Stupid fish?

[Catch 22]

2 hours ago, MIbassyaker said:

 

Well, avoidance learning is not necessarily all or none -- it's about a reduction in response strength or response frequency, not a disappearance altogether.

 

As it happens, my May issue of In-Fisherman reports (P. 8) on a recent study (Hessenauer, Vokoum, Davis, Jacobs & O'Donnell, 2016) that found declining catch rates with cumulative catch events, for bass initially taken from fished and unfished populations, and raised in a pond for two years. The data pretty clearly show evidence of learned lure avoidance.  The lures were a rapala minnow, a mepps spinner and curlytail grub on a jig. And it wasn't in a tank.

I used to have a 2 acre pond with a variety of fish.First time around the pond with a new to them lure,they were very catchable. Second time around not many and the third time round====forget about it.They also became line shy. I saw that time and time over.

 

[NorthwestBasser]

Well... this was just a funny thought that popped in my head. But thanks for the replies, I've learned a few things and it's been an interesting conversation! 

[soflabasser]

A person does not have to be a experienced Fisheries Biologist or have +20 years experience in bass fishing to know that bass are capable of learning to avoid certain lures,especially in highly pressured water.Almost anyone can catch a big bass in a well managed private pond,yet most would have difficulty in a highly pressured public pond that also has big bass.

[WRB]

13 minutes ago, soflabasser said:

A person does not have to be a experienced Fisheries Biologist or have +20 years experience in bass fishing to know that bass are capable of learning to avoid certain lures,especially in highly pressured water.Almost anyone can catch a big bass in a well managed private pond,yet most would have difficulty in a highly pressured public pond that also has big bass.

The bass instictively avoid danger from movement near them. Try fishing clear water small trophy bass lakes we have in SoCal that have 100's of skilled bass anglers and boats every weekend year around trying to catch bass. This is the environment I catch big bass consistantly using the same lures for decades catching Florida strain bass. I avoid making noises, keeping as far away from these big fish as possible and using lures that represent the prey these fish are looking for. It's not the lures bass learn to associate with danger it's the anglers and noise they avoid. Fish at night or during the rain at those ponds, the bass lose their lure "memory"  really fast because they can't detect the anglers as easily.

Tom

[MIbassyaker]

5 hours ago, WRB said:

Tried to look up the study report, no longer get IF. The referenced authors are well published and in the business of making study reports. The only reference found was a study to determine the catch rate between bass from a virgin fishery verses and public fishery place together in a pond. No lure details were given and the conclusion was a slight difference may exist between the 2 populations of LMB in lure avoidance. How many bass were involved or how many days weeks or years was the study performed or prey sources the bass accustom to eating prior to being moved to a new environmemt or what prey was availble in the pond wasn't noted in the brief report I read. I have also read reports by the same authors that suggest fish can learn to avoid lures by observing other fish being caught....suggesting a higher form of intellect.

If you have a link I will read it.

Tom

 

It's not open access, unfortunately, but here's the abstract and full citation:

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00028487.2016.1194894?journalCode=utaf20

 

Hessenauer, J.M., J. Vokoun, J. Davis, R. Jacobs, and E. O’Donnell. 2016. Loss of Naivety to Angling at Different Rates in Fished and Unfished Populations of Largemouth Bass. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 145: 1068-1076.

 

A few things about this: First, the two populations of bass did not merely differ in lure avoidance, they differed in the rates at which lure avoidance was learned. That is, both populations clearly showed reduced catch rates with increased catch events, but the bass from fished populations learned faster. Second, I only mention the paper because it was the first one I thought of, having run across it browsing the new IF issue yesterday. But it's not the first or only such study I have seen, and the article cites several other studies over the last few decades.

 

As for social learning, I don't see anything in their results that necessitate that explanation, although their data are consistent with it -- they estimate the changes in catch rates are faster than would be expected from direct experience with lures. But they're not making a strong argument for it specifically, just discussing the results in the context of prior literature which has, apparently, reported evidence of social learning in fish (they cite a few papers, including a review, Brown & Lalande, 2003, "Social learning in fishes: a review"). I don't have a sense of how well established that is but it's not out of the realm of plausibility -- many species have some ability to learn from observation, especially if they have good visual discrimination (which bass are known for). I would not take that as evidence of intellect, though.

