Bed Fishing

[fissure_man]

45 minutes ago, TOXIC said:

Google.  Just so you know, if you are fishing during the spawn and catching fish, chances are you got them off a bed even if you didn't see it.  So many factors play into spawning.  I based my comments on following Michigan's recent opening up their season for catch and release for the first time in years.  They performed a lot of studies and concluded that it caused no harm.  The meat fishing season is still regulated because if you want to make sure a fish doesn't spawn, that's the way to do it.  There's the next debate.  Keep a limit for the table of not? 

 

I’ve read studies but still don’t have a conclusive answer, at least in a general sense.  There are many examples of fisheries that have withstood heavy bed fishing pressure for years with apparently no ill effects, but that doesn’t prove that bed fishing can’t impact populations.  The Michigan studies – were those on Lake St. Clair, perhaps the most productive smallmouth lake in the world, where the bass are still protected on the Canadian side during winter/spring?  How far can we reasonably extrapolate those results?

 

Bed fishing DOES impact individual broods/nests, and if ‘enough’ broods are lost, recruitment to adulthood will suffer – common sense. But what is ‘enough,’ and can C&R bed-fishing reasonably cause ‘enough’ brood loss to have a population-level impact?  In many cases, probably not.  But that’s tough to generalize, and any reputable study will not claim to have a broadly applicable answer without significant caveats.  How does a lake like St. Clair compare to a highly pressured 2 acre pond, or a lake with an already marginal bass population?

 

If anyone does have irrefutable proof that bed fishing is universally harmless, send it up to Ontario so I can start bass fishing before the end of June without having to drive 4 hrs away

[TOXIC]

Agreed.....It is a tradeoff for sure.  Here is a Florida study....Just so that the expanse and location of St Clair is not a factor and this deals with greenheads.  

 

FWRI researchers have completed a four-year study looking at the consequences of bed fishing.

The first two years were completed in hatchery ponds at the Florida Bass Conservation Center. The Last two years were completed in small natural lakes in Ocala National Forest. Bass were tracked genetically and each nest was marked and observed. Nests were fished and caught bass were safely stored away for 60 minutes before being returned. The results show that bed fishing does not significantly impact the numbers of young bass entering the next generation. 30% of all wild beds succeeded whether they are fished or not.

[scaleface]

4 minutes ago, fissure_man said:

 

I’ve read studies but still don’t have a conclusive answer, at least in a general sense.  There are many examples of fisheries that have withstood heavy bed fishing pressure for years with apparently no ill effects, but that doesn’t prove that bed fishing can’t impact populations.  The Michigan studies – were those on Lake St. Clair, perhaps the most productive smallmouth lake in the world, where the bass are still protected on the Canadian side during winter/spring?  How far can we reasonably extrapolate those results?

 

Bed fishing DOES impact individual broods/nests, and if ‘enough’ broods are lost, recruitment to adulthood will suffer – common sense. But what is ‘enough,’ and can C&R bed-fishing reasonably cause ‘enough’ brood loss to have a population-level impact?  In many cases, probably not.  But that’s tough to generalize, and any reputable study will not claim to have a broadly applicable answer without significant caveats.  How does a lake like St. Clair compare to a highly pressured 2 acre pond, or a lake with an already marginal bass population?

 

If anyone does have irrefutable proof that bed fishing is universally harmless, send it up to Ontario so I can start bass fishing before the end of June without having to drive 4 hrs away

 

 All good points , especially comparing a small pond to a huge lake . I can see where a heavily pressured pond is a lot more vulnerable than a massive lake .

[.ghoti.]

I think we need to be reminded, from time to time, that like it or not, fishing is a blood sport. Even practicing catch and release, we all kill a few fish every year. For those who practice catch and eat, that's their right to do so, as long as they observe local regulations. If you catch a fish off a spawning bed, you have disrupted the spawning cycle for that fish. Does that cause irreparable harm? I don't know, and neither do you.

