know they were only rated for that. That's kinda sad. We build the highlander, sequoia, And Dianna at my plant here in southern indiana. Hard to believe 1000 highlanders a day come out of that plant and we still can't keep up

[Lures'n'Liberty]

30 minutes ago, RPreeb said:

 

Same here.  I drove 6 different Toyotas from 1973 until 2003.  They just got too high on themselves.  I was able to get a better deal on a Honda - Toyota just wouldn't budge on price so I went another direction.  Now we have 2 Fords, a 2010 Edge (bought in 2014 with just 21,000 miles) and a 2016 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost (bought new a year ago).  They have been every bit as dependable as any of my Toyotas ever were.  I have nothing against Toyota, but I don't see them as significantly better than most others these days.  Even when you see those "reliability" ratings (like JD Power, etc.), the actual quantifiable differences are negligible - more of a marketing tool than any real world difference.

I was able to beat them up quite a bit on my Tacoma, there's a few tricks to getting a deal on a new Toyota, though. Go to www.toyota.com and use their vehicle locator. Build a truck that you like and get the specs. Be very specific, it just so happened that when I bought my truck, within my region there was only one Summit White Access Cab TRD Sport with a manual transmission and red/orange piped interior, which is exactly what I wanted. I picked up the phone and called every dealer within 50 miles and told them to give me the best deal that they could. I called back all the ones who gave me a price with the lowest, then I repeated the process. Twice. Then I beat the guy at the last dealer down another $200. The process was worth over $3,000 and I walked out of the dealer with a bad ass little truck that was built in the United States of America for almost 10k less than a new, similarly equipped, assembled in Mexico F-150 and it has a sweet looking hood scoop. Now if only I could find a kayak rack for the access cab roof that doesn't cost $500, I'd be set. 

[Lures'n'Liberty]

14 minutes ago, CroakHunter said:

I didn't know they were only rated for that. That's kinda sad. We build the highlander, sequoia, And Dianna at my plant here in southern indiana. Hard to believe 1000 highlanders a day come out of that plant and we still can't keep up

They very well may have used to be, but they aren't anymore. All 4 cyl, all have rear struts, no frames, nothing remotely close to heavy duty about the rear suspension. It's a good little SUV, but it's a little wee thing. Figure Toyota makes 5 SUV's and a crossover, the Rav4 is the smallest of them all and it's target market is buying little tiny tin can SUV's like the Chevy Trax and Jeep Renegade. The tow capacity is probably a big reason you can't keep up with the Highlanders.

 

[Further North]

1 hour ago, RPreeb said:

 

Same here.  I drove 6 different Toyotas from 1973 until 2003.  They just got too high on themselves.  I was able to get a better deal on a Honda - Toyota just wouldn't budge on price so I went another direction.  

 

Now we have 2 Fords, a 2010 Edge (bought in 2014 with just 21,000 miles) and a 2016 F-150 3.5L EcoBoost (bought new a year ago).  They have been every bit as dependable as any of my Toyotas ever were.  

 

I have nothing against Toyota, but I don't see them as significantly better than most others these days.  Even when you see those "reliability" ratings (like JD Power, etc.), the actual quantifiable differences are negligible - more of a marketing tool than any real world difference.

We're getting a bit of topic here, but spot on, IMO, and a very reasonable evaluation.

 

American makes absolutely earned a reputation for spotty quality and prices too high for the product they were selling back in the 70s, 80s and 90s...I didn't buy an American car from about 1982 until 2000...but these days, they are just as good as anything else...and typically less expensive by enough to get my attention...the price difference really shows up in the used market...or it did last time we shopped in Dec., 2014.

 

These days, there's 3 Fords in the garage: The 2014 Escape, a 2012 Focus and a 2006 Freestyle.  No problems worth mentioning with any of them, nor do I expect any.  There's no particular reason they are all Fords, other than at the time we made the purchases, data and dollars told us they were the best choice for us.  Other folks' may be in different places, that's cool with me...

[gim]

3 hours ago, MickD said:

The fuel economy will always go down when towing.  Unless you can repeal the laws of physics.

