Next Finesse Casting Build

[Andy007]

I would like to build a dedicated rod for light T-rigs plastics.

It will have a spiral wrap design and use 10# braid. 90% of the time I'll be using a 1/8oz weight plus plastics. It will be used for weedless light fineness (outer deeper weeds and open water just beyond the weed line).

5 years ago I used a Rainshadow 6’6 med jig spin blank and work real good for this type of fishing, great sensitivity.

I have read good things about the Immortal line and kinda narrowed my selection down a bit, not set in stone and opens to ideas if I’m headed in the wrong direction!

IMMWS72ML     Walleye series 7’2 ml fast
IMMS72ML        Bass spin 7’2 ml fast     (maybe the m fast)
IMMS610MXF    Bass spin 6’10 extra fast    (read great things about this blank)

Looking for your input or experience’s with any of these blanks.

Thanks for your help!!

[MickD]

I use the walleye S72ML built as a spinning rod, and it is a nice blank for Neds and for its intended use, jigging walleyes.  But I don't think it will do well for what you intend.  I think you want a more powerful rod with a faster action.  While this blank is called a fast action, I CCS measured mine and the action angle was found to be 65, typical of a moderate or moderate-fast action.  I believe my data are correct based on observing its curve under load.  I don't think this is the right blank.  Its power was found to be 190 grams.

 

I would shy away from the Bass ML power S72ML unless someone comes on with some real experience as it too may not really be a fast action.  And ML may not be powerful enough.

 

The 610 extra fast is rated at its low end for lures right about where you will be working, and an XF action would be better for finesse, in my opinion.  But I have no experience with either of the latter blanks.

 

If you could get some CCS data on the latter blanks, it would be great.  Based on my other rods I've tested for CCS, I think you need a fast or extra fast action with power of 325 grams or slightly more.

 

Based on a couple builds of Point Blank blanks by Anglers REsource, I think the blank you are looking for is the PB691MLXF, 6 foot 9 in, medium light power, XF action. The lure recommendation is 1/16 to 3/8 oz.  Keep in mind that different makers rate power and action differently, but CCS gives objective data.  This rod will be about 370 grams, action angle about 76 degrees, definitely an XF action.  Point Blank blanks are terrific blanks, more pricey than Immortals, but the fact that you have pretty good objective power and action numbers, it may save you a build if the others with no objective data don't work out.  Regardless, you will be really pleased with this blank for other uses if it's not quite right for this build.  You simply cannot have too many rods.

 

Come back and let us know what you built and how it works. 

 

I built two PB691MXF's for my son, built as casting rods, and he loves them.

 

[.ghoti.]

I have the 7'2" ML-F walleye blank, built as a casting rod. I used an 8.5" Winn rear grip, no fore grip, Recoil micro guides, Fuji tip, and trimmed 2" pff the butt to get the balance where I wanted it. It's my primary BFS rod, and works great for light baits on light line, in open water.

 

I agree with Mick. It is not a fast action stick. The 3/8oz listed max weight is on the mark. A 1/2oz load is too much for it. I like mine for just what you're going to use your new rod for, but I tend to stay near the bottom end of the rod's weight rating.

[MickD]

With all due respect for Ghoti, who I know is a fine rodbuilder who knows his blanks and rods, I think you will be disappointed in the walleye rod for your use.

The blank will cast what you want to cast well, but the issue is, in my opinion, in the hook set. I think you probably want to be able to do a fairly aggressive hook set, and I don't think this blank will give you that.  But as I said before, you cannot have too many rods. If it doesn't do this job well, it will be a nice Ned rod.

[Angry John]

I am looking at building a bfs rod on the st Croix Le sc5 mlxf.  I don't have the ccs data but I plan on building a board and testing all the rods I own.  I wish there was a shared database for this info but I can completely understand it being trade craft and keeping it close

[MickD]

It is possible to do CCS quite accurately without a board taking up all that space.  If you are interested in what I did, a setup that can be put up and down easily and that takes up much less space, e-mail me.

[MickD]

My CCS for the 5 level MF70 is 452/77.  The ML XF will be lower in power, of course, and where the action angle will end up is a question, but it should be at least 75.  At the time I took these numbers my biggest likelihood for errors was in the action angle.  I've not seen any other blanks faster than this 77 measurement.  I really love my 70MF SC5.

 

St Croix 's are a little more powerful at ML than most other makers ML's .

[faygo1979]

I built something similar and Used the point blank 73ml.  It seems to be a good all around fineness blank.  I am able to cast ned rigs with it if i need to. But I primary use it for slider heads, 1/8 oz texas rigs with 4 and 6 inch worms and light cranks and topwaters.

[Andy007]

Thanks for your input!!

The 6’6 jig spin blank I have isn’t very fast either.

Gave a call to Rainshadow and they suggested revelation 6’10 ML XF. It’s a newer blank and isn’t listed on the website yet. He said when used like what I’m looking for it comes back with good reviews. After talking with them and reading more forum post I’m getting swayed more towards using a faster blank.

