Horsepower rating

[Jed Cutshall Fishing]

Hey everyone, I have a question. I am looking into purchasing a 2005 Ranger Z20 with a 2009 Mercury ProXS 250. The problem is, the z20 model is only rated for a 225hp motor. They guy I'm buying from says that's only because they didn't make the 250 in 2005, and the US Coast Guard will override the max horsepower rating on the boat. Can anyone tell me if this is legit?

Thanks,

Jed

[WIGuide]

That's not legit. As far as the boat being able to handle the horsepower and weight it definitely will. The 225's and 250's are built with the same block and are usually listed with identical weight. The extra power will get you out of the hole a little quicker and end up being a few miles an hour more on the upper end. The issue becomes if you want to get insurance, or fish tournaments out of it. If someone were to notice that your boat is overrated, in most tournaments they could have you dq-ed. If you ever got in an accident with it, you'd most likely be held liable.

[WRB]

You can always change to the 225 cowling, engines power head are identicle.

Tom

Didn't want to leave the impression this suggestion was cheating, it isn't as the 225 and 250 are the same size and weight engine, the difference being ignition, injectors and exhaust tunning. This means a 250 can be changed into a 225 if needed. Boat hull or vin numbers are not associated with the engine bolted onto it. The upgrade in 25 hp or 10% isn't a safety issue with the OP's boat.

Tom

 

[Way2slow]

Living in Tennessee, I wouldn't worry as much about what the Coast Guard might say, since they will most likely never see it, as what the insurance company will say.  They sometimes have a tolerance they will allow for over powering, but I don't think many are going to smile at a 25hp over.

As mentioned also, that would get you disqualified from most any BASS sanctioned tournament  

 

[fishnkamp]

Check with Ranger and see if they can issue you a capacity plate that reflects the 250 hp as max.  If they made the same boat later with that rating they may be able to do so.  If not I would have the decaling changed on the engine cowl.

[Fishing Rhino]

Doesn't sound legit to me.

 

Changing the HP number on a cowl will not fool a knowledgeable law enforcement officer.  Some try that game for limited horsepower bodies of water and get caught.  Further, if caught, it proves deliberate intent to break the law, which could result in additional charges.

 

I doubt that Ranger would issue a capacity plate that is out of their control.  It seems to me that any boat manufacturer would only issue such a plate to one of their authorized dealerships who would install the new plate.  

 

They wouldn't want the liability that might result.  There are unscrupulous people in this imperfect world.

 

 

 

 

[A-Jay]

I'd have to agree with the previous responses here ~ BS Flag is at Full Mast.

 

That 'seller' either lacks knowledge or is making a deliberate attempt to deceive you; anything for a sale.  

There will be no legitimate way around having that over HP motor on that boat. 

Perhaps one solution is to buy the boat as is but offer less $$.  How much less may be whatever you feel the time & effort is worth to sell the 250 and repower it with a new or used motor that fits within the posted HP rating for the hull.

My guess is if this rig has only been on the market for a short time, the seller will be unwilling to go there as he/she probably feels it can be sold at the asking price to someone who is willing to swallow his BS story. 

Bottom line is hanging that motor on that boat might have seemed like a good idea at the time - but reality is about to set in.

Good Luck

A-Jay

[BrianinMD]

short answer - RUN

 

Long answer - RUN LIKE THE WIND

[Dwight Hottle]

Call your insurance company and ask them before you entertain buying that boat. Without their approval it's a bad deal for you. 

[Al Wolbach]

1 hour ago, Dwight Hottle said:

Call your insurance company and ask them before you entertain buying that boat. Without their approval it's a bad deal for you. 

Good advice. You might want to contact the coast guard as well. Number listed under us govt. They may not have the answer but can give you a number to call.

In East Tennessee there are a large number of high hp motors on the Allisons and Bullets running up and down the lakes. The ones without a trolling motor are a dead giveaway. If you fish Cherokee I'm sure you have seen the Aillisons racing up and down the channel near the dam. These boats are probably insured, you may want to ask one of them or call Jimmy Hensley at tri county marine in Morristown. He could advise you about the possibility of getting a new boat tag.

