Opinions of the new BASS Open's format

[Logan S]

10 hours ago, 1simplemann said:

The Opens are supposed to be a test of Angling Ability and nothing else.

All tournaments are a test of angling ability...The Opens are supposed to be a qualification route to the Elite Series.  The old format was qualifying many anglers who either did not accept the invitation in the first place, or did accept and washed out after the 1st year (or before the end of the 1st year).  This was apparently an issue for BASS so they changed the format slightly in hopes of increasing the chances for recruiting more accomplished anglers into the Elites.  It makes sense to me and as someone that hopes to fish them in the future I actually like the new format.  One thing I hope they do is keep some variety in the schedule...The Opens for the past several years have essentially been on the same locations at the same times.  

 

'Regular' guys hoping to fish the classic still have the Federation route, which IMO has always been the more logical choice since the bulk of the events you fish on that path will be on your local waters.  Even Co-anglers have qualified for the Classic from the Federation.  

 

I know I'm in the minority on this - But I don't believe money to be as big of a limiting factor as most others seem to.  Does independent wealth make it easier?  Of course...But there are plenty of pros on tour that got there from modest beginnings, just look at recent example like Palaniuk or Swindle.  If an angler truly has the skill AND desire to make it to the top, they will find a way to make it work.  There is no age limit, you can have a 5 or 10 year plan to give you time to save your money.  I think the reason so many point to money is the RISK in trying it....It's really not about having the money, it's about the consequences if you bet on yourself and don't make it.  A wealthy person could 'afford' to lose it, so it's easier on them.  I would bet that for every Elite angler that was independently wealthy before qualifying, you could find an angler from a modest background that make it through hard work and planning - I'd actually argue there are more Elite anglers in the second category than the first.  

 

It seems most people don't like it becasue they can't try to 'jackpot' an Open anymore...Or at least can't do it as easily.  I'm pretty sure that was one of the main reasons for the change.

[RichF]

@Logan S

 

You make a very valid point concerning the monetary aspect of it.  Fishing at that level is a gamble, one that the majority of anglers don't want to take.  I'm in that boat .  That's why I never took the plunge (still hoping to at some point).  I never intended to take away from the hard work many of the established Elites put forth to achieve what they've achieved and I would certainly agree that most weren't handed anything on a silver platter.  I hope my posts didn't come off that way to anyone.

 

I still think there's a better way for BASS to run the Opens but I'm not quite sure what that is.  It's incredibly frustrating that something already so difficult to do just became 10x more difficult, but, when it comes down to it, BASS did the right thing, for BASS.  They're a business and I totally get that.  Hopefully by that time I grow a set and take the leap, BASS will have listened to you and agree to change up the schedule a little bit. haha  

 

 

[WRB]

I know a older bass angler that fished local tournaments that inherited several million dollars, his dream was becoming an Elite angler. Sold his home, moved to Texas and started his journey to achieve his dreams and failed after several years of trying, because he wasn't good enough to compete with younger anglers that are  good and had the health and stamina to travel and fish multiple day events and that was during the original Open format. Money isn't everything, you need the skills and health to compete at the Elite level.

Tom

[BassNJake]

@RichF

On 9/26/2017 at 3:56 PM, BassNJake said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority but I think that it is great.

It is another move towards making the Elite series the very best of Professional fishing.

 

My first reply to this topic was about professional fisherman.

 

On 9/25/2017 at 10:25 AM, RichF said:

It's a step on the "right" direction for BASS but a wrong one for the majority of amateur anglers. 

You stated this was bad for amateur anglers.

I think we are looking at this from 2 different sides.

I don't think of the opens as the Triple A or minor leagues of BASS.

Bass Nation fills that role.

I view the opens as another opportunity for professionals.

If I fished professionally, I would enter every event I could and I'm sure my sponsors would appreciate/encourage it as well.

If this was a minor league then there would be rules in place so that touring pro's could not fish it.

I'm not sure where the misconception that the opens were a step down or the Triple A of BASS came from.

 

20 hours ago, RichF said:

I'm not sure I see the Randall Tharp example as relevant within the context of this debate.  He had a good sponsorship deal with the FLW that allowed him to gain exposure to other sponsors who finally provided him with the financial backing to accept the Elite series invitation.  If anything, this is a huge aspect of my point.  He had the right platform in the FLW to give him the necessary exposure to sponsors who ultimately provided him the financial backing to pursue the Elites.  But in order for the average angler (to be clear, I'm using "average" to describe a very good angler that's not wealthy) to do that, he/she would need a platform that's at least somewhat reachable.  The Opens, in their new form, are no longer that.  I suppose then, the answer to this would be, fish the Costas/FLW.

