Spin or Fly: It’s Time to Think Outside the Box

[Further North]

Spin or Fly: It’s Time to Think Outside the Box

I have a confession to make: I bought my first spinning rod and reel in more than 20 years.

I admit it. I’m a diehard fly-only, fly fisherman. I grew with the old closed face, Zebco reels, but once I got the long rod in my hand, I never wanted to let it go.

Was I stubborn? Maybe. The truth is I fell in love with making a rod bend and forming a loop.

However, my passion for fly casting recently ran smack into a dose of reality. Traditionally, I’ve fished the Florida salt — in Tampa, Jupiter, St. Augustine, but recently switched to freshwater when I moved inland —- to the banks of the Santa Fe River in North Florida.

My river house has a platform on the water that backs up to a treeline. There’s no floating dock and no way to cast a fly. If I wanted to fish in my backyard, spinning gear was the only way to go. Passion yielded to pragmatism and I bought a spinning outfit and a batch of Rooster Tail spinners from the local True Value hardware store, a development that led to the idea for this blog post: What can gear fishermen learn from fly fishermen and vice versa?

I called upon Collins Illich, Vice President/Bass Category Manager of TFO, for a bit of insight on how fly and gear anglers can learn from each type of fishing. Collins is a former fly shop owner and fly fishing guide. He also fishes with traditional gear. Below are a few excerpts of our conversation.

TFO: What can gear fishermen learn from fly fishermen?

CI: “The number one thing fly fishermen have that gear fishermen are trying to do. … There’s a whole category of gear fishing that’s called finesse fishing. No matter how finesse you get with a baitcaster or a spinning reel, you are never going to be as finesse as you are with a fly rod. Fly fishermen represent the ultimate in finesse fishing. Associated with finesse fishing, I would talk about precision. Gear fishermen in the bass category, they’re going to cover a lot of water quickly. They make a lot of casts. Fly fishermen are much more precise, more methodical traditionally. One thing that I try to visualize when I’m trying to get guys to cross over is if I’m fishing a specific piece of water, but I only care about the first three feet of the retrieve, if I fish with a fly rod, I can cast, make the first few feet of the retrieve and cast again. You can’t do that with a baitcasting rod. The methodical nature of fly fishing is a good lesson. The finesse of fly fishing is a good lesson for the gear fisherman. You’re seeing a lot of techniques in the gear side adapted from the fly side. You’re seeing bass fishermen use bucktail jigs.”

TFO: Is it realistic to expect the gear fishermen to acquire the finesse without the fly rod and fly?

CI: “It’s how you use a rod, how you use a bait. They’re all realistic. Studying other fishermen is going to make you a better fisherman. There’s an expression Rick Pope uses here at TFO: A master mechanic has more than just a crescent wrench in his toolbox. You can literally take a rabbit strip fly — rabbit strip is one of the most effective materials in terms of enticing a fish to bite —- you can take that instead of a soft plastic and drop shot it on 6-pound mono or 6-pound fluoro and catch fish that you would have never caught (before), heavily pressured fish.

TFO: I know (pro bass fisherman) Shaw Grigbsy is a big fly fisherman:

CI: “Best sight fisherman in the world.”

TFO: I heard Roland Martin is a big fly fisherman as well.

CI: “I’ve fished with Roland Martin. That’s cool. It doesn’t surprise me that Shaw Grigsby is a fly fisherman. As you slow down and as you get more precise with you casts, you’re going to become a better fly fisherman. No one questions whether Shaw Grigsby is the best sight fisherman among the elites.”

TFO: Now for the second half of the equation: What can fly anglers learn from gear fishermen?

CI: “The first and most effective thing is to fish deep. The number one limitation that people complain about in fly fishing outside of the wind is fishing deep. Seeing how a gear fisherman positions himself and studies the water and uses various columns and how he uses electronics, you don’t see a fly-fishing guide with $3,000 graph on their boat very often. There’s a reason the gear fisherman has that; he’s looking at water; he’s looking at water temperature; he’s looking at structure. He’s looking at ways to present a bait in 30 feet of water, in 20 feet of water, in 12 feet of water that the fly fisherman would have never even tried without watching a gear fisherman do it.

