Kayak Bass Fishing National Championship

[flyfisher]

As many of you are aware and may have even competed in the Kayak national championship was this past weekend.  Prior to the tournament there was as always, the normal Facebook banter about various rigs and setups etc.   I brought up a concern that I wouldn't compete in an event where motorized craft (torqueedo is a huge sponsor of the event) and pedal drives were in the same class as paddle craft.  Of course hilarity ensued with people saying it doesn't matter, it is the angler etc...I also had a few of the people in charge or high up on the tournament food chain rip me, which is fine.  I made it known that the lack of divisions was also primary reason i wouldn't compete and the way the administration handled criticism was also a concern to me as a potential competitor.  I am pretty sure a pedal drive angler won this year as well...

 

Post tournament there was also about a 2 day delay in posting al the results.  I also said that i thought that was extreme and should be corrected, especially given the $250 entry fee.  I was met by the normal KBF mafioso and i left it at that.

 

There has been a lot of additional drama as well that i left out but it isn't hard to find if you are interested....

 

So i guess my questions are to the group are:

 

What are your thoughts on pedal/motor/paddle being the same division?

How quickly would you think that all the results should be posted after the tourney finishes?

 

[clayton86]

I was there finished horribly lol. Yeah the pedal drive guys have an advantage especially in that wind we experienced. Jed took second however and he's a paddler. 

 

I seen hundreds of kayakers while I was out on the lake and only saw two torqueedos the entire time and even in the parking lot only seen and know of 4 that were there. 

 

While I think there should maybe be divisions especially with how it's growing I don't think it will happen soon. At the same time I don't mind either pre fishing I was catching fish around the hobie crowd and fighting the wind with them just a bit more. I think my navionics said I paddled 17.3 miles on cypress bay on Wednesday in the 30mph winds we had. 

 

Now for the delay in standings yeah that was a bit crazy and I understand it to a extent but I think it was a bit much. They wanted to be absolutely sure of everything which is good but I think some things were still missed actually know they were. My 18.5/.25 held at 18.5 for the hbbb and king of the hill but was deducted to 18.25 for the NC. When zoomed in it does appear to not cross the line which is actually behind the raised line molded into the hawg trough. It just touches it though. I was in 296 and didn't limit either day so that .25 is nothing. 

 

Ive probably seen you posting on the KBF page and didn't know it was you.

[flyfisher]

I wonder if the time would have been spent if that recent drama hadn't happened though about the scoring from last year and that scoring from last year i believe impacted the winner and some money spots.  If you tout having the biggest tourney you need to have the infrastructure to back it all up.  

 

 

[Tracker22]

I don't compete but I do have a motor and I can tell you on large lakes the pedal drives have a great advantage. They can travel greater distances faster. That being said, if you put a poor fisherman in a pedal drive, it's no advantage at all. As far as competition goes, there should be different classes.

 

[HeavyTwenty]

On 4/4/2017 at 7:33 PM, flyfisher said:

 

What are your thoughts on pedal/motor/paddle being the same division?

 

Personally I think pedal yaks are the next step evolution of paddle kayaks (for fishing), so I don't mind them being included. But a yak with a motor doesn't belong. 

[Onvacation]

On the second day, Ron Champion, a very accomplished kayak angler, and I were fishing in the same area. He put in and motored off at about 6 mph.  We chatted several times during the day so obviously although he moved around a lot more, we both had roughly the same idea. At the end of the day, if it had just been the two of us, I think I ended up having the better day.  So while he had the advantage of hands free, plus the motor, it all came down to who was getting bit at a particular time and place. With that said, on day one, pedal and motor had a distinct advantage over paddle. It wasn't even close. I probably had half the casts that those guys did because it was a constant battle to reposition, or fish for dinks in a cove like I did. My paddling was a massive disadvantage. 

 

As for the results, I think they were caught completely off guard at the sheer numbers. I personally had next to no cell service so I ended up being one of those submitting manually. That didn't help either.  I stuck around until about 2am waiting to see who won, but then went back to the hotel to sleep. I knew it wasn't me anyway. 