My point with Randall Tharp is he waited until he had already won over a million dollars fishing FLW before he felt like he had the financial backing to fish the Elite Series. He fished BFL and Costa before fishing FLW and he was tearing it up there too. Out of his 39 top 10 finishes, over 20 of those were at the BFL level and the 6 years prior to him switching to the FLW tour. This is the type of success and commitment it takes to attract the sponsors to fish professionally. FLW didn't give him the platform, he earned it through his success fishing the actual lower levels like BFL and Costa. His continued success led to more sponsors. Guys that have massive talents have many options to grow their fishing game and their marketability.

 

https://www.flwfishing.com/anglers/randall-tharp-122881

 

 

You have also mentioned BASS trying to become a mainstream sport.

I've never heard that and cant see how anyone could compare them at all.

Which mainstream sport requires the participants to pay an entry fee to all the events?

Which mainstream sport has it's biggest event of the year on a 2 week delay before it is on TV?

If bass fishing does become mainstream, I'd hate to see the animal activists and PETA type protests that would be held.

 

I have enjoyed this discussion/debate, I just think we are looking at it from 2 different perspectives.

 

[RichF]

@BassNJake

 

I agree. This has been a great debate with a lot of really good perspectives. You are definitely correct that we are looking at the Opens from two different viewpoints.  I also think we are both backing up our arguments pretty well.  

 

The Elites is the highest level of competitive bass fishing.  I don't think there's any argument there.  In order to get to that level, you have to qualify thru the Opens (that's the only way).  Again, no argument there.  The Nation, while it provides an opportunity for a Classic berth, will not get you to the Elites.  This is why I see the Opens as the triple-A division not the Nation.  I would feel differently if the Elite series worked like the Opens; open to all, just with a higher price tag.  

 

I agree with you about fishing everything I could if I were a Pro (not a pro with a day job, a touring pro).  If the rules say it's OK, I'd be in.  Sponsors would absolutely encourage participation.  Opens are no slouch tournaments and they offer sponsors great exposure.

 

What I meant with regards to Tharp was that the FLW provided/provides stepping stones (a platform), in terms of tournament circuits with progressively higher competition, that are more easily accessible to more anglers.  The Costa Series is the FLW equivalent to the Opens but they are comprised of five divisions with three events in each and a final championship.  Smaller geographic regions and fewer events = less travel, less time off, and lower overall cost.  Tharp is an incredible angler and great professional and he was able to use the FLW's various circuits to build his brand, win multiple tournaments, and gain financial backing through sponsorship.  That's the dream.  That's what I don't think the new Opens are going to offer the majority of anglers.  When the organization provides more cost effective circuit options, an angler looking to make a career has the ability to compete more often, prove himself/herself with high finishes, and attract potential sponsors. 

 

With regards to BASS wanting to become a mainstream sport, I agree that it's near impossible and you can't compare the two.  That idea is there though.  That was the vision when the new owners took over seven years ago.  I remember reading an article on Bassmaster.com written by one (maybe more) of the owners basically stating they want to get to a point where their major players (the Elites) don't have to pay entry fees.  That's why there's been the push for so much live content.  They want bass fishing to be a true spectator sport.  Bass fishing as a mainstream sport would absolutely be a PR nightmare lol.  That's why we're seeing more and more events with the weigh and release format.  

 

Why can't more debates these days be this civil? hahaha

[BassNJake]

@RichF

 

Seriously great discussion.

I enjoyed hearing a different opinion than mine, but one I see quite often about the Opens.

I thought that the Bass Nation winner got an invite to both the Classic and the Elite series?

I believe that is how Ike and Brandon P both qualified for BASS but that could have changed as well.

(or I'm mistaken which happens too)

 

I really like the FLW format as far as the Costa and BFL's go.

I do not like that there are co anglers fishing the FLW tour.

( a couple years ago a Pro's catch was disqualified because the Co Angler put his fish in the pro side livewell)

An amateurs mistake costing the pro.

 

I think it would be awesome if the Elites didn't have to pay entry fees.

