Back And Front Of The Boat Etiquette

[jhoffman]

On 2/17/2017 at 8:04 AM, Catt said:

Exactly the reasons I don't belong to a club or fish club tournaments!

 

 

Bingo, I left the club I was in because the club BS is just that BS. Im fishing tournaments to fish. I have zero desire to ever join another club.

[NorthwestBasser]

We fish boaters and co anglers all in one pot in my club. So, everyman for himself. Except that aside from a couple guys, every man is a really good guy. No boaters are purposely trying to back seat us co anglers. We're out here to have FUN! Our biggest pot of the year, 1st place will get a check for $1000- 1300, the other 9 tournaments 1st place will grab 350- 600 bucks. So if you win you get a little money, which is awesome, but it's far from the reason we do this. As a co Angler, I will pay my share of gas, oil, and wear n' tear... help launch in the morning and trailer it when we are done. We have a half water rule, I get to choose where we fish half the day, he chooses the other half. I don't and won't take the front of the boat, these are expensive machines that don't belong to me. I want to win a tournament sure, but only one co angler in our clubs history has ever won a tourney. Co anglers in my club fish to learn, to get off the bank or out of the kayak, and to fish new lakes and rivers. Don't enter a tournament as a co Angler and expect to win or be mad if you dont. It wasn't your boaters fault. Now, we do have one element that helps the boaters to be encouraged to give us "virgin" water, we have a side pot for team weight. Heaviest boat wins. So a boater can place first, catch big fish of the day, and win the team pot. Hasnt happened that way yet, but someone is bound to get lucky one of these weekends!

[Fishin' Fool]

On 2/16/2017 at 7:27 PM, Logan S said:

The boater/co-angler system is not perfect...But it is what it is.  It sounds like your group doesn't have separate divisions for boaters and co-anglers...I don't want to disparage whatever group you're with - But IMO that can really suck for the co-anglers and explains a lot about the differences in your posts versus mine.  The trend has been clubs moving to the split divisions so the co-anglers aren't competing against the boaters.  For the co-angler that means they are all on the same playing field in regards to the challenges of being in the back of the boat.  It also makes it easier for the boater and co-angler cooperate without tension since they aren't competing against each other.  Our club has been this way for the last 10 years or so and I see more and more clubs adopting this system.  It mimics the "Pro/Am" format.  If it's not a team event, this is the only fair format for the co-angler IMO.  

 

I don't think any of the posts so far have been negatively slanted toward co-anglers..But I do think it can be a little difficult for a boater to put their perspective into words on a forum without someone thinking they are selfish or 'elitist'.  

 

These statements you made are essentially exactly what I said in my post...Although they sort of contradict some of the stuff in your first couple posts.

 

This is where it came from.  This is also one of the statements that prompted the "I'm not a guide" response in my mind initially.  I don't think any of the posts so far have indicated that the co-angler is simply along for a boat ride.

 

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Not trying to argue at all...It can be a tough topic since many times each side doesn't really know what it's like to be on the other side.  

 

Logan,

I'm interested in hearing how your club runs using boaters versus boaters and co-anglers versus co-anglers. We could post on here or private message or I'll give you my email address. Maybe I could get you to email me a copy of your club rules. I'm really interested in hearing the details of how you guys make it work from tournament points to payouts. Thanks in advance. 

[Logan S]

Just now, Fishin' Fool said:

 

Logan,

I'm interested in hearing how your club runs using boaters versus boaters and co-anglers versus co-anglers. We could post on here or private message or I'll give you my email address. I'm really interested in hearing the details of how you guys make it work from tournament points to payouts. Thanks in advance. 

It's pretty simple...Both divisions are simply separated - completely.  Boaters are only competing against the other boaters and co's are only competing against the other co's.  Technically speaking, all our tournaments are actually two separate tournaments - The boater tournament and the co-angler tournament.  Everyone is obviously bound by the same club rules, times, etc...

