The Pros and Cons between the Avid and Avid X

[dodgeguy]

1 hour ago, Tim Kelly said:

If you have $200 to build a rod for, would you rather it had more money spent on the blank or the guides? I bet it would be impossible to tell the difference between oxide linings and alconite ones in use and I expect they'd weigh a very similar amount.

I know I'm gonna get roasted for this but my Johnny Morris Patriot Rods are in my opinion better blanks and have sic guides at 199$.

[jimmyjoe]

21 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

The avid x micro guides are not even alconite. They are substandard garbage at this price.

     There are a LOT of things that go into the design of a rod other than just the guides.

     Kigan guides are not "garbage", and the fact that they're not Fuji doesn't mean that they're "sub-standard". I've fished Avid-X rods for three or four years, and the guides are excellent. I also have Fenwick rods with Alconite inserts in the guides. The Avid-X is a totally different design. You might like one for your fishing needs, or you might like the other. That doesn't make one garbage compared to the other.

     Another thing: you compare based on price. An American-made rod is not price-comparable to a Chinese-made rod based on price. Not the cork, not the guides, and especially not the blank. That doesn't make either one "garbage".

    

21 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

. I picked a Bps Johnny Morris Patriot with Fuji sic guides over it for this reason.

    Many people to whom I've spoken have told me that SIC guide inserts are easier to crack. In other words, they're more brittle. I've tended to avoid them for that reason.

    If you chose a BPS product over a St. Croix product BASED SOLELY ON GUIDES, then I'd ask you to explain to us why you believe that guides are the most important factor in a rod: more important than action, weight, flex profile, longevity, durability and speed.  There exists a  forum that has many VERY knowledgeable  people in the industry. Perhaps you could go there and discuss this matter with them. That forum is rodbuilding.org.

2 hours ago, dodgeguy said:

At the 200$ price point anything less is unacceptable IMHO. 

   The Fenwick Techna rods that are on the market now don't have Fuji guides, don't even have Kigan guides. They have Seaguide guides. They cost $200 and up. I haven't heard any complaints about them.

   

    A rod is more than just the guides.    jj

[Tim Kelly]

I expect they're Chinese blanks, where the St Croix are, or were, North American built, so there's going to be a difference in the price of the blank.

[dodgeguy]

The Patriot is supposed to be completely American made. I've never had a Fuji sic guides fail. 

[Tim Kelly]

Fair enough. They sound like good value rods.

[jimmyjoe]

7 minutes ago, dodgeguy said:

I've never had a Fuji sic guides fail. 

    Good for you. Just because you haven't, doesn't mean other people haven't. I never saw a Ford Pinto explode in a wreck, either, but I decided not to buy one.

 

    Bottom line is this: If what you say about the rod you have is correct, then as I said, GOOD FOR YOU!  I'm happy for you!. Congratulations! Obviously, you like that product!

    And I like the products I have. Other people like the products they have. Some people rate highly products that are quite inexpensive. Other people rate highly products that are far more expensive that the ones that we have been discussing.

    It's all up to the individual. There are things I don't like. And if I don't like them, I may express my opinion and say so. Once. Other people may disagree with me. They may express their opinion, too. It's happened. Quite a few times, in fact. Being an old fart, my memory is poor, but I don't remember using the word "garbage", and I don't remember someone else using the word "garbage". Maybe I'm wrong about that.

  

    Have you visited that rodbuilding site yet?        jj

   

[WI_Angler1989]

I have a couple of Avids that I bought before the X line came out and I love them! They've proven to be durable, versatile and sensitive to me and my limited experience.

That being said, if I was in the market now without any Avid.... I would get the X. The grips on the classic is a bit cumbersome (yes, I could stand them to my liking, but I haven't tried yet). I love the micro guides on my LTB even though I use braid to leader with it. So if I ran braid it wouldn't be any issue for me.

 

I do really like the feel, balance and look of split grips. The Avid x sort of disappears in my hand, where the Avid has sort of a bulbous grip compared to my LTB (which is very minimal). 

 

[jimmyjoe]

    Let me add one other thing, if I may. Back at the end of '18, I thought about having a custom rod made. There was something specific I wanted. I was helped a great deal by @Mick D and @spoonplugger1. Eventually, I had a rod made by Ron Schneider down in Arkansas. It was built on a Batson blank, an IP963F, I believe. I got it about 10 months ago, and I've been using it ever since, trying out different reels and different lines.