[clayton86]

12 hours ago, Onvacation said:

On the second day, Ron Champion, a very accomplished kayak angler, and I were fishing in the same area. He put in and motored off at about 6 mph.  We chatted several times during the day so obviously although he moved around a lot more, we both had roughly the same idea. At the end of the day, if it had just been the two of us, I think I ended up having the better day.  So while he had the advantage of hands free, plus the motor, it all came down to who was getting bit at a particular time and place. With that said, on day one, pedal and motor had a distinct advantage over paddle. It wasn't even close. I probably had half the casts that those guys did because it was a constant battle to reposition, or fish for dinks in a cove like I did. My paddling was a massive disadvantage. 

 

As for the results, I think they were caught completely off guard at the sheer numbers. I personally had next to no cell service so I ended up being one of those submitting manually. That didn't help either.  I stuck around until about 2am waiting to see who won, but then went back to the hotel to sleep. I knew it wasn't me anyway. 

 

 

I fished cypress day one and was battling wind constantly. I was getting bit on a small C rig and 3" senko just dragging it over points lots of dinks and one solid fish and lost another but the wind made finesse fishing near impossible. My buddy had a slayer and was having no issues other then back lashes and technical difficulties with FF battery dying and what not but boat position no problem. 

 

Even me in an ATAK which is a wind shedding machine I had a hard time staying in position even when anchored out on a ledge I got blown off just not as fast. Next year I will be in a radar with pedals. 

[Choporoz]

On 4/5/2017 at 9:10 PM, clayton86 said:

 

I seen hundreds of kayakers while I was out on the lake and only saw two torqueedos the entire time and even in the parking lot only seen and know of 4 that were there. 

 

I apologize up front for the dead thread resurrection.  But I thought it interesting how fast things change. I fished my first two tournaments this month, with two different regions.  The quick rise in number of yaks with motors is rather stunning.  I didn't do a survey or count, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a third of people in each event...maybe higher.   

One unexpected outcome is that I learned about the Torqueedo Evolve that fits in Hbie Mirage Drive hole... and for the first time, I'm considering a motor...lol

[flyfisher]

I hav no problem with motors, hell i would like one on my ATAK for one particular lake I fish and to do solo river shuttle runs.  Problem is no matter how many there are, they are at a distinct advantage over paddles.  There is no way a person with a paddle can compete o na larger lake with someone with a motor or pedals.  Sure there will be people who win tournaments against those guys but that is the exception not the norm.  

[Brad Reid]

It is a great topic, deserves much more attention.

 

I don't fish tournaments and I own all three propulsion types: paddle, pedal, and power. I mention this because it informs my opinion on advantages, one over the other from actual experience. How could someone know if they haven't fished out of all three? This, and I watch the results and paddling vs. pedaling is closer than most think. Everybody assumes the Hobie PA 14 with 20 rods wins the tournaments. Hmm? Not so much at least not here in Texas.

 

But, in my opinion, power should NEVER be allowed unless contested in a separate class. I've seen the same slippery slope hurt so many other sports where "gear" advancements favor one competitor over another. 

 

We all understand that the tiny motors pro bike racers have been secretly using aren't fair. At least they hide them to the extent they can, or their handlers do while they are getting their blood infusions and steroid shots. Ha!

 

What about, someone might ask, the modern fish finders where you can almost see the color of the eyes of bass, Brad? Hmm, I struggle with this and no doubt it is another area where different equipment might diminish fair competition.

 

We are close to the point where a state of the art kayak will command the price of a well-known aluminum bass boat. We might have passed it already, not certain.

 

Finally, I watched third place finisher at the Nationals, Greg Blanchard's 3 part series. Excellent videos. Greg uses power to get to a beginning fishing destination, move from one place to another only if it is far apart, and I suppose to get back home the end. My general impression? Power didn't help Greg do much other than save some calories.