“The other thing would be (to speed up) and it’s the inverse of teaching a gear fisherman to slow down. Well, a gear fisherman can teach a fly fisherman to how to speed things up. If you fish a bait efficiently, you can fish it very, very quickly, especially if you’re skipping spots. Learn where the fish are. Don’t fish the open water. Fish the water with the fish in it. Both can teach efficiency, but on a different spectrum. One faster. One is slower.

“I would talk less about teaching it and more about enjoying it. If I’m a fly fisherman fishing Toledo Bend with a fly rod, I’m enjoying it. I’ve got a three-day trip. This is awesome. Then day three, it’s raining and the temperature’s dropped 10 degrees overnight and we’re blowing 30 miles an hour, and I don’t know how to gear fish, I’m not going to be able to fish effectively. Learning how to broaden your scope will make you a better fisherman, let you fish in more conditions and let you enjoy more of it.”

https://tforods.com/spin-fly-time-think-outside-box/

 

______________________________________________________________

 

I switch back and forth between fly fishing and gear fishing all the time...lots of benefits:

1. Show the fish something they haven't been seeing...show a bass or a pressured musky a fly, show a trout a soft plastic rig...
2. Lessens fatigue...sure, I can do either all day...but why do that if there's an option.
3. There's a lot of presentations, tactics, strategies, gear...and things as simple as knots...that work great in both worlds that most people don't cross-over.

...and that's just for starters...

[A-Jay]

Fly fishing for bass is fun & challenging. 

Although admittedly not an expert by any means I do it a few times each season, just to stay in shape & with some success.

During the annual big mayfly hatch here, sometimes it's about the only way even interest the smallmouth. 

Couple of factors do limit it's effectiveness.  By & large the bass need to be fairly shallow, or seriously interested in an on or near the surface presentation.  Heavy cover is mostly a no go.  

 However, when the conditions are right - it can be about as good as it gets.  

A big smallie on a 5 wt can be enough to turn any gear angler into an addicted fly fishing fool in short order.

A-Jay

[bigbill]

I was watching a Bill Dance tv video on him fly fishing for bass. I seen short strikes behind his fly that the camera picked up on the side view but no one said anything. Seeing this made me adapt to it. I watch behind my shallow running baits and surface baits a lot more now. The short strikes tells me to slow down the speed or change colors or change baits.

 

just a tip.

[Further North]

I think one of the things I learned bouncing back and forth between gear and fly fishing is that there are ways to get deep (not 30 feet kind if deep, but 8 to 10 feet is doable.

 

Also...I don't use a 5 wt.  There's no way anyone would want to throw the flies I throw at bass on a 5 wt., at least not for long.  Tailing loops and new unintentional piercings would be the result. 

 

The smallest rod I'd use for bass is a 6 wt...and that's not very often.  Most often I'm using an 8 wt., sometimes a 7.

 

Here's some examples from last Sunday:

 

 

 

 

 

The fly in the first two is about 2 1/2" long and is miserable to throw with a 6 wt., the fly in the 2nd two pictures is about 7" long, and I hauled that largemouth out of a snarl of sunken tree limbs about 8 feet deep.

 

One thing that bass fishermen that haven't tried flies yet will find interesting: you have one hand on the line most of the time...you'll feel even the lightest takes.

[A-Jay]

Agreed a 5wt is a little light - but that's all I had when I started out - it worked but so did I.

Since added a 7wt St Croix ( Bank Robber) it's really sweet.

A-Jay

[Further North]

I've got that same rod.  I've got a Cabela's RLS reel on it with a Scientific Angler's Hover line on it. It's a killer combination.

[A-Jay]

Just now, Further North said:

I've got that same rod.  I've got a Cabela's RLS reel on it with a Scientific Angler's Hover line on it. It's a killer combination.

That's really funny - I have the same reel as well !

- I think I got it as a combo special that Cabelas was running a few years back.

I don't remember what line I have on it - but it needs to be replaced . . . 