 

Money/Placement wise, it's two separate pots.  All the boater's fees are in the boater pot and all the co's fees are in the co-angler pot.  Payouts are for the top 3 plus lunker in each division...So we'll have checks for the top 3 boaters plus lunker from the boater pot only and then checks for the top 3 co-anglers plus lunker from the co-angler pot only.  Payouts aren't always the same since there can be more boaters than co's signed up, making the total boater pot bigger.

 

For AOY, it's separated the same way...each division awards points based on placement and at the end of the year we have awards for Boater AOY and Co-Angler AOY.   

 

Pairings are done by random draw the week before the tournament.  If there are more boaters than co's signed up, there will simply be boaters fishing alone.  If there are more co's than boaters, we have a waiting list with a priority based on payments date/time (co's that don't get in are refunded so that money isn't in the co-angler pot).  For some of the further away tournaments we allow boaters/co's to choose partners if they wish to make travel/lodging logistics easier (all the same rules apply).  

 

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I would also like to point to out that team events are a completely different animal...Comparing a team club/event to boater/co (or combined) club/event is an apples vs oranges comparison.  

[Fishin' Fool]

2 minutes ago, Logan S said:

It's pretty simple...Both divisions are simply separated - completely.  Boaters are only competing against the other boaters and co's are only competing against the other co's.  Technically speaking, all our tournaments are actually two separate tournaments - The boater tournament and the co-angler tournament.  Everyone is obviously bound by the same club rules, times, etc...

 

Money/Placement wise, it's two separate pots.  All the boater's fees are in the boater pot and all the co's fees are in the co-angler pot.  Payouts are for the top 3 plus lunker in each division...So we'll have checks for the top 3 boaters plus lunker from the boater pot only and then checks for the top 3 co-anglers plus lunker from the co-angler pot only.  Payouts aren't always the same since there can be more boaters than co's signed up, making the total boater pot bigger.

 

For AOY, it's separated the same way...each division awards points based on placement and at the end of the year we have awards for Boater AOY and Co-Angler AOY.   

 

Pairings are done by random draw the week before the tournament.  If there are more boaters than co's signed up, there will simply be boaters fishing alone.  If there are more co's than boaters, we have a waiting list with a priority based on payments date/time (co's that don't get in are refunded so that money isn't in the co-angler pot).  For some of the further away tournaments we allow boaters/co's to choose partners if they wish to make travel/lodging logistics easier (all the same rules apply).  

 

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I would also like to point to out that team events are a completely different animal...Comparing a team club/event to boater/co (or combined) club/event is an apples vs oranges comparison.  

 

Thank you for this information. Is there ever a situation where a boater fishes the tournament as a co-angler (boat broke down, small boat on big water) and how is that handled regarding points? Or do they just not fish the event?

[Logan S]

11 minutes ago, Fishin' Fool said:

 

Thank you for this information. Is there ever a situation where a boater fishes the tournament as a co-angler (boat broke down, small boat on big water) and how is that handled regarding points? Or do they just not fish the event?

I knew I'd forget something ...

 

The way it works is that if you're a boater, you're a boater no matter what...So even if I fish in the back of a boat for whatever reason, I'm still in the boater division competing against the boaters for that event and for AOY points and my fee is still in the boater pot.  

 

Co-anglers can't fish as a boater without completely jumping into the boater division...That rarely is an issue though, but has come up when a co-angler buys a boat mid-season.  They either finish out the season as a co-angler, or completely convert for the rest of the season...Things get tricky for AOY points if a co switches to boater, but we do have rule in place for it - No need to hash it out here though.  

 

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you want to get into the finer details of everything...I'm happy to talk about it but don't want to distract from the original topic any further, although it is probably at least a little helpful/interesting to others .  

[Catt]

@Logan S what stops the boater from front ending the co-angler?

 

In our Team Tournaments each angler has to at least boat one of the 5 bass & some they both have to boat 2 of the 5 with the 5th going to whom ever.

[Fishin' Fool]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

@Logan S what stops the boater from front ending the co-angler?