[Gundog]

Good Moses, now we don't just have to worry about the machines rising up to exterminate us but the bass are gonna help them do it. 

[Deleted account]

12 hours ago, MIbassyaker said:

Seems to me that either bass learn to avoid lures, or there is no such thing as fishing pressure. I don't see how you can have one without the other.

 

When a body of water receives "fishing pressure" fish caught and released often won't bite for a period of time. This time varies, so you are in essence reducing the number of catchable fish for that period. With enough pressure, the catch ratio will be similar to a lake with little or no fish. Reduce the pressure, and see what happens. The experiment(s) can and have been done. I catch the same fish on subsequent days with the same lure from the same spot quite a bit. 

[jimf]

Everything a bass does outside of spawning is feeding related.   Based on studies I have seen, when the water temps are favorable bass are usually hungry.   What takes a week to digest in 45 degree water is done in less than a day in 75 degree water, and in a healthy environment there is a balance where there is enough prey to eat, but not so much that it's easy pickins.   So if a food like thing finds it's way near a bass, there is a pretty good chance they are going to think about eating it.   They have to, free cheese is free cheese, and they can't afford to let a free meal go by.

 

However, I do believe that a bass can "learn" that certain things aren't worth the effort.   Bass will eat little baby 2" crawfish, but those big grown suckers they avoid.   They avoid turtles regardless of size, presumably because of the claws that can do a number on you and the shell.  Toads and frogs, I know we like to use them as bait but bass just don't seem to want to eat them in the wild.   The skin is toxic and tastes bad.   I used to work in an aquarium store in HS, and I can tell from direct experimentation that a Puffer fish will attack a Newt no more than a couple of times, and that's it forever.  You can try again months later and at most they will go peck it once, but they won't eat it.   I know it's not a natural habitat and all, but it showed me that fish learn.   

 

Having said all of this, I think the number one reason fish refuse our lures is not because they aren't hungry, and not because they have "learned" something about it, but because we didn't present it correctly.   Not the right angle, too noisy, ... a million different ways we can screw that up.  

 

So I think I'm saying is - yes, fish will "learn" about lures and be more susceptible to them.   If you present a lure properly to a bass that isn't digesting food, you have a better chance of getting bit if that fish hasn't had a negative experience with that lure.  I'm not saying it's impossible to catch the fish again, just that it's more likely to get bit if they haven't seen it.   

 

And finally, if I am not getting bit, the first thing I think about is what am *I* doing wrong, not "fish aren't hungry" or "they have seen this" etc...  

 

Just my opinion.

 

[Bassun]

Another way to think about it, is instincts - not "thinking".  I personally do not believe bass possess higher level thought processes to "think" through a problem or situation.  Instinctively, however, good and bad can be learned.  That has been proven numerous times with numerous different creatures - I can cite studies but I think we all agree with that.  Can they learn that a specific lure type is associated with a "bad" experience... sure, why would a lure be different than any other negative reinforcement?

 

Now, as for many pros and others saying fish are stupid, and that you should keep it simple... is that really wrong?  No, I don't think it is.  And I don't think it is for a couple of reasons:  A: You SHOULD keep it simple, Occam's Razor shows the simplest solution is usually the best solution.  Catching fish is the problem, location, basic lure selection and presentation is the solution.  If we "try" to theorize 100 different variables, invariably we will over analyze instead of just catching fish.  I'm not saying to never adapt, one should always adapt based on the information given -- but start simple.  Basic location based on weather/time of year, basic colors, basic lure types.  Then refine.  