A-Jay

 

[Further North]

Just now, A-Jay said:

That's really funny - I have the same reel as well !

- I think I got it as a combo special that Cabelas was running a few years back.

I don't remember what line I have on it - but it needs to be replaced . . . 

A-Jay

 

That's how I got mine as well.  It came with a Kelly Galloup sinking streamer line that I still have around here somewhere...I found it too heavy for wadeable river smalies around here...the Hover solves that problem for flies I want to run just under the surface...if you keep the weight out of the flies when you tie them.

[flyfisher]

Good stuff right there.  I love to fly fish for bass and trout.  Trout is 100% on the fly and bass is probably 60/40 conventional.  For me it is another tool to use.  I can and have caught bass as deep as 10' on the fly rod but it just wasn't fun for me any deeper so i usually go conventional after 10'.  

My absolute favorite way to use the fly rod is picking apart a lilly pad field or heavy vegetation.  You can drop flies on pockets and holes that you just can't do with a conventional set up as effectively.  it is also a blast to pull them out of the slop   Now I also have a rod that is designed of that type of assault and it is straight money...Sage Bass II Largemouth series.  

 

Also ironically enough, some of my very best days were when it was cold, like 45 degree water temps.  I am guessing the more natural and slow presentation with a fly translated to success.  

man, now i really want to get out.....

[A-Jay]

3 minutes ago, Further North said:

That's how I got mine as well.  It came with a Kelly Galloup sinking streamer line that I still have around here somewhere...I found it too heavy for wadeable river smalies around here...the Hover solves that problem for flies I want to run just under the surface...if you keep the weight out of the flies when you tie them.

 

Yup ~ That's the one.

Small world - but I wouldn't want to paint it . . . 

A-Jay

Just now, flyfisher said:

Good stuff right there.  I love to fly fish for bass and trout.  Trout is 100% on the fly and bass is probably 60/40 conventional.  For me it is another tool to use.  I can and have caught bass as deep as 10' on the fly rod but it just wasn't fun for me any deeper so i usually go conventional after 10'.  

My absolute favorite way to use the fly rod is picking apart a lilly pad field or heavy vegetation.  You can drop flies on pockets and holes that you just can't do with a conventional set up as effectively.  it is also a blast to pull them out of the slop   Now I also have a rod that is designed of that type of assault and it is straight money...Sage Bass II Largemouth series.  

 

Also ironically enough, some of my very best days were when it was cold, like 45 degree water temps.  I am guessing the more natural and slow presentation with a fly translated to success.  

man, now i really want to get out.....

 

Sweet Stick ~ That one's on my 'list'.

A-Jay

[Further North]

1 minute ago, flyfisher said:

...I also have a rod that is designed of that type of assault and it is straight money...Sage Bass II Largemouth series.  

How do you like it?

 

I tried one of their pike/musky rods up in Canada and was underwhelmed...but it was an 11 wt...way heavier than I like for anything...

[flyfisher]

6 minutes ago, Further North said:

How do you like it?

 

I tried one of their pike/musky rods up in Canada and was underwhelmed...but it was an 11 wt...way heavier than I like for anything...

I love it.  It is a specialized rod though and you aren't going to get those perfect pretty casts all the time but for shooting line it is fantastic.  The line that it comes with is a perfect weight and head size for the rod itself.  It takes some getting used to because of it's stiffness and it's shorter length.  I honestly think you could cast a wet sock if you wanted to....You just gotta let the rod do the work and get a reel that is balanced.

I want to get the bluegill model for smaller creeks and smallmouth around here.  It would be a perfect compliment to the LM model and my good old reliable 7wt XP (my favorite fly rod i have ever owned).

