MLF discussions

[IndianaFinesse]

7 hours ago, RichF said:

Wheeler can be a bit annoying sometimes.  He's definitely good but I think he's also gotten pretty lucky at a few of these places.  A lot of the guys find "spots" that are holding multiple fish.  He just happened to find the one holding really big ones.  I'm sure what he saw on his graphs looked exactly like what Timmy, Shaw, and Brent saw.  It just happened to hold a better class of fish.  I just don't bite when these guys say they knew exactly what to look for to find the biggest fish and win a round.  He didn't have a single fish until the last round...then found a group of 4 to 5 pounders.  It's hard not to think there was a little luck at play.

 

Oh and another thing...why is it that every time these MFL guys catch smallmouth that spit up crawfish, they never change to a tube?!  At least pretend you're "matching the hatch" like you so often like to say!

 

Still the best fishing show on TV though haha.  

Put yourself in the right position enough times, and your bound to hit it at the right time Fishing is a game of tilting chances in your favor as much as possible.

[OCdockskipper]

10 hours ago, RichF said:

Wheeler...He's definitely good but I think he's also gotten pretty lucky at a few of these places.  A lot of the guys find "spots" that are holding multiple fish.  He just happened to find the one holding really big ones...

I recall watching the coverage of the 2011 Classic at the Louisiana Delta, where KVD and about 8 other anglers were fishing in the same area.  As KVD continued to land 5 pounders while those around him landed 3 & 4 pounders, Scott Rook was caught quipping "That guy has a lucky horseshoe stuck up his rear".  Back to back AOY & Classic winner and a competitor claims he is "lucky".

 

Wheeler won the first 2 Elite events he fished, at very different fisheries at different times of the year.  That alone shows he has an ability to find and coax larger fish to bite than his competitors.  If that is luck, then he should play the lottery.

[RichF]

I have to agree with Rook there.  I'm definitely not saying KVD can attribute all of his dominance to luck, but that particular event...yeah I'd say luck had something to do with it.  There were tons of other anglers in Cataouche, fishing the same exact cover, with the same exact baits.  If I recall correctly, Martens was fishing d**n near next to him.  KVD had a couple magic stumps that for some reason attracted more 5's than the stumps 30 yards away.  Now obviously, his skill with casting, hitting the right angles, repeated bait placement, fish landing ability, etc. helped tremendously but I highly doubt he KNEW FOR A FACT that those couple stumps were going to attract more of the 5's rather than just 3's and 4's like the ones nearby, when he found them in practice.  

 

Wheeler can catch them for sure.  I'm not denying that. But he got lucky this last event.  I would even argue that his win on Eufala last year was pretty lucky.  Most of the guys were fishing in that same area but he happened to hit the exact spot where a giant school was actively feeding in the morning and loaded the boat quickly.  He did very little damage in the last 2 periods while guys like Faircloth and Shryock were catching them (and their fish weren't schooling).  

 

I'm not saying it's just Wheeler.  Anytime a MLF'er stumbles across a massive school (Martens at Pokegama, KVD at Lacrosse come to mind) it's pretty much luck.  They didn't find those fish during practice, obviously (since there's no practice), they just happened to bump into them.  I'm just super skeptical when these anglers hit a school of fish like that and claim afterward that they knew they would be there...c'mon.  How many times do the guys say "ooo that spot's got'em" or "I'll check that later cuz they'll definitely be loaded up there in the afternoon," then strike out?  The answer is: way more often than them saying that and actually having a giant school of 4 to 6 pounders be there.

[A-Jay]

44 minutes ago, RichF said:

 

I'm not saying it's just Wheeler.  Anytime a MLF'er stumbles across a massive school (Martens at Pokegama, KVD at Lacrosse come to mind) it's pretty much luck.  They didn't find those fish during practice, obviously (since there's no practice), they just happened to bump into them.  I'm just super skeptical when these anglers hit a school of fish like that and claim afterward that they knew they would be there...c'mon.  How many times do the guys say "ooo that spot's got'em" or "I'll check that later cuz they'll definitely be loaded up there in the afternoon," then strike out?  The answer is: way more often than them saying that and actually having a giant school of 4 to 6 pounders be there.

I could not disagree more.

Where 'luck' does play a role, I'm very willing to credit experience, skill, instinct & intuition with 95% of their success and consider luck to contribute about 5%. 

Seems much of life works the same way. 

A-Jay

[RichF]

44 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

I could not disagree more.

Where 'luck' does play a role, I'm very willing to credit experience, skill, instinct & intuition with 95% of their success and consider luck to contribute about 5%. 

Seems much of life works the same way. 

A-Jay

I totally agree that consistency is 100% NOT luck.  I just think that major blowouts are strongly influenced by it.  

[1simplemann]

What's with the fishing landing penalties not being called? I just watched the sudden death round at Winyah Lake. 2 out 3 time's Bobby Lane clearly trapped fish against his body and didn't get called. There were other times where fish were slung in the boat and their tails dragged the deck. It wasn't obvious but that what it looked like when I rewound the DVR.  Another time that was clear was when a fish tail was dragged across a cooler. I don't recall the angler's on those FLV's but in the case of Lane it was totally clear twice. 4 minutes of penalties not called. It affected the the outcome because Strader caught his 2-3 minutes after Lane did. Did anyone else see these?