 

In our Team Tournaments each angler has to at least boat one of the 5 bass & some they both have to boat 2 of the 5 with the 5th going to whom ever.

 

I'm not going to say it doesn't happen but if the boater is not competing against the co-angler I would think he's more apt to work with his co. 

[RoLo]

As long as I've been fishing from a boat (forever), I still can't buy into the notion

of "New Water" vs "Used Water". First off, it's always a good idea for anglers in the same boat

to fish different lures and in different depth zones. Of course, when a certain lure or depth zone

dominates the action, then all anglers should concentrate on that pattern.

But even when all hands are working the same lure in the same depth zone,

there are a still a host of variables that separate one angler from the next (NO, not color).

 

For starters, suppose the 'new-water' angler retrieves his lure a smidgen outside the strike window,

but the 'used-water' angler retrieves his lure right down-the-pipe. In heavy cover and in dingy water,
we're only talking about inches folks. Suppose the 'new-water' angler retrieves his lure a tad too fast

for the present mood of the bass, but the 'used-water' angler offers the same lure at the same depth,

but uses a different speed or action. Even when all things are equal, who hasn't seen instances

when the first cast seems to wake up a bass, and the second cast elicits an explosion?

Among many of my stale jokes, I'll often say to my wife: "You're wasting your time,

I already casted over there". If I got a dollar every time she rubbed that joke in my nose,

I'd never have to pay another launch fee.  

 

Roger

[kroberts9]

3 minutes ago, RoLo said:

As long as I've been fishing from a boat (forever), I still can't buy into the notion of "New Water" & "Used Water".

First off, it's always a good idea for different anglers to fish different lures and in different depth zones.

Of course, when a certain lure or depth zone dominates the action, then all anglers should concentrate on that pattern.

But even when all hands are working the same lure, in the same depth zone, there are a still a host of variables

that separate one angler from the next.

 

For starters, suppose the 'new-water' angler retrieves his lure a smidgen outside the strike window, but the used-water angler retrieves his lure right down the pipe. In heavy cover and in dingy water, we're only talking about inches!

Suppose the new-water angler retrieves his lure a tad too fast for the present mood of the bass, but the used-water angler

offers the same lure at the same depth, but uses a different speed and action. Even when all things equal,

who hasn't seen instances when the first cast seems to wake up a bass, and the second cast elicits an explosion?

Among many of my stale jokes, I'll often say to my wife: "You're wasting your time, I just made a cast over there".

If I had a dollar every time she rubbed that joke in my nose, I'd never have to pay a launch fee again 

 

Roger

I agree with this statement. Fish do move and not every angler is crelated equal great insight

[RoLo]

18 minutes ago, kroberts9 said:

I agree with this statement. Fish do move and not every angler is crelated equal great insight

 

You're correct.

I never even addressed bass mobility (bass scooting away from under the hull)

which further convolutes the snapshot image implied by 'new water' vs. 'used water'.

[Logan S]

1 hour ago, Catt said:

@Logan S what stops the boater from front ending the co-angler?

Speaking specifically about rules?  Nothing.  Now that doesn't mean that it happens or we 'allow' it to happen...We just don't tell people what they can or can't do with their own boats, outside of obvious/mandatory safety rules.  

 

The one thing to be said about a division club like ours is that all the Co-anglers are in the same boat (pun intended) when it comes the challenges and disadvantages of being in the back.  They also don't need to worry about competing with their boater or any of the other boaters.  

 

IMO the whole subject of back-seating or front-ending or whatever you want to call is overblown on internet forums....It comes up waaaaaaaaay more often on forums online than it ever does in real life.  There are also some people out there that just won't ever be happy with anything...And they are often the ones more likely to get negative online or otherwise.  I won't go into story time here...But I've had a few people over the years that would fall into this category.  All you can do is just shake your head while thinking, "Really, dude?", in your head and keep on with your plan for the day.  