 

There have been studies conducted to determine the answer to that question. And, what are such studies? The short answer is, statistics. Anybody who understands statistics knows you can make a data set prove whatever it is you wish to prove. I am a Six Sigma blackbelt. And, after completing that training, I firmly believe that Mark Twain hit the nail squarely on the head, when he said, "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics". 

 

Trout fishermen have this manta: a trout is too precious to only be caught once. Now that catch and release has achieved the status of a sacred commandment, bass fishermen have become as goofy as trout fishermen.

 

A fishery is a complex ecosystem. One which is in a state of constant change. Do we affect the system when we fish? Of course. But is it truly significant? Good question. Living creatures have the ability to adapt the rapidly changing conditions, despite the claims of those who seem always ready to shout doom and gloom. Examples? Hydrilla, snakeheads, gobies, zebra mussels, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,. Any of these things destroy the fisheries they "infected"?

 

Mother Nature must have been a Marine. She can always improvise, adapt, overcome.

[Fun4Me]

This subject has become much like politics. The far left and the far right are represented by *I would never do it* and *who cares, fish are still around* guys, and those in the middle who say *sometimes I do, but I try and be respectful*. I would say most people fall in the middle just like anything else political.

 

No offense meant to anyone here.

[Dwight Hottle]

14 hours ago, slonezp said:

Bass swimming from bed to bed? Sounds like me after I got divorced only I never got caught 

 

Yea but what did you catch?

[Catt]

1 hour ago, fissure_man said:

 How does a lake like St. Clair compare to a highly pressured 2 acre pond, or a lake with an already marginal bass population?

 

If anyone does have irrefutable proof that bed fishing is universally harmless, send it up to Ontario so I can start bass fishing before the end of June without having to drive 4 hrs away

 

1 hour ago, .ghoti. said:

I think we need to be reminded, from time to time, that like it or not, fishing is a blood sport. Even practicing catch and release, we all kill a few fish every year. For those who practice catch and eat, that's their right to do so, as long as they observe local regulations. If you catch a fish off a spawning bed, you have disrupted the spawning cycle for that fish. Does that cause irreparable harm? I don't know, and neither do you.

 

There have been studies conducted to determine the answer to that question. And, what are such studies? The short answer is, statistics. Anybody who understands statistics knows you can make a data set prove whatever it is you wish to prove. I am a Six Sigma blackbelt. And, after completing that training, I firmly believe that Mark Twain hit the nail squarely on the head, when he said, "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics". 

 

Trout fishermen have this manta: a trout is too precious to only be caught once. Now that catch and release has achieved the status of a sacred commandment, bass fishermen have become as goofy as trout fishermen.

 

A fishery is a complex ecosystem. One which is in a state of constant change. Do we affect the system when we fish? Of course. But is it truly significant? Good question. Living creatures have the ability to adapt the rapidly changing conditions, despite the claims of those who seem always ready to shout doom and gloom. Examples? Hydrilla, snakeheads, gobies, zebra mussels, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,. Any of these things destroy the fisheries they "infected"?

 

Mother Nature must have been a Marine. She can always improvise, adapt, overcome.

 

Probably the most comprehensive research done on this subject is performed by Texas Parks & Wildlife. TP&W's research has been ongoing for the last 15 yrs.

 

No we cannot compare a 190,000 square acre Toledo Bend to a 5 acre farm pond!

 

At what size body of does the impact drop to being a non-factor?

 

Is that impact to the spawn 0% or 99%-?

[scaleface]

I remember trolling down a bank and seeing hundreds of thousands  of bass fry . I know they were bass because I caught several males guarding them . Do you think  that if  the majority  of those baby bass   just disappeared , there would still be  approximately the same number of fish reach a year in age ?  I'm thinking so but can never be certain  .The bigger the spawn the lower the percentage will survive  , the less the spawn the greater the percentage .

[corn-on-the-rob]

Though these are usually tense topics, I encourage everyone to stay open-minded and calm because we can all always learn something, or at least gather other view points.

 

The trouble with any topic like this, is that though there have been some studies, there is no hard fact that points either direction. The only fact is that depending on the lake, the year, etc., it may or may not effect the bass, or it could hurt populations, or it could help populations. It is insanely difficult to discern which case your lake may be unless you have the data which is extremely hard to obtain, let alone a large enough sample across time to actually correlate it with enough certainty.