Kevin Short had a good article on bassblaster about entry fee's and payouts.

 

 

 

[RichF]

I can't find anything about a Nation winners qualifying for Elite Spots on Bassmaster.com.  It very well could've been the case when Palaniuk and Ike won.  

 

I agree about co-anglers and the FLW Tour.  I could see FLW changing that in the near future. 

 

That article was great.  The insider info is always eye opening.

[OCdockskipper]

7 hours ago, 12poundbass said:

... Look at the top 25 largest bass caught ...You guys have awesome largemouth and spotted bass fishing and only a handful are taking advantage of it... It just boggles my mind bass fishing isn't bigger in California. 

 

Tom is probably more qualified than I to comment on this, but most California fisheries that produce huge fish are difficult for numbers (The Delta being a notable exception).  Yes, you have a chance at catching a 17 lb bass, but you also have a chance of getting skunked multiple times in a row.  I would wager that you have a much better chance of catching an 8 to 10 lb bass in Texas or Florida than California.  You definitely have a better chance in those states of a day of catching 30 fish with the top 5 topping 25lbs than in California.

 

The allure of the remote chance to catch a huge bass doesn't attract new anglers as much as the sure bet of catching a bunch of fish.  That is why most California anglers target trout, catfish & saltwater species.

[Senko lover]

I also think it's valuable to include Bassmaster's High School and College programs in this discussion. I think they are fantastic ways to give the kids experience without personally having to sacrifice a financial arm and leg to participate. These programs, imho, are the future of Bassmaster. Just look at Jordan Lee.

 

I would imagine that Bassmaster is relying on these programs to invest in the sport and raise up future talent and are using the Opens for financial gain. This model leaves out the post-college, weekend anglers who want to try to go professional. 

[1simplemann]

On 9/28/2017 at 1:54 PM, RichF said:

@BassNJake

 

I agree. This has been a great debate with a lot of really good perspectives. You are definitely correct that we are looking at the Opens from two different viewpoints.  I also think we are both backing up our arguments pretty well.  

 

The Elites is the highest level of competitive bass fishing.  I don't think there's any argument there.  In order to get to that level, you have to qualify thru the Opens (that's the only way).  Again, no argument there.  The Nation, while it provides an opportunity for a Classic berth, will not get you to the Elites.  This is why I see the Opens as the triple-A division not the Nation.  I would feel differently if the Elite series worked like the Opens; open to all, just with a higher price tag.  

 

I agree with you about fishing everything I could if I were a Pro (not a pro with a day job, a touring pro).  If the rules say it's OK, I'd be in.  Sponsors would absolutely encourage participation.  Opens are no slouch tournaments and they offer sponsors great exposure.

 

What I meant with regards to Tharp was that the FLW provided/provides stepping stones (a platform), in terms of tournament circuits with progressively higher competition, that are more easily accessible to more anglers.  The Costa Series is the FLW equivalent to the Opens but they are comprised of five divisions with three events in each and a final championship.  Smaller geographic regions and fewer events = less travel, less time off, and lower overall cost.  Tharp is an incredible angler and great professional and he was able to use the FLW's various circuits to build his brand, win multiple tournaments, and gain financial backing through sponsorship.  That's the dream.  That's what I don't think the new Opens are going to offer the majority of anglers.  When the organization provides more cost effective circuit options, an angler looking to make a career has the ability to compete more often, prove himself/herself with high finishes, and attract potential sponsors. 

 

With regards to BASS wanting to become a mainstream sport, I agree that it's near impossible and you can't compare the two.  That idea is there though.  That was the vision when the new owners took over seven years ago.  I remember reading an article on Bassmaster.com written by one (maybe more) of the owners basically stating they want to get to a point where their major players (the Elites) don't have to pay entry fees.  That's why there's been the push for so much live content.  They want bass fishing to be a true spectator sport.  Bass fishing as a mainstream sport would absolutely be a PR nightmare lol.  That's why we're seeing more and more events with the weigh and release format.  

 

Why can't more debates these days be this civil? hahaha

I'm not up to date on FLW. You mention the Costa series. and 5 regional divisions. Is there a Western division. If so maybe I should fish that. I've always heard that FLW is more for the working man.

[1simplemann]

I just looked over on FLW's website and lo and behold there's a Western Costa going on right now at Clear lake. If FLW can do it then why can't BASS?