 

Also when talking with Rainshadow he stated sensitivity between the revelation and immortal banks weren’t much different. For those of you that have built or use both would you say the same?   

 

To many choices for something that won’t make much difference in the long run!

[MickD]

I have built a number of Immortals or what was called RX8 before they called them Immortals.  I have built 3 RX7's or Revelations as they are called now, same blanks according to Rainshadow.  I have to state that the REVIP70M popping rod is one of my favorites.  It is a medium power, a little shy of medium per CCS power=319 grams, action angle 65, which means med-fast.  It is a great rod for a lot of things, like small hard jerks, 4 inch swim baits on a bullet jig (jerked off bottom in a good cadence)  , small cranks.  The surprising thing is that the rod has such fast recovery.  Feels very sensitive.  Makes jerking very easy, and it gives a sharp enough twitch to entice Lake St Clair smallies without feeling too stiff.  Too stiff will give a fast twitch, but with little or no feel.  I'm not explaining it well, but it's a surprisingly fine blank for the money.  I would not hesitate to take the word of Rainshadow regarding the small differences between REvelation and Immortal.  They are not going to tell you they are the same, so if they say "little difference," it has to be a very little difference.  I am not recommending the 65 degree AA blank for your use, just commenting that REvelation is  very sensitive, very high performing for the money.  A real sweet spot somewhat unappreciated, like American Tackle Bushido fresh water blanks.

I'll bet, based on my experience, that the 6-10 ML XF Revelation is one sweet blank.  It sounds to me to perfect for your intended use, and with the endorsement from Rainshadow for your use, even better.  Keep in mind they could have tried to influence you to the more costly Immortals if they didn't believe in this new Revelaton.

[Andy007]

4 hours ago, MickD said:

I'll bet, based on my experience, that the 6-10 ML XF Revelation is one sweet blank.  It sounds to me to perfect for your intended use, and with the endorsement from Rainshadow for your use, even better.  Keep in mind they could have tried to influence you to the more costly Immortals if they didn't believe in this new Revelaton.

I agree they could have tried to push me towards more expensive blanks, and we did talk quite some time about the Eternity series also which I started and was interested in. He stated the quality from immortal to eternity was a big step, but the price tag is about double also. The conversation wasn't pushy or rushed and very informative; I was very pleased with their service!

 

[MickD]

Now consider the guides.  For casting I really like the Fuji system, with the #6 RV, then a couple or three KB's then the rest KT's to the tip.  I like 4.5's for casting.  I see no real need for spiral with guides as low as these and a power as low as you're talking about, but whatever you do, keep the guides on the upper half of the rod small and light for max sensitivity.

[Andy007]

31 minutes ago, MickD said:

Now consider the guides.  For casting I really like the Fuji system, with the #6 RV, then a couple or three KB's then the rest KT's to the tip.  I like 4.5's for casting.  I see no real need for spiral with guides as low as these and a power as low as you're talking about, but whatever you do, keep the guides on the upper half of the rod small and light for max sensitivity.

I'm close to that layout....I built a couple mag tapers last winter and use a spiral wrap with a spinning spacing so I could use less guides towards the tip. Fuji #8 sv striper and #6 L's for transition and running guides and turned out quite well. Will probably use smaller running guides this time.

On the subject light and sensitive...........foam vs cork? Does one deaden or transmit vibrations more?

I don't palm the reel and hold the rod by the fore grip so that's the one that counts! Might have do a split grip on the butt so I get a good balance.

 

Thanks  Andy

 

[Josh_Bovaird]

Im very happy with my Immortal blanks so I'm curious to see where this goes

[MickD]

i have no data, but I cannot believe that EVA will be as sensitive as cork.  But I think either will be fine.  I don't use EVA because I don't trust it for long term durability, long term in sense of it working for my kids.  Most sensitive and lightest is carbon fiber, clearly.  Don't do a foregrip, not necessary.  If you want something there other than the blank to touch, turn a piece of rigid poly reel seat shim to the shape you want, just under the diameter of the front of the seat paint it to match the look of the rod, then a couple coats of wrap epoxy for top coats.  I do this all the time, light sensitive, durable, good looking , good feeling to the hands.  Make sure you generously apply epoxy to the bore and blank.  This stuff can fail if you leave voids.  If you want it larger in diameter than the seat, completely finish it before installation. If you make it bigger than the seat diameter putting the last coats of wrap epoxy on will be very difficult to do cleanly.  Keep in mind that burl cork is almost twice as heavy as regular cork.  If you want weight behind the reel, it may be a good option in order to gain a little weight.

http://clients.criticalimpact.com/newsletter/newslettercontentshow1.cfm?contentid=9599&id=1069

 

[Andy007]

On 9/21/2017 at 10:57 AM, MickD said:

turn a piece of rigid poly reel seat shim to the shape you want, just under the diameter of the front of the seat paint it to match the look of the rod, then a couple coats of wrap epoxy for top coats.  I do this all the time, light sensitive, durable, good looking , good feeling to the hands

For a foregrip is needed, I hold the rod by it and like the OD a little larger for comfort. I like the idea using a larger reel seat shim and epoxy. Will it hold up for the main handhold and is it slippery when wet?