 

The only qualm I have about the topic are people on the extreme ends.

 

1. The guy who doesn't think he has any impact on populations and routinely keeps large bass to kill, no matter if during the spawn or not.

 

2. The guy who says don't bed fish but he is out slamming fish during the spawn season but doesn't think he is affecting anything because he isn't sight fishing. If you are fishing during the spawn at all, you cannot say for certain that the fish you caught by not sight fishing was less impacted than one that you left alone because you could see him. End of story.

[Catt]

1 hour ago, corn-on-the-rob said:

Though these are usually tense topics, I encourage everyone to stay open-minded and calm because we can all always learn something, or at least gather other view points.

 

The trouble with any topic like this, is that though there have been some studies, there is no hard fact that points either direction. The only fact is that depending on the lake, the year, etc., it may or may not effect the bass, or it could hurt populations, or it could help populations. It is insanely difficult to discern which case your lake may be unless you have the data which is extremely hard to obtain, let alone a large enough sample across time to actually correlate it with enough certainty.

 

The only qualm I have about the topic are people on the extreme ends.

 

1. The guy who doesn't think he has any impact on populations and routinely keeps large bass to kill, no matter if during the spawn or not.

 

2. The guy who says don't bed fish but he is out slamming fish during the spawn season but doesn't think he is affecting anything because he isn't sight fishing. If you are fishing during the spawn at all, you cannot say for certain that the fish you caught by not sight fishing was less impacted than one that you left alone because you could see him. End of story.

 

I greatly disagree!

 

Texas Parks & Wildlife has more data from more bodies of water than anyone.

 

Generally, a good male that is aggressive and active will attract more than one female to his nest and spawn with each of them. Along with that, an active female will spawn a number of times and, in most cases, in a number of different males' nests. She moves down the shoreline making it with different males. The male sits in one spot and waits for more females to come by. I think that is sort of a hedge (on the part of the female) against an infertile male spoiling the hatch of a good fertile female. So she spread her eggs around and he spreads his fertility around. That ensures a higher success rate for that spawn.

 

Ken Cook believes that the female often moves on and off of the bed to deposit more eggs (hatchery studies support this claim). Few females drop all of their eggs at once. Instead, they expel a portion and then move off to a nearbybreakline, bush or grass edge.

 It is this sporadic purging of eggs and the ability to spawn with different males on several nests that keeps the annual spring bedding season from being severely impacted by large tournaments.

 

Texas Parks & Wildlife Department biologist Clarence Bowling says studies have shown that a female (when handled properly) will simply locate a bed and an available male in the area where she is released and complete spawning.

 

GET A LOCK ON THE SPAWN By Tim Tucker

[Team9nine]

Just to throw this into the mix, a new study out of Florida determined you only need 2 successful broods per acre in order to maintain the existing population.

[WRB]

California's small trophy bass lakes like Dixon and Castaic lagoon can be affected by high fishing pressure from skilled anglers. Medium size lakes like Castiac upper lake and Casitas, both about 2,000 acres with clear water and minimal spawning sites can also be impacted from high pressure bed fishing. Both Castiac and Casitas set aside closed protected areas to insure decent recruitment classes from spawning bass. Both Castiac and Casitas no longer have trophy size bass populations due to low prey fish populations at Casitas and striper competition for prey fish at Castiac, not from bed fishing.

Catch & Release does play an important factor as the vast majority of bed bass are returned after being caught within a few hours. The problem is and always has been trophy size bass tend to end up poorly handled for photos, weighing and sharing/bragging with other anglers. Most recreational anglers tend to take home thier PB trophy bass, those bass are lost. Large size impoundments over 20,000 acres bed fishing is so widely spread out the impact would be minimal.

Tom

[Catt]

@WRB while I agree with the results I disagree with the sizes. Not all Texas lakes are the size of Toledo Bend & TP&W studies still hold true.

 

Which brings us to the next point, it depends on each individual body of water!