 

[fishnkamp]

My suggestion about the plate change was in reference to a situation I remember from the past where  a specific new boat model was released with one max hp rating.  The following year it was certified for use with a higher hp outboard. Sinced there were no changes structurally made to the hull they could reissue a new plate with the higher hp rating. I believe it was a Ranger that the new plate was issued for. 

[Al Wolbach]

1 hour ago, fishnkamp said:

My suggestion about the plate change was in reference to a situation I remember from the past where  a specific new boat model was released with one max hp rating.  The following year it was certified for use with a higher hp outboard. Sinced there were no changes structurally made to the hull they could reissue a new plate with the higher hp rating. I believe it was a Ranger that the new plate was issued for. 

If Ranger will do it this would be the easiest solution.

[Way2slow]

My personal feelings are different that most replying.  I've overpowered almost every boat I've owned, some massively.  For instance I have a modified motor I put on my Javelin R-20, rated for 245hp, that dino's at 326hp off the prop.  The boat will run in the lower 80's with full gear, livewells, two people and gas.  However, there is the thing about boat knowledge and being a responsible operator.   If you own a 1,000hp car that will run 200+ mph, doesn't mean you have to drive it that fast. 

Now, there are two major obstacles/concerns when over powering one.  Insurance, is one, buying a nice boat, usually means financing and that means it MUST be insured.  Getting coverage could be a problem, and if you lie about it, it could come back to bite you if you ever needed it.

 

The next is the liability factor.  Get in a accident, even if it's not your fault, a good lawyer will have you for lunch and you may be working for someone else the rest of your life. 

 

If neither of those are problems, then I see no problem with having what ever motor you want.  I don't think Tennessee is one of those states that have laws against it like some states.  Some states its a very serious problem if you get caught with an over powered boat.

[WRB]

The difference between a 250 hp and 275 hp Merc is increase in 10% that can be achieved with the stock ignition up grades and exhaust horns. You could go further by using after market reeds etc.

My point is lots of 250 merc's are on tournament bass boats with "tuned" engines that exceed factory hp ratings. 

I would check with your insurance carrier for sure and the TD of any bass tournament circuit you plan to fish. 

Tom

[J Francho]

I don't recall the insurance company ever asking about the CG plate on my boat.  My Bullet has an "unlimited" rating, as far as HP goes.

[the reel ess]

17 hours ago, Way2slow said:

My personal feelings are different that most replying.  I've overpowered almost every boat I've owned, some massively.  For instance I have a modified motor I put on my Javelin R-20, rated for 245hp, that dino's at 326hp off the prop.  The boat will run in the lower 80's with full gear, livewells, two people and gas.  However, there is the thing about boat knowledge and being a responsible operator.   If you own a 1,000hp car that will run 200+ mph, doesn't mean you have to drive it that fast. 

Now, there are two major obstacles/concerns when over powering one.  Insurance, is one, buying a nice boat, usually means financing and that means it MUST be insured.  Getting coverage could be a problem, and if you lie about it, it could come back to bite you if you ever needed it.

 

The next is the liability factor.  Get in a accident, even if it's not your fault, a good lawyer will have you for lunch and you may be working for someone else the rest of your life. 

 

If neither of those are problems, then I see no problem with having what ever motor you want.  I don't think Tennessee is one of those states that have laws against it like some states.  Some states its a very serious problem if you get caught with an over powered boat.

OP should also consider whether he'll ever use or sell the boat in other states.

[Al Wolbach]

18 hours ago, J Francho said:

I don't recall the insurance company ever asking about the CG plate on my boat.  My Bullet has an "unlimited" rating, as far as HP goes.

 

The insurance company gets its info from boat vin number/hull s/n provided by the manufacturer. Just like the vin number on a car

 

 

 

[J Francho]

That makes sense.

[Jed Cutshall Fishing]

On February 7, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Al Wolbach said:

Good advice. You might want to contact the coast guard as well. Number listed under us govt. They may not have the answer but can give you a number to call.