[Logan S]

15 minutes ago, 1simplemann said:

I just looked over on FLW's website and lo and behold there's a Western Costa going on right now at Clear lake. If FLW can do it then why can't BASS?

And it only has 100 boats fishing...Compared to 200+ at some other Costa events.  We just had a Costa series here on the Potomac that had 160+ at one of the toughest times of the year.  The Costa is the only big national trail out there and they still only draw 100 boats for Clear Lake, one of the top fisheries in the nation.  A full field for Costa/Opens is usually 150 boats, the Western series never even got within 20 boats of hitting that number in any of the 3 events.  

 

It sucks for guys out west, but the numbers just aren't there.  It's unlikely BASS would put an Opens series out there to compete with the Costas for the limited market.  

[BassNJake]

On 9/28/2017 at 6:05 PM, RichF said:

I can't find anything about a Nation winners qualifying for Elite Spots on Bassmaster.com.  It very well could've been the case when Palaniuk and Ike won.  

 

I agree about co-anglers and the FLW Tour.  I could see FLW changing that in the near future. 

 

That article was great.  The insider info is always eye opening.

Found this information about the upcoming BASS Nation championship on Lake Hartwell.

 

 

The champion will receive a Bassmaster Elite Series berth, paid entry into their division of choice in the Bass Pro Shops Bassmaster Opens, a prize boat to keep, plus a “B.A.S.S. Nation’s Best” prize package, which is a fully rigged tournament-ready boat for one year.
 
Second- and third-place finishers will earn paid entry into their division of choice in the Bassmaster Opens, and the “B.A.S.S. Nation’s Best” prize package, which is also the use of a fully rigged tournament-ready boat for one year.

[RichF]

5 hours ago, BassNJake said:

Found this information about the upcoming BASS Nation championship on Lake Hartwell.

 

 

The champion will receive a Bassmaster Elite Series berth, paid entry into their division of choice in the Bass Pro Shops Bassmaster Opens, a prize boat to keep, plus a “B.A.S.S. Nation’s Best” prize package, which is a fully rigged tournament-ready boat for one year.
 
Second- and third-place finishers will earn paid entry into their division of choice in the Bassmaster Opens, and the “B.A.S.S. Nation’s Best” prize package, which is also the use of a fully rigged tournament-ready boat for one year.

Nice. That's a solid prize pack!

[12poundbass]

7 minutes ago, RichF said:

Nice. That's a solid prize pack!

There ya go Rich, the heck with the Opens go through the Federation Nation!

[RichF]

HA! The Fed is way harder lol!

 

 

[NVD20]

This just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. Many anglers on the Elites are actually not that well of financially, although the people that do well consistently can pay their way more than new anglers or ones that don't do well often. I do know many Elite anglers and most are very down to earth guys that came up from humble beginnings, but with many colleges and high schools starting to get well-known fishing teams its going to start being alot harder for the average joe to enter the opens and be able to compete against anglers of similar skill.

 

I fish on the Michigan Collegiate Bass Circuit and many of my competitors and friends fish out of hand me down boats fiberglass boats and most fish out of john boats and other aluminum boats. I, being a college angler in Michigan know many of my competitors now are like many that fish in the opens, but more and more are getting the latest and greatest things being able to outclass many anglers just because they can get to a spot first that they found using their superior fish finders. Although I have no room to talk, I definitely don't have the fastest or biggest boat on our tour, nor do i have the slowest. this year we had four events and one school in our series has fishing as a varsity sport and they get new wrapped ranger boats and trucks, gas, and all of that paid for plus their tuition, so they immediately have an advantage over other teams, but they dont get to keep any of their tournament winnings, it all goes to the school, which isnt much money in my league.

[12poundbass]

34 minutes ago, NVD20 said:

This just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. Many anglers on the Elites are actually not that well of financially, although the people that do well consistently can pay their way more than new anglers or ones that don't do well often. I do know many Elite anglers and most are very down to earth guys that came up from humble beginnings, but with many colleges and high schools starting to get well-known fishing teams its going to start being alot harder for the average joe to enter the opens and be able to compete against anglers of similar skill.