Yes, but the amount it goes down is significant when using a small SUV compared to a full size truck.  I know this because I used to tow with a small SUV and now I tow with a full size truck.  The mileage using the SUV went down by almost half and the mileage with the truck goes down by 0.1 mpg.

 

The towing capacity of the Escape was 3500 pounds.  The towing capacity of the F-150 is 12,000 pounds.  That's also a significant difference.

[jbmaine]

Just to get back on topic, or maybe not so much, I need a vehicle to tow my new boat come spring. My forester just will not do it. My wife has disabilities and has to have a vehicle that's easy for her to drive. I figure around 10k for my forester plus around 10k cash is my limit . I also insist on AWD and good gas mileage. So my parameters are a used small or midsize SUV capable of towing at least 2500lb. 

As far as brand, I'm not locked into ford, but not too many small SUV's have much towing capacity. I've heard good and bad stories on just about every vehicle made in the last 3 or 4 yrs

                                            Jim

[Further North]

Jim, here's what I'd do - in fact what I did back in 2014:

 

1. Figure out what you need.
2. Figure out what you want.
3. Research based on specs, reviews and questions you ask on forums like this.
4. Eliminate the ones that don't meet your needs.  That's the easy step, it'll help you ignore a buncha static and noise.
5. Eliminate the ones that go way over what you need.  For example, you're not gonna need a V8 Diesel quad cab long bed...and you probably don't even need to spend the money on an EcoBoost Ford F150, even though you thinnk they're cool as heck.
6. This should leave you with a list of a half dozen or so.
7. Get pre-qualified for a loan so you can get 'er done when you find your vehicle.
8. Go test drive them.  Filter on the stuff you want, and when you find what you're looking for, at the right price...be ready to write the check on the spot.

[MickD]

10 hours ago, jbmaine said:

 

10 hours ago, gimruis said:

Yes, but the amount it goes down is significant when using a small SUV compared to a full size truck.  I know this because I used to tow with a small SUV and now I tow with a full size truck.  The mileage using the SUV went down by almost half and the mileage with the truck goes down by 0.1 mpg.

 

The towing capacity of the Escape was 3500 pounds.  The towing capacity of the F-150 is 12,000 pounds.  That's also a significant difference.

 

But the day to day fuel economy of the 12,000 capacity vehicle is significantly worse than the smaller vehicle.  So there is a trade-off.  And the laws of physics do prevail.  The fuel economy will go down on any vehicle the equivalent of driving the towed weight down the road (approximately because there may be a small advantage of the towed weight drafting the tow vehicle).  But anyone can believe what they want and buy what they want; it's not my money.

 

I have to argue, with due respect, that your down by half and only .1 mpg just do not make sense.

[Lures'n'Liberty]

For 20K you have a lot of options out there, and a few that may be a bit more comfortable if you're willing to step back to something 6-7 years old. A Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon is a hell of a rig and it gets surprisingly good gas mileage, as modern LS V8's shut down cylinders when you don't need the extra power. Don't walk past the conversion vans, either. Your disabled wife may really enjoy heavily cushioned seats that swivel and lighted steps to help her in and out. That back seat that folds down into a bed makes for a great alternative to a hotel if you go to a lake for a weekend, too. It's not unheard of to find insane deals on low mileage conversion vans bought for family excursions that never happened.

[Lures'n'Liberty]

If the above doesn't suit you, you're looking right at the Mid Size SUV market. The Rav4/CRV/Equinox/Compass/Sportage size is not rated to do what you want them to do. You're looking at Highlander, Pilot, 4 Runner, Santa Fe, Pathfinder, Explorer, Grand Cherokee, maybe a few more. Google tells me an Escape is rated to tow 1500-2000 lbs, depending on equipment, so it's probably out, too. One that's a real standout on the list is the Hyundai. Korean cars were total turdburglars for a long time but in the last 10 years they've really stepped up their game, and they'll get you quite a bit of car for your money. As far as a pickup goes, 20k won't get you much under 10 years old or 100k miles outside of a Nissan Frontier, which is by no means a poor choice. A 4 door mini truck with a super short bed makes quite the fishin' truck that will keep you from having to haul the neighbor's couch.