I also would thing EVA foam would adsorb more vibrations than cork. But don't if our hands could tell the difference.

 

Thanks for the Ideas!

On 9/20/2017 at 2:44 PM, Josh_Bovaird said:

Im very happy with my Immortal blanks so I'm curious to see where this goes

I wanted to try the immortal line but they don't make a ML XF just a medium XF, but maybe they will soon?

[MickD]

I have made many rods with the seat shims for ramps, and have had one failure.  It "collapsed" from finger pressure.  Post mortem showed that I had not filled the bore at the front adequately with epoxy, and there was a void which didn't support the material properly.  I repaired it and it's going strong. All of the rods pictured in the article are going strong with no distress, no dents, no dulling, no scratches, only a yellowing of the epoxy.  This shows on the rods with ivory painted shims, but not on darker colors.  It is not slippery when wet.  With some fish slime, probably, but so is cork.  Carbon fiber grips are often finished very smooth and with epoxy, and no one is complaining about them.  It is the shape that determines grip, for the most part.  I have not used this stuff for butt grips, thinking that might be too stressful.

 

I don't carry my rods around in the back of a pickup.  I think transporting rods improperly is where many get damaged and where, if the front ramps are going to get damaged, it will happen.  Just be sure not to leave any voids like I did on that one of about a ten rods.

 

You might cobble up a rod with an uplocking seat and the diameter of the front ramp equal to that of the front of the rod seat hood and see what you think of the feel. I think you'll like it.  The approx equal diameters let the hand go where it wants with almost no perception of going on and off the ramp.

[.ghoti.]

I have never disagreed with Mick an any of these rod building topics, until this thread.

regarding the fore grip. Build it to fit your hands, since that will be your primary grasp of the rod. A skinny grip that you have to hold all the time will give you hand cramps, and you will end up not using the rod.

 

Spiral wrapping is the perfect setup for lighter power rods. Do this simple test. If you have a light power casting rod, run the line through the guides, secure it to something that will not move, and put a deep flex in the rod. Carefully observe the angle of the line in relation to the butt of the rod, and do not push it to less than 90°. Don't have a light power casting rod? Use a spinning rod held upside down. As you flex the rod, you will see the tip guide rotate from the top of the rod, to the bottom. This twist is more pronounced with lighter power rods, but even the heavy rods will twist some. All of my lighter power casting rods are simple spiral wrapped, for this reason.

 

One last point. I am a proponent of mod- fast rods for most applications. For years, almost all of the uber pricey JDM sticks were regular action: what we call mod-fast. They did not start producing fast action rods until they tried to enter the American bass fishing market.

 

It is not to emulate or promote the Japanese that I say this. Mod-fast rods are more accurate than faster actions; particulary most extra-fast action rods. They cast better, and will keep the fish hooked better. The last point is more important when talking BFS.

 

Sorry Mick. I value your inputs on rod building topics, but we are gonna have to agree to disagree here.

[MickD]

No problem, ghoti.  I respect your work and opinion, too.  

 

If one likes a bigger diameter foregrip, it can still be made from rigid poly.  But it will be very difficult to finish with epoxy cleanly if it's on the rod when the finish is applied.  Do the final finish before putting it on the rod. 

 

Regarding the diameter, if you've tried an uplocking seat with the ramp about the same diameter as the hood and didn't like it, fine.  Different strokes.  But if you haven't tried it, I suggest you do.  It feels much different than a downlocking seat.  Larger diameter, smooth.  For finesse fishing it works very well.

 

I'm really interested in seeing the final build and how it works out.

[Andy007]

Mick and Ghoti Thanks again for the ideas, this rod will be built for function and won't look nearly as nice as some of yours. I might pick up some rigged poly and play with it a bit, I would need at least 1.1" diameter min And maybe offset to the bottom of the blank and maybe some finger indents? I know this will complicate the epoxy stage, but can always redo or though on shrink wrap( which I been thinking of trying also).

I probably won't post photo's but I'll try to remember to let know how it fishes, at this point that won't happen till after iceout next year

I agree that the slower action rods are much more forgiving of human error. I fish light line with the drag set close to the breaking point. If I have a decent fish at the boat that wants to shack I better be lowering the rod a bit or take the chance of snapping my line, the faster or stiffer the rod the more forgiving I need to be. If I wasn't fishing just for fun my setups would be heaver so I could just horse them into the boat, but for me playing a nice fish on light setups.....Priceless!!

[MickD]

http://www.mudhole.com/Graphite-Arbors-FA?quantity=1?quantity=1

 

The shims above come up to almost 30 mm, and are the Pac Bay shims.  These are the most rigid and solid of the ones i've used. Only problem with them, and not that big a deal, is they are black, so the dust is black and it stains a bit.  I always paint the ones I use so that there is no color difference between them if I use more than one on a rod.  Fast drying hardware store paint is fine.  Cobble a paper clip to hang them from.