 

1 hour ago, Catt said:

In our Team Tournaments each angler has to at least boat one of the 5 bass & some they both have to boat 2 of the 5 with the 5th going to whom ever.

A team tournament, trail, or club is a completely different dynamic than a boater/co-angler or other non-team tournament, trail, or club.  Some people prefer one while other people prefer the other.  I totally get what you're saying, but it's an apples vs oranges comparison IMO.  I'm not into team tournaments - I do fish them here and there - but overall I prefer do my own thing and compete against other individuals as opposed to teams.  One isn't better than the other, they're just different.  

[Catt]

@RoLo Megabucks Tournaments!

 

In Megabucks tournaments the lake is divided into 10 sections, the top 10 qualifying anglers rotate through each section every 50 minutes. 

 

Larry Nixon won 4 times

 

@Logan S I've been tournament fishing since 1972 & front-ending has been around long before the internet.

 

Everything is "hunky-dory" until money hits the table! 

 

I've never understood why two people who are supposedly friends don't understand the benefits of fishing together.

 

How the team game plans strengths & weaknesses will determine how successful they will be!

 

Y'all must fish together as a team not as two individuals out fishing!

 

When done in unison both anglers can cover water quickly & throughly, which allows for a greater opportunity to establish patterns faster!

[Logan S]

4 hours ago, Catt said:

@Logan S I've been tournament fishing since 1972 & front-ending has been around long before the internet.

 

Everything is "hunky-dory" until money hits the table! 

 

I've never understood why two people who are supposedly friends don't understand the benefits of fishing together.

 

How the team game plans strengths & weaknesses will determine how successful they will be!

 

Y'all must fish together as a team not as two individuals out fishing!

 

When done in unison both anglers can cover water quickly & throughly, which allows for a greater opportunity to establish patterns faster!

All I'm saying is that the complaints about it are far more numerous on the internet than they are in real life...And IMO can paint an unfair picture of the boater/co-angler dynamic.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen or didn't happen before.  

 

I totally get what your saying about teamwork and it's all well reasoned and valid...It just doesn't really apply to non-team events in the real world.  We're not a team, we're competing individually - even if not against each other, it's still individually.  

[Catt]

5 minutes ago, Logan S said:

I totally get what your saying about teamwork and it's all well reasoned and valid...It just doesn't really apply to non-team events in the real world.  We're not a team, we're competing individually - even if not against each other, it's still individually.  

 

When two anglers in a boat are competing individually then the one in control of the boat will put the other at a disadvantage... It's human nature & that is the real world.

 

When done in unison both anglers cover water quicker & more throughly, allowing for a greater opportunity to establish patterns faster they also eliminate nonproductive water quicker.

 

I not saying ya need to switch to "Team" tournaments, ya just need to fish as one.

[scaleface]

Club tournaments , I always gave the non boater plenty of opportunities . If we were going down a bank we took turns making first cast at cover.  It was a fun competition and him or  i better make the first cast count because it is open game after that . Three anglers won tourneys from the back seat of my boat . I didnt care who won as long as it came from my boat . I also won two  times from the back .

[SWVABass]

My club fishes boaters and non boaters against each other, no separating them. As a co angler and being one of 3 in the club I can pick my boater. I have found a great boater who treats me very well. Like Catt has said about fishing as a team it's what we do, we know we are competing against each other but we are more focused on figuring out that smaller than a pea sized green fish than beating each other. Due to a knee replacement surgery my boater allows me to run the front 75% of the time now, and believe it not he still out fishes me from the back, I have yet to learn how to slow down but I'm learning.

 

if co anglers are that determined to win they need to do one of two things, find a club where you only compete against the other co anglers or buy a boat. I signed up to fish and learn, I've been lucky and placed first and second from the back of the boat before, I fished my way with what I had and it worked out. But don't complain cause you don't get first shot at everything.

[Wurming67]

It is nice to fish with someone that thinks of the co angler but the bottom line it's his boat and you gotta do what he wants to do and take what he gives you if not go get your own boat.