Fish Deaths in Livewells.

[RossCo91]

Hey everyone, 

I'm looking for some advice,

I am having a problem with fish deaths in my livewells, 

To give you some background, I am from South Africa our waters may not be as clean as you have them in the states but we have 50 boats on the water and none of them are experencing this problem on the scale I have.

I have a Skeeter, which is two seperate livewells, Spray bars and Oxygenators.
I fill up my one well when I get my first fish, and fill up the second when I have my 3rd fish,

I have spray bar on auto every few minutes, and I also pump in new water on auto at the same time.

This is mainly happening at one dam where one side of it is Gin Clear and the other at the moment has a thick green slime from hyacinth. 

I had this problem in the left hand well and not the right to begin with, I'd check my fish every 30minutes and one interval to the next all 3 of them would be dead belly up, sometimes already stiff, at first I thought this was after I run to a spot which takes me 20/30 min. 

However I cleaned my leftwell throughly with Miltons ( used to clean babies bottles ) as it was recommended and had not been back to that dam in a while, I never really had problems for the past two months, However this past weekend I did go back to that dam for a competition and I had the very same thing happen in the other live well. All three dead after a run. The other two fish the other side absolutely fine.

I am catching most of my fish in the shallows but I honestly cannot work out what is going wrong.
I've now been told to wash my livewells with coarse salt and nothing else.

Here are some of the things that I thought may be killing from talking to other anglers, but I don't fully understand how that can be right as one side are always fine, the other all die.

The oxygenators reacting with something in the water quality.

The fact I am pumping in new water, and may go from the clean to the dirty and the difference in the water is killing them.

Some sort of electric surge going through the well when I am running from spot to spot ( I have cheaped when its idle and its fine )

I literally lost second place this weekend because of fish deaths and its frustrating as I don't know what to do.
Looking for any advice.

Thanks in advance!

[RUSS9999]

Is the drain on the livewell open and pulling the water out when you make a run?

[RossCo91]

No, don't lose any water when I run.

[Steve Fox]

You will have to do some investigation into your conditions.

 

Know that there are specific reasons that a fish would die within 30 minutes of being placed within your livewell: 

1) It could be a big temperature difference between the water that was filling the livewell and the water where the fish was caught.  Does the pump for livewell #2 heat up this water?  Go to a lake and start to fill up the livewell #2 to the typical depth and place your hand in the tank.  Is it much hotter or cooler than the water in livewell #1.

2) The PH level between your livewell and the fishes water could be extremely different and therefore cause the death of your fish.  I would get a PH testing kit, fill the livewell with water just as you do when you are on the water and then test the water within the livewell.  This is a simple test that will tell you if you have an imbalance caused by the water filtering in through your pump.

3) An unwanted chemical is being added to your second livewell that could be poisoning the fish.  Again take a sample of your water (do not taste it by mouth) and have the water examined by chemical breakdown.  If there are too many "other" compounds in the water then the pump is somehow adding these chemicals to the water and the fish are dying.

 

However, I would first find out the results of the water in livewell #2 before I do anything else.

[RMax]

http://www.seagrantfish.lsu.edu/resources/factsheets/catch_release.htm

 

I hope a lot of people read this.

[RossCo91]

 

On 5/2/2017 at 10:01 AM, Steve Fox said:

You will have to do some investigation into your conditions.

 

Know that there are specific reasons that a fish would die within 30 minutes of being placed within your livewell: 

1) It could be a big temperature difference between the water that was filling the livewell and the water where the fish was caught.  Does the pump for livewell #2 heat up this water?  Go to a lake and start to fill up the livewell #2 to the typical depth and place your hand in the tank.  Is it much hotter or cooler than the water in livewell #1.

2) The PH level between your livewell and the fishes water could be extremely different and therefore cause the death of your fish.  I would get a PH testing kit, fill the livewell with water just as you do when you are on the water and then test the water within the livewell.  This is a simple test that will tell you if you have an imbalance caused by the water filtering in through your pump.

3) An unwanted chemical is being added to your second livewell that could be poisoning the fish.  Again take a sample of your water (do not taste it by mouth) and have the water examined by chemical breakdown.  If there are too many "other" compounds in the water then the pump is somehow adding these chemicals to the water and the fish are dying.

 

However, I would first find out the results of the water in livewell #2 before I do anything else.