 

Another reason I don't think it's a bad philosophy to apply is B:  Confidence.  Plain and simple.  If you genuinely believe fish are simple, then you will have greater confidence.  Confidence, unlike arrogance, will certainly help you catch more fish.  That's part of why so many pro's preach a confidence bait.  But that mentality can extend further than one bait, and into confidence in catching fish overall.  And, systematically, if you are more confident that you CAN and WILL catch fish - you will naturally make more simple choices.  You will not be questioning every nuance of every lure you own - rather you will make a simple selection automatically because you have confidence that it will work.  That selection process inherently becomes the K.I.S.S. principle in action, with no stepping back to make that realization.  Naturally from there, you will begin to refine your presentation through adaptation.

 

On the converse, instincts are hard to beat.  And that goes both ways.  All of us have probably been "in the zone".  Where everything is just happening, you are not thinking about it - you are just doing it... instinctively -- and that is probably when you are the most effective angler - maybe by luck, maybe by nature, who knows.  Fish live by instincts, we do too at the most basic level of our existence --- but we supplement it with a higher knowledge.  Instincts are hard to beat...

[soflabasser]

22 hours ago, WRB said:

The bass instictively avoid danger from movement near them. Try fishing clear water small trophy bass lakes we have in SoCal that have 100's of skilled bass anglers and boats every weekend year around trying to catch bass. This is the environment I catch big bass consistantly using the same lures for decades catching Florida strain bass. I avoid making noises, keeping as far away from these big fish as possible and using lures that represent the prey these fish are looking for. It's not the lures bass learn to associate with danger it's the anglers and noise they avoid. Fish at night or during the rain at those ponds, the bass lose their lure "memory"  really fast because they can't detect the anglers as easily.

Tom

 

You are a experienced bass fisherman so you should know what to do to catch the big bass in the highly pressured waters you fish,but not everyone has your experience.I am sure there are many anglers that fish the same waters you do and haven't caught a single double digit bass,even with a decade's worth of experience.Many of the places I fish have extremely clear water and I do quite well catching big bass from these places so clear water bass fishing is something I am very familiar with.I have put in the time needed to know what the big bass in those places bite,when they bite, depth,and specific location in the body of water,etc.With that said,I am still learning on every single fishing trip I make,and I will never underestimate how smart a double digit bass can be in a highly pressured public body of water.
 

20 hours ago, MIbassyaker said:

 

It's not open access, unfortunately, but here's the abstract and full citation:

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00028487.2016.1194894?journalCode=utaf20

 

Hessenauer, J.M., J. Vokoun, J. Davis, R. Jacobs, and E. O’Donnell. 2016. Loss of Naivety to Angling at Different Rates in Fished and Unfished Populations of Largemouth Bass. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 145: 1068-1076.

 

A few things about this: First, the two populations of bass did not merely differ in lure avoidance, they differed in the rates at which lure avoidance was learned. That is, both populations clearly showed reduced catch rates with increased catch events, but the bass from fished populations learned faster. Second, I only mention the paper because it was the first one I thought of, having run across it browsing the new IF issue yesterday. But it's not the first or only such study I have seen, and the article cites several other studies over the last few decades.

 

As for social learning, I don't see anything in their results that necessitate that explanation, although their data are consistent with it -- they estimate the changes in catch rates are faster than would be expected from direct experience with lures. But they're not making a strong argument for it specifically, just discussing the results in the context of prior literature which has, apparently, reported evidence of social learning in fish (they cite a few papers, including a review, Brown & Lalande, 2003, "Social learning in fishes: a review"). I don't have a sense of how well established that is but it's not out of the realm of plausibility -- many species have some ability to learn from observation, especially if they have good visual discrimination (which bass are known for). I would not take that as evidence of intellect, though.

 

Thank you for posting this.

[Airman4754]

21 hours ago, WRB said:

The bass instictively avoid danger from movement near them. Try fishing clear water small trophy bass lakes we have in SoCal that have 100's of skilled bass anglers and boats every weekend year around trying to catch bass. This is the environment I catch big bass consistantly using the same lures for decades catching Florida strain bass. I avoid making noises, keeping as far away from these big fish as possible and using lures that represent the prey these fish are looking for. It's not the lures bass learn to associate with danger it's the anglers and noise they avoid. Fish at night or during the rain at those ponds, the bass lose their lure "memory"  really fast because they can't detect the anglers as easily.

Tom

 

This is a great post.