Alberto Knot Problem

[MickD]

I would appreciate some help from Alberto knot enthusiasts.  I have never found a way to tie one that didn't unravel after a while.  I tried again a few days ago, was careful of getting the tag back through the leader loop the way it came in, and yet after about 1/2 hour of fishing, it just unraveled.  

 

I find it very difficult to do the wraps down away from the leader loop, then back up in a clean way.  And this may be a problem, since the wraps are nothing like the illustrations which show them so well aligned going down then back up.

 

Do you have a tip that can make this knot work every time?  There must be, because there are a lot of fishermen that swear by it.  thanks

[GrumpyOlPhartte]

I'm no expert, but I live by the Alberto knot. (Well, there is the FG knot when I'm feeling ambitious, but I prefer the Alberto knot unless I'm using heavy (20-pound or more) leader.) I did have issues similar to those you describe but have found a couple of things that have helped. My personal preference is to use eight to ten wraps up and the same number of wraps back, but there is another thread in these forums where some very knowledgeable guys express varying opinions about that.

 

First, I tie my knot the night before I go out and take my time to ensure the first ten wraps are neat and closely wrapped before I start wrapping back. I want to make sure the second set of wraps overlays the first set. 

 

Second, once the wraps are complete, I pull the standing ends as tight as I can, then pull the running ends tight. This seems to make the knot more compact and eliminates slippage. 

 

Oh, and for me, the running end of my braid has been problematic since for some reason I have difficulty cleanly cutting the braid close to the knot. I do use a drop of Loctite gel on that end of the knot and it seems to provide a bit of taper to pass through the guides more smoothly and prevent fraying. Lots of varying opinions on that as well.

 

i recommend you do a search of the forums for "Alberto knot" to get a lot of good info.  Hope this helps.

[J Francho]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOlPhartte said:

Oh, and for me, the running end of my braid has been problematic since for some reason I have difficulty cleanly cutting the braid close to the knot. I do use a drop of Loctite gel on that end of the knot and it seems to provide a bit of taper to pass through the guides more smoothly and prevent fraying. Lots of varying opinions on that as well.

Can't really help the OP, it just takes practice.  But for this, a couple of half hitches will do the same, and you can lose the super glue.

[tkunk]

If you put the tag end through the loop the wrong way, the knot will easily come apart when you tighten it. So either you didn't tighten it hard enough (if you had, the knot would've pulled apart), or you actually did put the tag end through the loop the right way, but something else went wrong.

 

Besides tightening the knot hard, the main thing is to make sure that when you're wrapping in one direction, the loops don't overlap; e.g., when you're moving downward, the third loop shouldn't be above the second loop. One thing that helps prevent overlaps is to make sure that the wraps are far apart when you go down and far apart when you go back up. In other words, the knot will be "long" before you tighten it. Then, tighten the knot slowly to make sure that the loops going in same direction don't overlap.

 

Someone else can probably explain that better, but that's what works for me.

 

Finally, I'm not sure if it applies to you, but FG knot seems to work much better for very light braid. I can't get an alberto knot to hold on 2-5 lb braid.

[snake95]

20 minutes ago, portiabrat said:

One thing that helps prevent overlaps is to make sure that the wraps are far apart when you go down and far apart when you go back up. In other words, the knot will be "long" before you tighten it.

I also take the same approach with the overlaps on the way "down."  I find this helps me make sure the loops on the way back "up" are generally within the "grooves" so that the strands don't overlap.

 

Another couple of approaches I have adopted:

I pull the tag line to create the tightest wrap possible at the end, where the last loop is, before starting to come back up.

 

I use a bit of a crazy mnemonic when starting and finishing inserting the tag line into and out of the loop in the leader.

 

Bring the line in from the bottom/go over the "hump" of the loop/start the first wrap (e.g. "under/bump/first wrap") then say it in reverse on the way out ("last wrap/bump/under").  

 

If I get distracted or confused doing the start or end wrap, I never take a chance and always start over.

[Darren.]

3 hours ago, MickD said:

I would appreciate some help from Alberto knot enthusiasts.  I have never found a way to tie one that didn't unravel after a while.  I tried again a few days ago, was careful of getting the tag back through the leader loop the way it came in, and yet after about 1/2 hour of fishing, it just unraveled.  

 

I find it very difficult to do the wraps down away from the leader loop, then back up in a clean way.  And this may be a problem, since the wraps are nothing like the illustrations which show them so well aligned going down then back up.

 

Do you have a tip that can make this knot work every time?  There must be, because there are a lot of fishermen that swear by it.  thanks

Mick, I had trouble with the Alberto (mod'd Albright) when using

a thin, slick leader of say 4 or 6# test - specifically P-Line Floroclear,

and 10# Power Pro.

 

What I found that fixed it was more wraps up, and a few more wraps

back down the line before putting the tag end back through. 

 

For example, if I normally did 10 wraps up, 4 wraps down using 6 or 8

lb test, I'd go 15 up 7 down for 4lb... Experimentation is key.

 

That was a rule of thumb I read (not here) that if you're having trouble

go more in both directions. This all without glue, as well.

 

Mostly use the Uni-to-Uni these days, though Alberto on occasion.

[NHBull]

Just like everyone else has said......and

 

Try to wipe off any coating on the braid before you tie.

 

It is surprising how slick the braid can be

[Crestliner2008]

I'm in agreement with "GrumpyOlePhartte" here. I love the Alberto. And here's a hint, the higher the rating of your line strength, the more wraps you can/should use. I do a lot crappie fishing with 2# test Fireline Crystal. I start out with 7 wraps up and 5 wraps down. Have not experienced the failures described here.

