Balance vs. Overall Weight

[fissure_man]

Rod makers have a few more options, but not many, right?   Unless the rod or handle length is changing, it essentially comes down to adding/removing weight in one form or another.  A long, heavy power rod is going to take some mass-y components to balance even with a light blank and guides; I wonder what is the best strategy finish the handle end, keeping in mind weight, comfort, sensitivity, balance, inertia/momentum, …. ?

 

It’s a good point that adding ‘concentrated’ mass to the butt might cause some unwanted inertial effects.  But looking at simple rotation around the hand grip, achieving the same balance with more mass distributed further up the handle would also cause similar (but somewhat less severe) inertial effects and would increase the overall weight added to the blank (it’s a ‘balancing act’ ).  Momentum might be worse, depending on the motion we're talking about.

 

I’d expect the felt inertia when you pivot a casting rod/reel in your hand is dominated by the mass of the rod ahead of the handle, being distributed further from the pivot, but I don’t really know… And I have no idea how noticeable the difference would be between say 1/2 oz at the butt vs. 1 oz halfway between the butt and grip (to achieve equal balance).  It’s would be individual too, depending on casting/retrieving mechanics…

[MickD]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

 

I guess I would push back and say that it depends how you define 'balance.' Every rod has a balancing point somewhere along the blank, reel or no reel, long or short. As you mentioned, adding a reel shifts that balancing point, but doesn't necessarily make a rod "balanced." For example, where you hold the rod (and many of us hold them differently) will affect whether a rod feels balanced to you. Which reel you add will also affect this. My point was that the rods that feel and fish best to me (are "balanced") require no modification on my part given the reels I use and how I hold my rods. They are great right off the shelf. Many are not, and they get less use, or are tolerated or sold.

I'll bet the rods that you say are "balanced" tend to be shorter, lighter power,  and more expensive than ones that you consider not as well balanced.  Do you have a 7 1/2 foot MH casting rod that you consider "balanced?"  And I'll bet you use very light reels.  

 

I agree with your comment on "depending on how you define balance."   However, you also mention that every rod has a balance point, which is true.  It is a point that is not affected by anything.  It is what it is.  It is the point on the rod where the left half and the right half weigh the same.  Pure physics, not opinion.  And the position of the balance  point on the rod will be affected by the reel attached to it unless that reel weighs zero or is placed at the exactly same point as the rod-only balance point.     We don't fish with just a rod, or just a reel; we fish with an assembly made from a rod and a reel, not to mention a lure on the end of it. (Man, does that affect the "balance.")  

 

The problem in discussing balance without having the reel involved is that less experienced anglers can be misled by thinking that what he thinks is balanced in the store will also be balanced when he adds his not-so-expensive relatively heavy reel to it.  And a 3/4 ounce lure.  

[fissure_man]

@MickD - lots of folks palm their casting reels, gripping pretty close to the center of gravity of the reel.  If the reel is sitting right on the pivot point where you’re seeking balance, the weight of the reel doesn't really matter (it’s like piling bricks onto the center of a see-saw).  In the original post I mentioned that I was referring to balance about the center of the reel seat, where reel weight has minimal influence.

 

The ‘balance point’ usually changes when you add a reel, and often it changes a lot (this is because essentially zero rods are balanced at the reel seat to start with).  But IMO discussing ‘balance point’ is more misleading – it doesn’t tell you the whole story.  If a rod + 10 oz reel balances at 2” ahead of the reel, is it as well-balanced as a rod + 5 oz reel that also balances at 2" ahead of the reel?  I wouldn’t say so, unless you are actually gripping the rod at 2” ahead of the reel (like some do).  In that case both would be neutrally balanced, though one is much heavier.

 

If you’re gripping ahead of or behind the center of gravity of the reel, then reel weight will start to affect the balance you feel a lot.  This is another reason why (IMO) some enterprising rod maker should add a slick system for custom balancing – we all use different grips, reels, and have different balance preferences (tip-heavy, tip-light, neutral).  Let us decide

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, fissure_man said:

Rod makers have a few more options, but not many, right?   Unless the rod or handle length is changing, it essentially comes down to adding/removing weight in one form or another.  A long, heavy power rod is going to take some mass-y components to balance even with a light blank and guides; I wonder what is the best strategy finish the handle end, keeping in mind weight, comfort, sensitivity, balance, inertia/momentum, …. ?