 

I fish on the Michigan Collegiate Bass Circuit and many of my competitors and friends fish out of hand me down boats fiberglass boats and most fish out of john boats and other aluminum boats. I, being a college angler in Michigan know many of my competitors now are like many that fish in the opens, but more and more are getting the latest and greatest things being able to outclass many anglers just because they can get to a spot first that they found using their superior fish finders. Although I have no room to talk, I definitely don't have the fastest or biggest boat on our tour, nor do i have the slowest. this year we had four events and one school in our series has fishing as a varsity sport and they get new wrapped ranger boats and trucks, gas, and all of that paid for plus their tuition, so they immediately have an advantage over other teams, but they dont get to keep any of their tournament winnings, it all goes to the school, which isnt much money in my league.

Welcome to Bassresource from central Michigan. Where in Michigan are you from?

[NVD20]

3 minutes ago, 12poundbass said:

Welcome to Bassresource from central Michigan. Where in Michigan are you from?

Southwest

[jmcarriere]

On 9/28/2017 at 12:50 AM, OCdockskipper said:

In baseball, bowling & poker (to name a few off the top of my head), the top professionals will compete in the leagues or divisions that feed the major league level.  To try to limit the field by excluding top talent is a weak way to compete.

Bowling is a very poor example as i am also a bowler and there is no clear line between a pro and an amatuer in bowling since as long as you ha er 200 in a weekly league amd pay your PBA membership you can bowl against the top bowlers. And that is what BASS is trying to so is create a clear line do i think what they are doing with the opens is the correct way but at least you ha e to qualify to fish the elite series.

[OCdockskipper]

8 hours ago, jmcarriere said:

Bowling is a very poor example...

 Bowling is an example that has changed, for it used to be (30 years ago) difficult to average 200.  With changes to equipment and lane conditions, averaging 200 now is not difficult at all and outlandish averages over 230 are not unusual.  It is much easier to become a PBA member than it once was, unfortunately.

 

That said, the point is if you enter a scratch bowling tournament, there is no distinction that prevents any of the top talent from entering as well.  I recall some folks that would complain that when the PBA tour used to come to Orange County (usually Fountain Bowl), you would see pro's bowling local scratch tournaments as well.  Pete Weber, true to his nature, would usually mouth off to the locals, which never helped the situation.

 

Point is, in a competition, if it is an "Open" event, that includes everyone.  If you don't want to compete against the best, fish a club tournament or bowl in a handicap league.

[1simplemann]

On 9/30/2017 at 11:09 AM, Logan S said:

And it only has 100 boats fishing...Compared to 200+ at some other Costa events.  We just had a Costa series here on the Potomac that had 160+ at one of the toughest times of the year.  The Costa is the only big national trail out there and they still only draw 100 boats for Clear Lake, one of the top fisheries in the nation.  A full field for Costa/Opens is usually 150 boats, the Western series never even got within 20 boats of hitting that number in any of the 3 events.  

 

It sucks for guys out west, but the numbers just aren't there.  It's unlikely BASS would put an Opens series out there to compete with the Costas for the limited market.  

2017 WON Bass Open on Lake Mead has 207 boats entered. Guys entered from all across the West! If these guys are doing it then BASS can too. Western anglers will support Western Opens.

[Logan S]

11 hours ago, 1simplemann said:

2017 WON Bass Open on Lake Mead has 207 boats entered. Guys entered from all across the West! If these guys are doing it then BASS can too. Western anglers will support Western Opens.

Put it in perspective...Big events like the Basscat Owners or Triton Owners tournaments on this side of the country pump out 350+ boats routinely.  207 is big for western standards but still pretty normal if it were in the central/southern/eastern regions of the country.  

 

Not trying to argue about it or anything...But I don't think people would disagree that the physical number of bass anglers out west is lower than it is in the rest of the country.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong in the future though.  

[1simplemann]

Logan, It wasn't taken as an arguement. There is a misconception somewhere in BASS(and other places apparently) that the West won't support Open's out here. If the Western Outdoor News can put on an Open on Lake Mead and get 207 boats then BASS can do the same thing. They are the leading Bass fishing organization in the country. With their promotional abilities, I see no reason they can't have the same success W.O.N. is having out here. IMO it doesn't take 350 boats to put on a successful Open. We don't have the population base that you do but we definitely have the fisheries!

[12poundbass]

I'm wondering if it's more of a sponsorship issue? Maybe companies don't see a high probability of getting a good return on their investment therefore don't see the value in sponsoring a B.A.S.S. open in the West. Just thinking out loud.