In East Tennessee there are a large number of high hp motors on the Allisons and Bullets running up and down the lakes. The ones without a trolling motor are a dead giveaway. If you fish Cherokee I'm sure you have seen the Aillisons racing up and down the channel near the dam. These boats are probably insured, you may want to ask one of them or call Jimmy Hensley at tri county marine in Morristown. He could advise you about the possibility of getting a new boat tag.

 

I know Jimmy pretty well. I'll give him a call. Thanks bud!

[A-Jay]

2 hours ago, Jed Cutshall Fishing said:

I know Jimmy pretty well. I'll give him a call. Thanks bud!

 

@Jed Cutshall Fishing if possible, a brief follow up on whatever the final outcome on this one would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

A-Jay

[Peter Eikenberry]

This is the straight scoop on  overpowering. I am a retired Coast Guard officer and engineer and spent 20 years working in the Office of Boating Safety regulating boat manufacturers.  The Federal regulation applies to boat manufacturers. They must rate their monohull outboard powered boats under 20 feet in length for maximum safe horsepower, using a formula published in the regulation.  They must put this on a label with the maximum safe loads and put that on the boat. The regulation does not apply to boats 20 feet or longer. Yours is 20' 5" .  However manufacturers may voluntarily put a label on their boat using the industry standards published by the American Boat and Yacht Council.  These are the standards that the industry has adopted to regulate itself.  The ABYC standards for HP applies boats up to 26 feet in length.

 

Neither of these applies to the boat owner. So under Federal Regulation the owner can do what he wants and will not be cited by the Coast Guard for overpowering. However, if the boat is operated in an erratic or dangerous manner because it is over powered the Coast Guard can cite the operator for negligent (a misdemeanor) or grossly negligent operation (a federal felony that can carry both a fine and jail time) 

 

The catch?  Many states have passed laws saying you cannot exceed the values on the label.  And by the way, in 20 years of dealing with boat manufacturers I have never encountered one that will give you an uprated label.  That would violate their liability insurance so they just don't do it.  In those states that have this law (I don't know if Tennessee is one) you can be cited for overpowering.  Every state has an official called a Boating Law Administrator.  Check with them. 

 

As for the comments above about accidents and insurance they are on the money.  Many insurance companies don't check your boat when they insure it, but if you have an accident and the accident adjuster discovers the boat is overpowered, sorry, you will be denied and the insurance canceled.  I have worked with many insurance adjusters in the boating industry and they all say the same thing. If the boat is overpowered, too bad, you lose. 

 

If you get sued, you are screwed.  All they have to do is show the boat was overpowered and the jury will give the other guy bags of your money.

 

One other thing that must be considered, under Federal regulations boat manufacturers must put flotation in their boats less than 20 feet, and if the builder follows ABYC up to 26 feet. One of the most critical factors in determining the amount of flotation is the weight of the outboard.  So if you repower with a motor that weighs considerably more than the one rated by the manufacturer then you have defeated the flotation and compromised the safety of the boat. Also the engine weight is subtracted from the maximum safe load to determine the weight of the people you can put in the boat, so if the engine weighs more, that reduces the number of people you can safely put in the boat. 

 

So all these things have to be weighed against your desire to go a few miles per hour faster.   Frankly I think you could probably gain those few mphs by getting rid of weight, changing props, and blueprinting the bottom of the hull.  trim tabs might help too. Hanging a bigger motor back there may ruin the handling of the boat, make it susceptible to swamping from it's own wake, and greatly increase fuel use.

[gim]

Great response Peter.  You are wise.

[A-Jay]

On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 8:51 AM, A-Jay said:

 

Bottom line is hanging that motor on that boat might have seemed like a good idea at the time - but reality is about to set in.

Good Luck

A-Jay

 

[J._Bricker]

23 hours ago, gimruis said:

Great response Peter.  You are wise.

 

X2- Thanks for clearing this up

[Darren.]

Welcome aboard, @Peter Eikenberry!