Is that impact to the spawn 0% or 99%- ?

 

[.ghoti.]

9 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

Which brings us to the next point, it depends on each individual body of water!

Is that impact to the spawn 0% or 99%- ?

 

I'll say it again. I don't know, and neither do you, or anybody else.

[corn-on-the-rob]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

 

I greatly disagree!

 

Texas Parks & Wildlife has more data from more bodies of water than anyone.

 

Generally, a good male that is aggressive and active will attract more than one female to his nest and spawn with each of them. Along with that, an active female will spawn a number of times and, in most cases, in a number of different males' nests. She moves down the shoreline making it with different males. The male sits in one spot and waits for more females to come by. I think that is sort of a hedge (on the part of the female) against an infertile male spoiling the hatch of a good fertile female. So she spread her eggs around and he spreads his fertility around. That ensures a higher success rate for that spawn.

 

Ken Cook believes that the female often moves on and off of the bed to deposit more eggs (hatchery studies support this claim). Few females drop all of their eggs at once. Instead, they expel a portion and then move off to a nearbybreakline, bush or grass edge.

 It is this sporadic purging of eggs and the ability to spawn with different males on several nests that keeps the annual spring bedding season from being severely impacted by large tournaments.

 

Texas Parks & Wildlife Department biologist Clarence Bowling says studies have shown that a female (when handled properly) will simply locate a bed and an available male in the area where she is released and complete spawning.

 

GET A LOCK ON THE SPAWN By Tim Tucker

 

I feel ya catt. I take it the part you are specifically disagreeing with is my comment about studies?

 

While I agree with everything you have said, I feel that you can only extrapolate the data on these lakes on very or somewhat similar fisheries, basically all I meant to say is that many lakes are/can/will be impacted at least a little differently than the next whether it be positively or negatively or not at all; there is not an absolute for ALL lakes.

[WRB]

Back in the 90's peake period of Castaic and Casitas the fishing pressure on these 2 lakes was extremely high due in part to the hysteria created by Bassin mag's $1,000,000 prize offered for a new world record bass. It was a circus on those lakes from Feburary to April during the spawn cycle, boats from all over the country came to catch giant bass. There wasn't any live bait restrictions for Bassins prize money, if it's legal use it. The big bass populations took a heavy hit, hundreds of giant bass were hauled out of these small lakes.

During the spawn is the only time the big girls are up visible in shallow water, making them targets. After the spawn the catch numbers drop to very few caught the balance of the year. What was the % of the big bass population after 90's verses before...way down based on catch rates since then. The big bass population started to recover at Casitas until the trout plants stopped, the population crashed as a direct result of low high protein prey population, not bed fishing. Stripers invaded Castiac as a result of dam construction and took over being primary predators out competing the big bass, the population crashed but not from bed fishing after the Bassin prize money dissapeared in the late 90's. Normal tournament and recreational fishing combined with C & R, I would agree bed fishing isn't harmful with decent lake management policies.

Tom

[slonezp]

9 hours ago, Dwight Hottle said:

 

Yea but what did you catch?

Got the skunk once. Never saw her again after that.

[clh121787]

On 3/7/2017 at 10:54 AM, Catt said:

If Big Momma Nadine decided this morning she going to a net to lay eggs & ya catch her on the way is it not still interfering with the spawn?

 

If Big Momma Nadine has laid her eggs & decides to move on to another nest & ya catch her is this still not interfering with the spawn?

BOOM , mind blown. Bed fishing is bass fishing period. Don't bother me one bit. If you wanna eat a big female don't bother me one bit. I caught a few limit of bucks recently and wound up with 2 small girls full of roe ... do I even feel one iota of remorse? Hell no

[Catt]

4 hours ago, .ghoti. said:

I'll say it again. I don't know, and neither do you, or anybody else.

 

There it is right there!

 

How do ya watch each female?

How do ya watch each Juvenile?

How do ya watch each Fry?

How do ya watch each Fingerling?

 

Is there an impact?

Yes!

 

How much of an impact?

Don't know for sure; depends on the body of water!