 

When I'm drop shotting with 6# test Fireline, I wrap 9 up and 7 down. I'd do the same for 12# - 17# test as well. It is important to wet the knot and SLOWLY pull it together. And it is important to snip the tag ends close, so as not to cause hang problems going through the guides. I use to use a dab of super glue on the windings, but no more. And have not experienced any negatives by doing so. a GREAT knot!

 

[bigturtle]

take extra long length of line and make sure you wraps are spaced further apart. this will help the return wrap go between the out going ones. once you get better, you can waste less line and tie better

[Further North]

I may be stating the obvious...but make certain the loop is the mono/leader and the wraps are made with the braid...

[bassguytom]

I use this when using Gliss line. After you wrap up and back down and go through the loop wrap 3 more times then go through the loop again. Wet it and pull it tight. You should be good to go. 

[MickD]

Thanks, guys.  A lot to try, will do it.  I was using 15 pound braid and 15 FC and using 6 wraps.  I think more wraps, pulling tight before wrapping back up, then the 3 extras after the initial tag through the loop will be my focus.  I use the FG most of the time, but it's tough in the boat so I'd like a faster, reliable knot.  My double uni is bullet proof, but too big for some micros.

[GrumpyOlPhartte]

@J Francho: I never thought of the half hitches. Tried them with the FG knot with less than satisfactory results; they seemed to come loose so I had to learn the rizzuto finish. May have better luck here. Thanks!

[MickD]

Pretty interesting responses.  For the last year I've heard from many on the forum that the Alberto was THE line to line knot, "bullet-proof," no problems mentioned, no glue necessary, and now it looks like I'm not even close to being the only one with problems with this knot.  It is supposed to be the "improved Albright," but it looks like it's not improved at all, at least with the pound tests used most in fresh water.  Seems to me that the "improved Alberto," with the features suggested by all of you, should be given a new name and be considered a new knot so as not to mislead those who just look up the instructions for the Alberto and have it fail on them.   Who wants to name it?  :-)

[OkobojiEagle]

20 hours ago, Crestliner2008 said:

And it is important to snip the tag ends close, so as not to cause hang problems going through the guides.

I will disagree with this when using PE lines.  The nylon/fluoro tag needs to be clipped as close to the knot as possible... it's encapsulated within the knot so no problem short.  The PE line is coated and slippery... no amount of tightening is going to prevent the PE knot from slipping slightly.  Give yourself a small margin for error... leave 3/8" - 1/2" tag on the PE line.  I tie my alberto knot carefully and tighten it as much as I'm able, leaving 1/2" of PE tag and find that after catching a fish or two (or a couple snags) the PE tag has shortened to 1/4" of less... That soft PE tag is not going to be a problem traveling through your guides.

 

oe

[Team9nine]

No new name needed here. I tie it like all the diagrams show, give or take an extra wrap or two, and have never had an issue with this knot. If it ever fails or causes problems, then you did something wrong when tying it. Like the Palomar, it's the closest thing to bulletproof I've found.

[MickD]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

No new name needed here. I tie it like all the diagrams show, give or take an extra wrap or two, and have never had an issue with this knot. If it ever fails or causes problems, then you did something wrong when tying it. Like the Palomar, it's the closest thing to bulletproof I've found.

It may be bulletproof for you , but it's obvious it isn't for everyone.  I've never had a palomar fail, maybe because there is hardly a way to do anything wrong.  It's a "robust" design.  I've tried for a couple years to do the Alberto following the diagrams, and still there is something going wrong. It's a "fragile" design.    Even you admit to "give or take an extra wrap or two."  Why, if it's such a robust knot when tied according to the diagrams, would you ever add an extra wrap or two?  Not trying to cause trouble, but just pointing out what appears to be a logical discrepancy.  I'm looking forward to trying some of the ideas presented.  Might make it more robust for me.

[Team9nine]

You can easily tie a bad Palomar, and most instructional diagrams of the knot fall short in this regard. It all centers around what you do with the loop formed in the beginning.

 

As for the Alberto, it is similar in that more exactness in crosses is better than not, but whether you use 5 or 6 or 7 wraps up/back won't make a noticeable difference in strength. The knot is still 30% stronger than a uni-uni, so even slight variations in strength still make it superior in that regard...and look how many people swear by that knot. 

 

Some knots are simply more challenging to tie for some than others. I have ones I struggle with, too. My point is that if tied as shown in the diagrams, regardless of how many wraps they suggest, this knot is solid. Any failure I've ever had with it can be traced back to something I screwed up when tying it.

 

The best thing, though not always possible, is to have someone who is familiar with the knot watch you tie it. Sometimes it's hard to figure out what you're doing wrong when you're not quite sure what "wrong" is...

 

As for tips, I hold the loop and the line going through it pinched with my thumb and forefinger, then wrap up with my left hand. After wrapping up, switch and pinch the top of that sequence with your left thumb and forefinger, then wrap down with your right hand. I'm right- handed, and that seems to keep everything in place we'll.

[MickD]

Thanks, I'll try your method.  I've been practicing for the last hour , and what I have found is that the suggestion to tie it "long/loose" is giving a much better looking knot than I was getting as the wraps end up alternating cleanly rather than some being on top of each other.  I settled on 6 wraps each way.  One thing I did which I think will prevent unraveling is putting the tag end through twice before tightening, then wet it, and progressively tighten it while gently pulling on the tag end now and then to prevent a loop in it from being trapped.  In the end, the tag at the end of the knot is tightly trapped.  I also am probably now pulling it tighter than I did before which has to be positive.  It takes me longer than a double uni, so I'll use the Alberto when I need a more compact knot and don't want to spend the time tiying an FG.  I hope I don't come back with "Well, that didn't work either."

 

By the way, once I tighten it very firmly, then give it a bunch of hard jerks, that tag end is going nowhere, not a mm.