 

One last point. If "power" begins to dominate the results, tourny directors could even it up a bit by building in a time penalty. Kayaks competing under power would have a, say, one hour earlier check-in, or one hour later beginning.

 

I'd love to analyze the data from multiple events to see if we even have a statistically significant issue here.

 

Brad

 

 

[Choporoz]

Great post, @Brad Reid.  As usual,  data would improve the quality of the conversation, if not the entertainment value.   I'm not yet convinced that power is a huge advantage over pedal.. yet.  I do suspect that both are a general advantage over paddle.  I expect power to become more of a factor before long, however.   No reason to think speed and battery life aren't going to advance quickly... heck, I saw someone on Facebook working on putting a jetski engine in a kayak...lol.  I bet we see 15mph Torqueedo yaks in next year, if they're not there already. 

[Fishingmickey]

I've tournament kayak fished for the last five years. I fish the KATS series in Texas. There is no doubt that a pedal drive does allow you to fish more water in the wind by far compared to a paddle driven craft. That said two of the guys that have literally "ruled" for a couple of years use paddle driven craft.  Both of them are top notch sticks and one of them finished fourth at KBFNC and used a paddle. So I feel that the quality of the angler is more important then the type of drive they are using. I do feel that using trolling motors is a too much of a advantage and it will become more of a arms race to develop the fastest craft. Next thing you know we will be talking about Kayak hole shots!

FM

[flyfisher]

Quality of the angler is always important but at the same time propulsion that isn’t a paddle is faster, more efficient snd saves energy. At the end of the day that matters. 

[Choporoz]

2 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

Quality of the angler is always important but at the same time propulsion that isn’t a paddle is faster, more efficient snd saves energy. At the end of the day that matters. 

Another good point.  

I have never fished multi-day tourny, but I'd think that might be where you'd really see more difference.  I'm still pretty wiped the morning after peddling for 8 hours....hips, quads, glutes, back...aging sux.  But, I'd imagine a whole different (better) body the morning after exercising a keypad to transit and maneuver all day.

[Fishingmickey]

19 minutes ago, flyfisher said:

Quality of the angler is always important but at the same time propulsion that isn’t a paddle is faster, more efficient snd saves energy. At the end of the day that matters. 

I gotta call ya on this one. One of our guys that fishes KATS will flat leave behind the peddle drive's in his wake. He paddles 16' racing kayak. He can do 6-8 mph in his Ferrari. He gets to his spot first.

FM

[flyfisher]

3 hours ago, Fishingmickey said:

I gotta call ya on this one. One of our guys that fishes KATS will flat leave behind the peddle drive's in his wake. He paddles 16' racing kayak. He can do 6-8 mph in his Ferrari. He gets to his spot first.

FM

The exception doesn't make the rule  Since the advent of fishing specific kayaks i have never seen a person who fishes out of a racing kayak.  That being said, he must be pretty slow because a racing kayak should go way faster than that.  I can paddle my ATAK 140 which is a barge comparatively speaking, and maintain 4mph pretty easily.  

 

[clayton86]

Our series doesn’t allow motors unless you have a disability and doctors note. Next year we may change it but who knows I know I’ve brought it up several times to the other TDs. Pedals are huge in my series everyone has some pedal drive kayak. Me I stick to either my ATAK 140 or 120 I’m at a disadvantage either way this season though after my accident in November. I don’t have the strength or stamina to paddle for long or stand I’m still to shaky and unstable trying to sit or stand and the waters only 45* this past Saturday which if I fall in trying to stand again I’d rather it be warmer water.

[Harold Scoggins]

10 hours ago, Fishingmickey said:

I gotta call ya on this one. One of our guys that fishes KATS will flat leave behind the peddle drive's in his wake. He paddles 16' racing kayak. He can do 6-8 mph in his Ferrari. He gets to his spot first.

I saw one of these clock 11 mph, using paddle!

