Question: Surface water temp for determining seasonal pattern

[A-Jay]

3 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Yes

 

The first day of "spring" 2017 was March 20th, it is the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!

 

Pre-spawn (spring for the bass) started in early January.

 

Water temperatures started warming in early January but only surface & a few inches under the surface because what was gained in daylight was lost after sunset.

 

Confused yet?

 

Confused ?  Perhaps.

I'm going to call it learning.

A-Jay

[WRB]

15 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Yes

 

The first day of "spring" 2017 was March 20th, it is the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!

 

Pre-spawn (spring for the bass) started in early January.

 

Water temperatures started warming in early January but only surface & a few inches under the surface because what was gained in daylight was lost after sunset.

 

Confused yet?

No!

Water is thermally conductive so the surface warms and cools faster then the core water below it. Add water density the colder it is the heavier it gets and sinks below the warmer water....until it gets 34.9 degrees, then it get lighter density and start to float on top of 35 or warmer water, continues to get colder near the surface and freezes in very cold climates.

Surfacectemps only tell you what the surface water is, 3' down the water can be very different temp, deeper it's more temp change. Bass seek a temperature zone that they prefer, warmer in cold water and cooler in hot water if they can.

Deep subject for those who want to know about bass behavior. Sonar has lessened the need to know why bass locate deeper, anglers can find the bass and target them at the depth they are using.

Seasonal periods help to get you started at the highest percentage locations, bass don't always cooperate and do things their way.

Tom

[Catt]

@WRB

 

Water warms from the top down would you not agree?

 

Until daylight (warming period) becomes longer than nights (cooling period) the water temperature will not warm but a degree or 2. Depending on nighttime lows daytime gains will be lost. Add in winds which again cools the surface.

 

 

 

[12poundbass]

I remember somebody a while back started a thread about conflicting info in the fishing world...?

 

I'm reading all posts and learning.

[WRB]

12 minutes ago, Catt said:

@WRB

 

Water warms from the top down would you not agree?

 

Until daylight (warming period) becomes longer than nights (cooling period) the water temperature will not warm but a degree or 2. Depending on nighttime lows daytime gains will be lost. Add in winds which again cools the surface.

 

 

 

Yep, add the depth of the water and the mass cools very slowly, wind mixes the water slowing the warming time more. Calm shallow water warms faster then deep windy areas.

Tom

[fissure_man]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

 

 

The first day of "spring" 2017 was March 20th, it is the day that the "photoperiod" started getting longer!

 

 

Nope – day length starts increasing right after the winter solstice in December.

Timing of ‘ice out’ (where applicable) and the warming of the water in spring is obviously correlated to day length, but it varies from year to year based on weather.

Victoria BC and Kenora ON have approximately the same latitude – no difference in day length.  I imagine Kenora is still iced in, but lakes around Victoria rarely ever freeze (mildest winters in all of Canada).  Based on identical “photoperiods,” would you expect the timing of seasonal patterns in these locations to be identical?

[WRB]

Where I am located in SoCal high altitude lakes like Big Bear lake has 3' of snow, ice free on the main and still has some ice in protected bays/coves....I see the mountains from my home where most of the lower elevation lakes nearby are in the spawn cycle. The difference isn't length of day or night or photoperiod, it's alititude 700 feet vs 7,000 feet. 

I agree the photoperiod, longer warmer days coupled with shorter warmer night and mild weather warms the water and coincides with the basses annual regional spawning cycle.

Debating the exceptions has little to do with bass fishing in general.

I also agree with Catt that the summer period is both the most productive in catching numbers of bass and the most difficult to locate big bass. I catch more big bass during pre spawn. If anglers would understand that big bass prefer mild mid 70 degree water over warmer mid 80 degree water they would catch more summer bass. Mid lake humps, long points have cooler water do to wind or dam current upwelling flowing up and over the structure and big bass make those areas home., lots of prey, comfortable and usually un disturbed areas.

Winter cold water 40-50 degrees

Pre Spawn, warming water 50-60 degrees

Spawn, calm warm water 60-70 degrees

Post spawn, warm water 70-75 degrees

summer, warmer water 75-85 degrees

Fall, cooling water 70-60 degrees

Ball park values at the depth the bass are in.

Tom

 

[fissure_man]

Good info @WRB.  I’ve no qualms with your points.  But if you’re referring to my example as an exception I’d disagree.  Bass start spawning at different times of year in different locations – the critical difference (IMO) is temperature, but could “photoperiod” really be the main driver as other posts suggest?  The example I gave (and also your example of Big Bear Lake) demonstrate that’s probably not the case – these are locations with the same “photoperiod” conditions, different temperatures, and predictably different spawn initiation timing. 

  

If day length (aka “photoperiod”) really is the driver, consider that the spring equinox is the time of year when day length is roughly the same all over the planet.  In some locations the spawn will begin before the spring equinox, in others it will be long after (again, temperature).

 

Another example from up here: large, deep lakes that are slow to warm (such as Lake Ontario) will have a later spawn than smaller, shallower lakes that warm up quickly in the spring.  Same day length, angle to the sun, air temp, altitude, etc. 

 

I fish a (very) large sandy bay on Lake Erie – max depth 10 ft.  This is prime smallmouth spawning habitat, and they’re in there thick in the spring (closed season).  By late summer they move back out into the cooler water of the main lake, and the timing of their departure depends on temperature.

 

My point of view is from the north, maybe this is different down south?  When springtime water temperatures are suitable for egg/fry survival for much longer window (vs. northern lakes), maybe other factors (photoperiod) become increasingly important. 

 

In any case, the OP is in Michigan; IMO the posts suggesting he should ignore temperature are bad advice. 

 

[Jim Bridger]

This is some really great feedback and I appreciate everyone's input.  My take away from the responses is the following:

 

- Photoperiod signals to the fish a type of behavior (seasonal pattern ie: pre-spawn, spawn, post-spawn)

- Temperature seems to be dictated by comfort levels of the fish...when they're willing to spawn for example and we all know this is more of a range of temperatures (not exactly a hard and fast rule of a one temperature across the board but a range of 3 degrees or so, and different temps because not all bass prefer to do the same behavior at the same temperature).

 

I was looking for a hard a fast rule to use, but it seems much more clear to me bass behavior is a little more difficult to understand from a single bit of data, and my best bet is to learn what it looks like when bass are in each seasonal pattern and to learn at what temperatures those patterns begin in certain regions/water bodies.

 

Something else someone mentioned that had not occurred to me before was how photoperiod effects the plant kingdom which in turn affects the animal kingdom...I think there is more to this than we realize, perhaps increased oxygen in the water from the growing plants plays a part in this, perhaps its the increased forage hiding in these newly sprouted plants...it could be some of this or none of it, but something I thought was interesting and worth pondering.

 

Again, thank you to everyone for throwing in your 2 cents, I thoroughly enjoyed reading all your posts!

 

Respectfully,

 

Jim

[Catt]

Most anglers look for a single "bullet", mother nature has a clip full of em!