 

It’s a good point that adding ‘concentrated’ mass to the butt might cause some unwanted inertial effects.  But looking at simple rotation around the hand grip, achieving the same balance with more mass distributed further up the handle would also cause similar (but somewhat less severe) inertial effects and would increase the overall weight added to the blank (it’s a ‘balancing act’ ).  Momentum might be worse, depending on the motion we're talking about.

 

I’d expect the felt inertia when you pivot a casting rod/reel in your hand is dominated by the mass of the rod ahead of the handle, being distributed further from the pivot, but I don’t really know… And I have no idea how noticeable the difference would be between say 1/2 oz at the butt vs. 1 oz halfway between the butt and grip (to achieve equal balance).  It’s would be individual too, depending on casting/retrieving mechanics…

 

I can tell you that on my worst balanced rods (long, heavy sticks) that I have added butt caps and weights to to balance them, while you end up getting the desired balance, you can definitely feel the effect of having the added weight on the back end of the rod when you cast. Additionally, since most casts aren't simply wrist rotation, but also involve some arm movement, the momentum/inertia feeling just made things seem really awkward for me. Add in the loss of sensitivity, and I have since removed and stopped using any of the aftermarket add-ons for rod balancing.

 

 

1 hour ago, MickD said:

I'll bet the rods that you say are "balanced" tend to be shorter, lighter power,  and more expensive than ones that you consider not as well balanced.  Do you have a 7 1/2 foot MH casting rod that you consider "balanced?"  And I'll bet you use very light reels.  

 

I agree with your comment on "depending on how you define balance."   However, you also mention that every rod has a balance point, which is true.  It is a point that is not affected by anything.  It is what it is.  It is the point on the rod where the left half and the right half weigh the same.  Pure physics, not opinion.  And the position of the balance  point on the rod will be affected by the reel attached to it unless that reel weighs zero or is placed at the exactly same point as the rod-only balance point.     We don't fish with just a rod, or just a reel; we fish with an assembly made from a rod and a reel, not to mention a lure on the end of it. (Man, does that affect the "balance.")  

 

The problem in discussing balance without having the reel involved is that less experienced anglers can be misled by thinking that what he thinks is balanced in the store will also be balanced when he adds his not-so-expensive relatively heavy reel to it.  And a 3/4 ounce lure.  

 

You are correct that the longest rods I own (7'3"-7'6") have the "worst" balance (relatively speaking), but not so much on the price point aspect. My best balancing spinning rods range from 6'2" - 7'0", and have a price range between $49 (Berkley Lightning Rod) and $270 (Loomis & Custom builds). My best casting rods range from 6'0"-7'0" and have a price range from $40 (Lightning Rod, again) to $230 (Loomis).

 

On the balance point, if you start with just a rod blank and give it to two different builders/manufacturers, you can end up with two very different balance points for the same rod based on the components used and things such as guide number and spacing, materials, reel seats, butt length, etc., etc., so I would say you can have a big effect on that balance point, which goes back to my point of the best balanced rods are already built toward that end.

 

By measuring several parameters of all the rods I own, I have come up with a formula that lets me know pretty well how balanced a rod will be before I even buy it, assuming I can get those parameter measurements in advance. Not too difficult in a store, but much more challenging if buying online. It works for me... and things like reel weight and lure weight don't seem to play as big a role as some might think.

[MickD]

I agree with everything you say.  Regarding weights, I used to try balancing by adding weights to the butt with a BPS system, and by the time I got one old rod back then balanced, it almost left my hand when casting once.  I build my own now and use hi performance blanks (light, expensive usually-the basis of my comments on expensive and power are that expensive will get you the lightest blanks and lower  power will do the same, as will shorter) and I build as light as reasonably possible for the job to be done, and I never add weight to balance.  The  length of the rod below the handle is dictated by what I've found works FOR ME without hanging up on my clothing.  I know that YOU can tell handling a rod without the reel that it will be good or not for you.  But you are a pretty experienced, expert, evaluator of what works for you.  I think the reason that one can say that reel and lure weight don't seem to play a major role is that the equipment most of us use is pretty light, and the lighter it is, the less important balance is.  IMHO.  Good discussion.