[hoosierbass07]

On 4/4/2017 at 7:33 PM, flyfisher said:

 

What are your thoughts on pedal/motor/paddle being the same division?

 

 

 

 

  I think I posted something about this topic a few years ago.  I'm on your side - keep them separated!  It is totally unfair for the paddlers to compete against the kayaks with motors and even the peddle driven kayaks.  

[Choporoz]

3 divisions may not be practical for most local/regional events.   I am conflicted. 

[MN Fisher]

The Month Long KBF State Challenge(s) for MN looks interesting.

 

It's nice that they allow canoes and electric motors - the other Kayak group that's operating a tourney in MN restricts it to Kayaks ONLY and manual propulsion.

 

Unfortunately, the fee to join the group to be eligible combined with the fee for the challenge itself puts it out of my reach for this year...maybe next year.

[flyfisher]

I do think the pendulum is swinging far to the side of propulsion either pedal or power and it will settle somewhere.  It is also not a coincidence that motors that were once frowned upon for anything other than disabled is now the norm, oh wait i forgot, Torqueedo is a major sponsor now too.  

And to be clear, i have zero problems with motors or pedals but it is without question an advantage over pedaling.  Just ask any Hobie owner who makes the best kayak on the market....

[928JLH]

Definitely feel motorized should have their own division.

 

Personally I haven't seen a huge advantage or performance difference in pedal vs paddle though. That comes down to the angler IMO. 

 

Tourney results should be posted in several hours tops.

[hoosierbass07]

 I have zero problems with motor/peddle too.  I would love to get a motor driven kayak.  But when it comes to tournaments, keep the motor driven kayaks in their own division.  I guess I'm sort of OK if you have to stick pedal with paddle kayaks.  

[Cdn Angler]

On 4/4/2017 at 7:33 PM, flyfisher said:

As many of you are aware and may have even competed in the Kayak national championship was this past weekend.  Prior to the tournament there was as always, the normal Facebook banter about various rigs and setups etc.   I brought up a concern that I wouldn't compete in an event where motorized craft (torqueedo is a huge sponsor of the event) and pedal drives were in the same class as paddle craft.  Of course hilarity ensued with people saying it doesn't matter, it is the angler etc...I also had a few of the people in charge or high up on the tournament food chain rip me, which is fine.  I made it known that the lack of divisions was also primary reason i wouldn't compete and the way the administration handled criticism was also a concern to me as a potential competitor.  I am pretty sure a pedal drive angler won this year as well...

 

Post tournament there was also about a 2 day delay in posting al the results.  I also said that i thought that was extreme and should be corrected, especially given the $250 entry fee.  I was met by the normal KBF mafioso and i left it at that.

 

There has been a lot of additional drama as well that i left out but it isn't hard to find if you are interested....

 

So i guess my questions are to the group are:

 

What are your thoughts on pedal/motor/paddle being the same division?

How quickly would you think that all the results should be posted after the tourney finishes?

 

 

Yeah I went in a tournament last year for the first time on a paddle driven kayak.  There were a few guys there with boats that must cost $10,000, had screens the size of my television, some kind of kayak sized power poles, pedal driven, 10 rods etc.  I was happy to compete in the tournament, but realistically there isn't much hope of consistently competing against that with a paddle driven boat and no electronics. At least not consistently. I covered 10-15 kms in 7 hours paddling about as hard as I could, but there are other guys coasting with no effort to go the same speed.

 

I'll probably do another tournament this year for fun, but it seems like a a silly way to kiss my entry fee goodbye. It isn't like I need to be in a tournament to fish or anything. Anyways I still managed to come in like 18th of 60 and had 3 fish come off that would have had me in the top 5-10. 

 

Nobody broke any rules so I can't complain, but if the purpose of kayak fishing is to have a cheaper alternative to motorized boats, at least in my brain. What it has turned into doesn't fit that goal. 

 

This is what happens with anything when you turn it into a competition. It becomes all about winning and $$$.