[Further North]

Last weekend I had the front deck set up with six fly rods:

 

1. 7 wt. St. Croix Bank robber, Scientific Angler Hover line on a Cabela's RLS reel (one of the absolute best deals out there in a fly reel!). CRSing on what fly I've got on there right now.
2. 8 wt. TFO Axiom, Rio Outbound Short Intermediate on a Nautilus reel.  This is my "heavy" set up, for getting bigger flies out a ways. This has an orange/yellow weedless hollow-tie on it.
3. 8 wt. TFO Mangrove, Scientific Anglers Clear Intermediate tip on a Lamson Guru HD 3.5, that's the one I used with the baitfish pattern last Sunday.
4. 8 wt. Scott S2, Airflo Bass floating line, Lamson Speedster 3.5, that's the one with the Ol' Mr. Wiggly on it.
5. 9 wt. Cabela's L-Tech Salt, Airflo Pike/Musky floating line on a Lamson Lightspeed 3.5.  There's one of my hollow-tie-on-a-7/0 EWG hook flies on that one right now. This rig is so light you'd think it was an 8 wt.
6. 10 wt. TFO Axiom, Rio Outbound Short type VI sinking line on a Lamson Speedster 4.0...there's another weedless hollow tie on that one, made with blue and purple wig hair from a wig my daughter wore for Halloween a few years back.  THat's the one that tricked the musky Sunday.

...and the back deck set up with 4 gear rods:

 

1. St. Croix Avid X ML with Abu Garcia LTX, Weightless Texas Rigged Senko.
2. St Croix Legend Extreme MLXF spinning rod with a Quantum Reel, Hula grub on a shakey head.
3. Custom made 7 ft. "crankbait" rod, Diawa Tatula CT Type R, #5 red and White Mepps dual blade.
4. 7'3" TFO, Cabela's Arachanid 7:1 (It's a Tatula clone), Texas rigged (over wire leader) Smokin' Rooster.

Only the Senko, the Ol' Mr. Wiggly and the baitfish patterns produced bass, but they produced over 30 of them...and the wig-fly pulled the musky...so crossover was a good tactic that day!

 

 

42 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

I love it.  It is a specialized rod though and you aren't going to get those perfect pretty casts all the time but for shooting line it is fantastic.  The line that it comes with is a perfect weight and head size for the rod itself.  It takes some getting used to because of it's stiffness and it's shorter length.  I honestly think you could cast a wet sock if you wanted to....You just gotta let the rod do the work and get a reel that is balanced.

 

Quote

I want to get the bluegill model for smaller creeks and smallmouth around here.  It would be a perfect compliment to the LM model and my good old reliable 7wt XP (my favorite fly rod i have ever owned).

Thanks for the review!

Looks like a Lamson Lightspeed reel?  Which size?

I've had my share of stiff fly rods - those TFO Axioms can be telephone poles with the wrong line on them, and I had a Winston 10 wt. that could have been used as a construction crane.  I've been interested in that Sage because of the length...thinking it might improve accuracy at the slight cost of distance.

 

...and perfect loops are over-rated...and you'll not get a lot them checking bass flies.

[flyfisher]

it is a lightspeed  hard allox i'll have to check onto size but i want to say it is a 3.5.  I probably could have gone with a 3 but i had a good deal on this one so i went with it.

[Further North]

I think the Lightspeed reels are my favorite Lamson reels.  I've got on in 2.0 on a 7 ft. 3 wt...it's a jewel of a reel, the one I mention above on the L-Tech, a 3.5 like yours, but th eprevious version, and 4.0 the same version as yours on a 10 wt. St. Croix Legend X.

 

The 3.5 really hits the sweet-spot on 7 wt. and 8 wt. rods...I think the 3.0 would have been too light.

[flyfisher]

You can cast the LM into the backing if you want to but i have never felt the need other than to see if i could do it   I also think that technically the LM rod is a 10wt based on the line weight but it is pretty specialized and i don't think it truly compares.  

if you like the light speed reels, keep an eye out on sierra trading post, seems like Lamson unloads their reels there when new models come out or a redesign happens.

[islandbass]

Great topic. My greatest "fear" is finally giving fly fishing a try. Why? Because my spinning and casting gear might start collecting dust. I have this gut feeling I'm going to really like it a lot. I also know that I would definitely be making my own flies. My bait monkey has been dormant like a volcano, but he'd wake up if I went down the fly fishing road, lol. Someone gave me a multiple piece fly rod but first I'll need to find it and see what its weight rating is. 