The problem happened in one livewell, and now is happening in the other but I do know that the water isn't heating up.

I'd love to do the chemical break down test but again in this country that wont happen unless I fork out ALOT of money.

I can however do the PH test, I never add anything into my wells.

I've been toying with the idea of putting a switch onto my oxygenators and turning them off to see if I have the problem occur still.

[Tim Kelly]

I'd be tempted to try oxygenators off and recirculate only. If that seems to be a bit better might even be tempted to put some vents in the livewell lid as those things are supposed to help. 

[WRB]

What is the water temperature in the livewell verses the body temperature of the bass you are putting into the wells? A simple digital water temperature gauge, put the probe in the basses throat to measure body temp. If the livewell temp is 10 degrees different than the basses body temp, they will die. Frozen 1 pint drinking water plastic bottles will lower the livewell temps, about 1 bottle an hour.

Sure-Life Catch & Release isn't a salt base additive. 3% hydrogen peroxide , over the counter, 1 cup or 8 oz to 15 gallons of water will keep bass DO levels right for a few hours.

Tom

[TexRob]

On 5/2/2017 at 6:06 PM, RMax said:

http://www.seagrantfish.lsu.edu/resources/factsheets/catch_release.htm

 

I hope a lot of people read this.

 

That last part is VERY frustrating.  I'd say the new generation of fisherman is much more wildlife conscious, myself included at 39.  I'm hoping things continue to improve, and tournaments move away from weighing, I love the way MLF does it.  I know their way is only practical for very small tournaments, but just off the top of my head I can think of ways to apply this method to larger tournaments.

 

40% mortality for fish that were caught by electrofishing, no trauma, means fish that are caught and weighed is a number less than that, extrapolating, much worse.

 

I apologize that my first post was somewhat off topic, OP I hope you figure out your problem soon, it's definitely an odd one.  Is it possible they are going from such poorly oxygenated water you're shocking them?

[RMax]

7 hours ago, TexRob said:

 

That last part is VERY frustrating.  I'd say the new generation of fisherman is much more wildlife conscious, myself included at 39.  I'm hoping things continue to improve, and tournaments move away from weighing, I love the way MLF does it.  I know their way is only practical for very small tournaments, but just off the top of my head I can think of ways to apply this method to larger tournaments.

 

40% mortality for fish that were caught by electrofishing, no trauma, means fish that are caught and weighed is a number less than that, extrapolating, much worse.

 

I apologize that my first post was somewhat off topic, OP I hope you figure out your problem soon, it's definitely an odd one.  Is it possible they are going from such poorly oxygenated water you're shocking them?

Wow, I didn't even notice that the first time I read it.  Those fish don't even go through the stress of being reeled in and have a 40% mortality rate?  Super sad, kinda revokes my respect for tournament anglers although I am sure a lot of them remain unaware of this.

[Team9nine]

8 hours ago, TexRob said:

40% mortality for fish that were caught by electrofishing, no trauma, means fish that are caught and weighed is a number less than that, extrapolating, much worse.

 

 

1 hour ago, RMax said:

Wow, I didn't even notice that the first time I read it.  Those fish don't even go through the stress of being reeled in and have a 40% mortality rate?  Super sad, kinda revokes my respect for tournament anglers although I am sure a lot of them remain unaware of this.

 

Woah... where are you guys reading this at? Electrofishing only caused 3.7% mortality. The 39.1 percent were tourney caught and held fish.

 

But read this study synopsis with a grain of salt. They are actually discussing two separate studies. One conducted in August in East Texas (can you think of a possible worst case scenario for seeing water temperature based mortality?), and the other was an October study using larger bass that are normally not allowed to be kept. It was carried out to help determine whether exemptions should be given to bass tourneys to get around the slot limit (they weren't approved). The studies were done 18 years ago, they didn't specify if any type of livewell management/treatment protocols were used or enforced, and even the study authors concluded the following (which they left out of the summary);

 

Quote

"These mortality rates are at the high end of the range experienced in previous studies. It is likely that the combination of larger fish and water temperatures increased the susceptibility of bass to tournament induced mortality"

 

The above quote is interesting because it directly contradicts the results of the first study summarized in regards to length vs. mortality. The overwhelming majority of studies since then have shown that there tends to be a positive correlation between fish size and mortality in most cases.