[Further North]

25 minutes ago, Lures'n'Liberty said:

Google tells me an Escape is rated to tow 1500-2000 lbs, depending on equipment, so it's probably out, too.

Ford Escapes with the tow package are rated for 3500 lbs.

 

https://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/17RV&TT_Ford_Escape_Sep7.pdf

 

Google isn't very smart, apparently.

[Further North]

Here's how the gas thing (MPG) shook out in my head back in 2015:

 

Our existing vehicle, a SAAB 9-7x (Chevy Trailbazer/GMC Envy with a SAAB badge on it) averaged about 16 MPG. 

 

That meant about $3,750 a year in gas*.

 

The Escape averages about 23 MPG...or about $2,610.

 

Dunno about you folks, but I can find a lot of things to do with $1,140 a year...or $11,400 of the time we're likely to keep the vehicle.

 

...even if it's 19 MPG on the lower MPG vehicle, that's still $550 (I rounded up $0.80) and $5,500.

 

So back to my example...

 

I'll give the $1,140 to 'my guy" who will invest it for us...over the last 10 years, he's averaged 9%.

 

So at the end of year one, the $1,140 is worth $1,243** (I rounded $0.60 this time), and we add another $1,140

 

At 10 years, it winds up looking like this:

 

In my world, that's about $1,000 less than I paid for my last new-to-me used boat...or if I let it float, part of a larger picture that's going to let me pull the plug on working for a living before I'm 60...

 

Keep in mind the real number is something like $18,150 if I give "my guy" money once a month, or $18,330 if I give "my guy" money every two weeks as an auto-deduct out of my paycheck**...Compound interest is truly the 8th Wonder of the World...***

 

Sorry to wander off topic...but I love this stuff...

 

*20,000 miles; $3.00/gallon to keep the math simple)

**Yeah, there's fluctuations in markets...but the 9% is easy, and I'm anything but aggressive in investing.

***the difference between a 19 MPG vehicle and a 23 MPG vehicle are $7,230, $8,275 and $8,810 respectively.  Nothing to sneeze at...

 

[RPreeb]

My wife's Edge gets about 21-22 mpg, and it's 7 years old.  My understanding is that the newer ones do better than that, and it's a lot more car than an Escape.  I'm a big guy, and I fit the Edge comfortably (we originally bought it for my vehicle, then swapped when we had to buy the F-150 to tow the camping trailer).  I didn't even bother to look at the Escape any farther than just sitting behind the wheel.  

 

I also got to drive an Equinox and a Jeep Cherokee over the last couple of years.  The Equinox was small for me, but otherwise okay to drive, but the Cherokee had perhaps the most uncomfortable seat of any vehicle I've ever driven.  The Jeep was a high end model, with all the bells and whistles, but nothing could make up for that seat.

[Further North]

2 hours ago, RPreeb said:

My wife's Edge gets about 21-22 mpg, and it's 7 years old.

is that best case, or average?

 

I've seen 32 MPG best case on our Escape.

 

Average hovers around 23, a buddy with a 2010 Edge who lives a couple miles from me and drives about the same patters reports about 20 MPG.

 

Darn near bought an Edge, would have been great with the extra back seat room...but $$$ won out over something that gets use less than one trip in 50.

[gim]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 6:47 AM, MickD said:

I have to argue, with due respect, that your down by half and only .1 mpg just do not make sense.

I tracked the mileage electronically with both vehicles.  The Escape labored and mileage dropped by 45%.  The mileage goes from 17.8 to 17.7 with the F-150.  I'm not making these numbers up, they are directly from the Ford product when I am driving.

 

I'm not denying that the Escape or other small SUV gets better mileage when not towing.  That's pretty obvious.

[MickD]

 Your 150 is as magic as the Impala of a friend of mine, 40 mph overall for three years.  I advise you both to keep them.  I doubt if you will  do as well with the next one.  At least for the non-towing vs towing.  But that 17.8 while not towing is pretty low.

 

The difficulty is driving the same for all comparisons.