[Further North]

1 minute ago, flyfisher said:

You can cast the LM into the backing if you want to but i have never felt the need other than to see if i could do it  

I'm the same way.  Good to know I can do it, have never ever tried on the water...

 

 

3 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

if you like the light speed reels, keep an eye out on sierra trading post, seems like Lamson unloads their reels there when new models come out or a redesign happens.

That's hilarious...I was just going to PM you a link to STP...they are selling out Lightspeed 3.5s and 4.0s for really good prices.

I'm going to have to look away before I get myself in trouble there...

 

[Further North]

11 minutes ago, islandbass said:

Great topic. My greatest "fear" is finally giving fly fishing a try. Why? Because my spinning and casting gear might start collecting dust. I have this gut feeling I'm going to really like it a lot. I also know that I would definitely be making my own flies. My bait monkey has been dormant like a volcano, but he'd wake up if I went down the fly fishing road, lol. Someone gave me a multiple piece fly rod but first I'll need to find it and see what its weight rating is. 

I love tying bass and pike/musky flies...and some trout streamers.

 

Can't stand tying the itty bitty trout flies (I lack that kind of patience)...so I just buy those, they're cheap.

 

If you're just starting out, don't get sucked into the crazy expensive gear.  I highly recommend rods like the Cabela's LSi and their "house brand" reels like the RLS.  I slight step above those rods are the Temple Fork Outfitters rods I've mentioned - I really like those.

 

I'd spend time and money there before I jumped into the Sage - Winston - Orvis - G Loomis waters...you can dump half a grand or more then in th eblink of an eye and wind up with something you figure out later you don't like...

 

EBay is also your friend.  Lotta folks buy fly gear and never use it...or give up after a few tries...and sell it off cheap.  That's where I get almost all my stuff...

[islandbass]

Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to do that. Any advice on for reels? I get the impression that when fly fishing the reel just stores the line while the hand not holding the rod "manages" the line during the battle. And that looks like it's a blast. 

[Further North]

As you can see, I'm a big Lamson reel fan...but don't ignore the Cabela's RLS...I thnk it might be the  RLS II now.  I've got two of those, one on a 5 wt. nymph rod, one on the St. Croix Bank Robber mentioned above. 

 

I've also got a couple of Nautilus reels, love them, but they are spendy unless you trip over a good deal.

 

Sage, Cheeky, Echo, Hardy...TFO has some reels...hard to find bad ones made by reputable companies.  Chinese junk is Chinese junk, just like it is with any other gear...you get what you pay for, to a point.

 

Regarding the reel storing the line...that works OK...until you get into a fish with some size, or with some power...at that point, you're going to want to get the line on the reel and play the fish from there.  You don't want that line on deck or even floating around you in current when you've got a decent fish on...it'll tangle on everything...twice...and you do not want that to be the reason you loose a fish and break off a fly.

 

That largemouth above, and the musky on Sunday were both brought in with the line on the reel...the musky was unhappy about the hook and made a good run with a tail walk thrown in to let me know that...not something you want to try to control with the line wrapped 'round your shoes, the fish finder, the rope cleats and pliers you left on deck...

[islandbass]

Thanks!

[fishwizzard]

I plan on getting a fly rod at some point, as I am running out of ways to justify new casting/spinning combos to myself.  I also want to learn to tie first, which I am working on now with limited success.  

 

However, I am immediately going to steal the idea of using rabbit fur as a drop shot lure.  I could tie a little forked strip to a DS hook and have a far more durable lure then a plastic.  

[islandbass]

1 minute ago, Bunnielab said:

I plan on getting a fly rod at some point, as I am running out of ways to justify new casting/spinning combos to myself.  I also want to learn to tie first, which I am working on now with limited success.  

 

However, I am immediately going to steal the idea of using rabbit fur as a drop shot lure.  I could tie a little forked strip to a DS hook and have a far more durable lure then a plastic.  

Now that's one heck of an excellent idea.  Not to look around my garage and find my vice, lol.  I haven't used it since I made feathered trebles for poppers and palmered style jigs with marabou feathers for salmon quite a few years ago, lol.