   I fish six days a week, weather permitting, and I love that rod. I absolutely love it. Fish don't get off of it. It's light, well-balanced, tough and responsive. It is by far and away the best rod I've ever handled for the price, which was less than $250. It casts really good distances (I'm a shorecaster) and it's easy to be accurate with it .... not something I associate with an eight foot rod.

 

    It has Kigan guides.       jj

[dodgeguy]

Didn't say Kigan guides were no good. I only said aluminum oxide IMHO wasn't what I would accept at that price range. 

[Scott F]

On 1/4/2020 at 11:50 AM, dodgeguy said:

The avid x micro guides are not even alconite. They are substandard garbage at this price. I picked a Bps Johnny Morris Patriot with Fuji sic guides over it for this reason.

 

54 minutes ago, dodgeguy said:

Didn't say Kigan guides were no good. I only said aluminum oxide IMHO wasn't what I would accept at that price range. 

You not only said they were no good, you called them “substandard garbage” 

[dodgeguy]

2 minutes ago, Scott F said:

 

You not only said they were no good, you called them “substandard garbage” 

Reread it. I did not say Kigan guides as a entire line were not good. I said at that price point aluminum oxide guides are substandard garbage. That would be true even with Fuji guides which I love. Aluminum oxide is bottom line no matter who makes them.Aluminum oxide belongs on rods under $100 unless you just like paying to much. Would it have killed them to step up to alconite? I think not. That would have been an awesome rod with alconites.

[jimmyjoe]

     Here's the hardness of various ring inserts, and comments about the usefulness of such. 

 

    https://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,184083

 

    Here's the forum entry that gave me the idea that SIC are brittle.

 

    https://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,134234

 

    And here is one discussing Kigan in particular.

 

    https://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,417727,417736

 

    The last entry in this post is EXTREMELY interesting.

 

    https://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,184066,184069

 

    Have a nice day.   jj

   

[dodgeguy]

2 hours ago, Scott F said:

 

You not only said they were no good, you called them “substandard garbage” 

Do you know how to read in context? I said Aluminum oxide guides are substandard garbage at that price. Nowhere in there did it say all Kigan guides are garbage. When you leave "at that price " off the sentence it is no longer in context and doesn't mean what I said. I later clarified that ANY MANUFACTURERS ALUMINUM OXIDE GUIDE WOULD BE SUBSTANDARD GARBAGE AT THAT PRICE INCLUDING FUJI. Do we get it now ? I don't care who makes the rod or the guide ALUMINUM OXIDE guides on a rod over $200  is inexcusable IMHO. I also didn't say they had to be sic. I said they should at least be alconite IMHO . ALCONITE would be fine in that range. If that rod had them I would have bought it.

[Tim Kelly]

I'm still amused that you think there is enough difference between the lowest and second lowest tier of rod guide liners. I understand that you think they should use the more expensive components on more expensive rods, but in practise I can't tell a difference between oxide or alconite steel framed guides. Not sure if I could tell SIC steel framed guides either. Now if you go to the insanely expensive titanium torzites  then there is a profound difference, but we re not talking about anything like that between oxides and alconites. 

[dodgeguy]

I've seen braid go through aluminum oxide. Never seen it go through alconite.

[Fishydishy]

On 3/9/2017 at 4:00 AM, smalljaw67 said:

I got a 7'ML Avid X and I did so after fishing the regular Avid side by side with the Avid X in the exact same rod. The Avid is a solid rod and I never felt blown away, it was a good rod at the $200 price point, but the Avid X really got me. I could not believe how much more responsive the rod felt with just a different guide train and split grip, the difference was so stark that I had to get in touch with St. Croix to find out if they weren't using a different blank. They told me everything is the same but they did confirm that when they were testing prototypes for the new Avid series that the guide train along with the split grip did have the same consensus among their staff when testing it. I'd say that is micro guides are a deal breaker for guys that like to use braid with a leader, that would be the only con, as I said, I fished both rods in the same length, power, and action using the same line and lure side by side and there was a noticeable difference in the way the rod handled and the feel, they didn't feel like they were even close to being the same blank.

Do you consider avid x an upgrade to the avid?