 

Additionally, the argument could be made that livewell care has increased quite a bit since then. B.A.S.S., Gene Gilliland and Hal Schramm didn't publish their defining booklet on the subject, "Keeping Bass Alive" until 2002. An updated version was again published in 2009.

 

-T9

[WRB]

Off topic but related if water temps and low DO levels are the discussion. The event that caused a big stir was the lake Falcon event where Paul Elias set the all time weight record.

The mortality was high due to high water temperatures over 85 degrees in the holding tanks and contestants livewells over stressing the bass and poor aeration to maintain DO levels. The day after the event hundreds of big bass were found floating belly up. The problem is 85 degree water can't sustain DO levels above 3 ml/G without the aid of a aeration pump. Bass need a minimum of 3ml/G prefer 8-12 ml/G and water temps in the 70's.

The bass tournament post mortality rates are about 3% for events held during summer months in warm water fisheries.

Tom

[RMax]

40 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

 

 

Woah... where are you guys reading this at? Electrofishing only caused 3.7% mortality. The 39.1 percent were tourney caught and held fish.

 

But read this study synopsis with a grain of salt. They are actually discussing two separate studies. One conducted in August in East Texas (can you think of a possible worst case scenario for seeing water temperature based mortality?), and the other was an October study using larger bass that are normally not allowed to be kept. It was carried out to help determine whether exemptions should be given to bass tourneys to get around the slot limit (they weren't approved). The studies were done 18 years ago, they didn't specify if any type of livewell management/treatment protocols were used or enforced, and even the study authors concluded the following (which they left out of the summary);

 

 

The above quote is interesting because it directly contradicts the results of the first study summarized in regards to length vs. mortality. The overwhelming majority of studies since then have shown that there tends to be a positive correlation between fish size and mortality in most cases.

 

Additionally, the argument could be made that livewell care has increased quite a bit since then. B.A.S.S., Gene Gilliland and Hal Schramm didn't publish their defining booklet on the subject, "Keeping Bass Alive" until 2002. An updated version was again published in 2009.

 

-T9

I was interpreting it that they were electrofishing and placing fish in their livewell.  Then, to simulate a tournament, weighing them.  However, you make some very good points.  I think that I am still going to avoid participating in tournaments, except on rare occasion with friends and continue to practice quick release instead.  Even though livewell care has increased, for all I know, the mortality rate could be 20%, which I don't think is very sustainable, especially since people keep the "bigguns."

[TexRob]

4 hours ago, RMax said:

Wow, I didn't even notice that the first time I read it.  Those fish don't even go through the stress of being reeled in and have a 40% mortality rate?  Super sad, kinda revokes my respect for tournament anglers although I am sure a lot of them remain unaware of this.

 

I re-read it a few times, it's really poorly edited if that last part didn't intend to infer the stats were in regards to electrofishing.  Either way, disappointing numbers.

[WRB]

The OP says he has a Oxygenator and states he has spray bars. Being from South Africa the Oxygenator may mean areation system not the brand Oxygenator which is a specific device.

The OP mentioned electrical current? any electric current in the livewell water should short the pump system , or he may be thinking salt water electrolysis being generated by dissimilar chemical mix? I think his problem is too high of water temps vs low DO levels.

Tom

 

[RossCo91]

2 hours ago, WRB said:

The OP says he has a Oxygenator and states he has spray bars. Being from South Africa the Oxygenator may mean areation system not the brand Oxygenator which is a specific device.

The OP mentioned electrical current? any electric current in the livewell water should short the pump system , or he may be thinking salt water electrolysis being generated by dissimilar chemical mix? I think his problem is too high of water temps vs low DO levels.

Tom

 

My whole rig including the oxygenators and pumps are from the states:)

[WRB]

10 hours ago, RossCo91 said:

My whole rig including the oxygenators and pumps are from the states:)

So what were the livewell water temps when the bass rolled over?

Tom

[Glenn]

Turn the oxygenators off (have heard a number of similar issues where they're the common thread), and do this instead:

 

 

 

And then follow these guidelines.  Problem solved.

 

 

[RossCo91]

Thank you for all the suggestions.

I am considering adding VT-2 vents to the live well, 

I'm going to try a few things and in a few weeks Ill post what helps for future viewers.

[sully420]

Could co2 be getting into your live wells some how. I have a pretty basic live well no oxygenatior only vent and recirculator and never have a problem. But never really have extreme water temperature either.