[HookRz]

This thread has opened up my mind quite a bit. I still won't sight fish, I hope you can respect that, but I'm willing to bet in hyper-productive fisheries the harm is minimal. I also believe selective harvest of smaller bass can be a good thing in small natural lakes. I often do so myself during the hard water season when bass flesh becomes more palatable. Frankly I don't bother keeping Crappie after early spring. My southern based fishing brothers won't understand but their texture when caught from warm water Crappie are like eating fried cottage cheese when compared to Yellow Perch or Walleye. But I digress.

 

It is 100% personal choice within the confines of the law. But I would implore you, when weighing scientific evidence to bolster your arguments confine yourselves to studies published in high ranked peer review journals. Forget self published university reports and what you read on a blog or in a magazine whose  job it is to sell fishing stuff. Follow the money. Think about your own fisheries. If they are good, could they be even better? 

 

The the fisheries are all different, the $$$ reaped by local economies vary, and that largely accounts for the lack of consensus among biologists not submitting their papers to respected journals. 

 

Not only that that but the bass are different. In particular Smallmouth in Northern climes and riverine environments have been shown to suffer more from spawn fishing and tournament fishing in general. I'm glad to see them protected. I grew up on Lake Erie where forty years ago a Smallmouth Bass  received no more respect than a sheepshead (freshwater Drum) and were routinely smacked on the gunnels and thrown to the gulls because they ate Perch and Walleye fry. Protecting them shows how far we have progressed as sport fisherman and how far respect for the bass has come. 

 

Tight lines brothers! I can say one thing for sure. For the most part the best folk I know, the most concerned about the health of our waters and and the fish that swim in them, are you. Therefore I can respect each of your thought out decisions as to the stewardship of your waters. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, TOXIC said:

Agreed.....It is a tradeoff for sure.  Here is a Florida study....Just so that the expanse and location of St Clair is not a factor and this deals with greenheads.  

 

FWRI researchers have completed a four-year study looking at the consequences of bed fishing.

The first two years were completed in hatchery ponds at the Florida Bass Conservation Center. The Last two years were completed in small natural lakes in Ocala National Forest. Bass were tracked genetically and each nest was marked and observed. Nests were fished and caught bass were safely stored away for 60 minutes before being returned. The results show that bed fishing does not significantly impact the numbers of young bass entering the next generation. 30% of all wild beds succeeded whether they are fished or not.

Floridas economy is effected by tourism, partly boosted by the influx of bassers looking to catch the trophy of a life time. Which journal reviewed, gave approval, and published this paper? 

[greentrout]

Remember the old Bill Dance forum when this topic came up and it was dynamite. Friends became enemies. Me, I've mellowed and no longer totally frown on bed fishing. But believe it depends on the circumstances of the body of water and conditions. I've seen small bodies of waters like ponds of 2 to 10 acres I believe were ruined by bed fishing. Saw guys who never fished year round but made it a point during the spawn to fish these small accessible waters and stage over the big female for hours to coax her into a bite with a frog or crawfish. Takes a long time to replicate 5 and 6 pound bass on small waters like that.

 

Bigger waters seem most of the time to be the exception although I do know in some of the Northern states bedding areas are roped off from fishermen. I'm no biologist and I do respect what they present as evidence but keep my skepticism that it depends on the body of water.

 

I won't judge another fisherman who is abiding by the law and has the right to fish a bed and keep the fish if caught. It's his decision.

 

As a side, Doug Hannon, the old Bass Professor, refused to fish for the LMB on a bed.

[RichF]

Not a whole lot of sport pulling males of nests so I don't do it.  If it's legal in your area, go for it.  I tend to agree that all bodies of water are different and hence can suffer different effects from the practice.  The good thing is, we as anglers, are more educated than ever before so I'm pretty confident that our fisheries will stay healthy for many years to come.  

[Neil McCauley]

Think it depends on the body of water and its bass population. If it's a small lake with declining fish from pressure, invasive speceies, habitat loss, whatever, and then someone is fishing spawning beds, seems worth frowning on. IMO respect of people's right to behave badly doesn't also exempt them from criticism and being called out.