[riverbasser]

Haven't watched the whole episode yet but I did see Shaw Grigsby have a tail touch the floor and he mentioned to the official he did it and his response was it was "incidental". Maybe they are trying to cut down on penalties other than actually dropping fish on the carpet and them flopping around?

[OCdockskipper]

5 hours ago, riverbasser said:

...Haven't watched the whole episode yet but I did see Shaw Grigsby have a tail touch the floor and he mentioned to the official he did it and his response was it was "incidental"...?

 You are correct.  It appears among the rule changes for this year is a more liberal approach to what a fish landing penalty is.  It seems to better fit the reason for the penalty, which is to try to lessen fish mortality by having them lose their slime coat while flopping around on the carpet.  As much as I like the protecting the fish, I do like the change of not nitpicking incidental contact.

 

Another non-call that I agree with was on a fish release by Bobby Lane.  He was in some heavy vegetation and as he was about to release the fish, he seemed to notice that the area next to his boat was choked with vegetation.  Had he released the fish right there, it would have flopped around on top of the mat.  So instead, he gently flipped the bass out about 2 feet so that it went headfirst into a hole in the mat.  In doing so, he technically released it above the gunnel of the boat, but no call was made.  Correct judgement in my opinion.

 

BTW, one of the best episodes ever...

[Tracker22]

KVD was ticked. He thought he had it in the bag, until he saw which lake they were fishing.

[A-Jay]

6 minutes ago, Tracker22 said:

KVD was ticked. He thought he had it in the bag, until he saw which lake they were fishing.

Sure was.  He seemed dead set on a horizontal presentation.

The anglers who mixed in (or went all in) on the vertical option got right in a hurry.

Really enjoyed that one.

Also don't know how the rule works for when a "catch" actually counts - is it when it's 'landed' or when it's registered on the score tracker ? Either way that 'grey area' (which might only be in my mind) might need to be ironed out in advance of two catches that could an angler to the next round or even for a cup win.

A-Jay

[1simplemann]

6 hours ago, OCdockskipper said:

 You are correct.  It appears among the rule changes for this year is a more liberal approach to what a fish landing penalty is.  It seems to better fit the reason for the penalty, which is to try to lessen fish mortality by having them lose their slime coat while flopping around on the carpet.  As much as I like the protecting the fish, I do like the change of not nitpicking incidental contact.

 

Another non-call that I agree with was on a fish release by Bobby Lane.  He was in some heavy vegetation and as he was about to release the fish, he seemed to notice that the area next to his boat was choked with vegetation.  Had he released the fish right there, it would have flopped around on top of the mat.  So instead, he gently flipped the bass out about 2 feet so that it went headfirst into a hole in the mat.  In doing so, he technically released it above the gunnel of the boat, but no call was made.  Correct judgement in my opinion.

 

BTW, one of the best episodes ever...

Incidental contact I get. Makes sense. 3 times BL trapped fish against his body blatently.All pretty much identical offenses.  Nothing incidental about them. 2 no calls and 1 penalty. Not sure why the inconsistancy.

[New River Addiction]

I like BL but I agree that those penalties not being called against him like they should have been cost Strader his spot at the championship. I fully understand when Grisby had landed one and it's tail touched the deck that they said it was incidental, he wasn't trying to hide it he was the one who called it out. I

[OCdockskipper]

3 hours ago, 1simplemann said:

...3 times BL trapped fish against his body blatently.All pretty much identical offenses...2 no calls and 1 penalty. Not sure why the inconsistancy.

You are correct, I saw that as well.  On the last one, they cut away quickly, so if there was a penalty, we never saw it called.  I wonder if it had anything to do with the rain, i.e., that pinning a fish against slick & wet rain gear is allowed.  Other than that, I'm not sure what it could be.

 

There was also an editing error following an AMart catch.  They showed the Scoretracker and Biffle was now ahead of him at 19 plus lbs.  They didn't show Biffle for about a minute & then cut to him catching 2 out of a laydown to get to that 19lb weight.  The way the show was edited, you got the feeling that AMart was going to qualify and Biffle wasn't.

[Team9nine]

4 hours ago, A-Jay said:

 

Also don't know how the rule works for when a "catch" actually counts - is it when it's 'landed' or when it's registered on the score tracker ? Either way that 'grey area' (which might only be in my mind) might need to be ironed out in advance of two catches that could an angler to the next round or even for a cup win.

A-Jay

Officials start counting down the seconds as a period ends. If you have a fish hooked, it must make it inside the gunnel of the boat before the official calls "lines out." If it makes it in, they weigh it and score it. If it doesn't cross that line in time, they just have to release the fish and it's not scored. You can still get a landing violation at this time which would carry over to the start of the next period (if there was one).

[A-Jay]

58 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

Officials start counting down the seconds as a period ends. If you have a fish hooked, it must make it inside the gunnel of the boat before the official calls "lines out." If it makes it in, they weigh it and score it. If it doesn't cross that line in time, they just have to release the fish and it's not scored. You can still get a landing violation at this time which would carry over to the start of the next period (if there was one).

Got that part - 

My concern revolved around tilts where a cut weigh was in effect and the timing of two separate catches.

So the judges utilize the time the fish first is over the rail as time "caught" rather than the time it's added to the score tracker. 

 

A-Jay

[riverbasser]

9 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

Got that part - 

My concern revolved around tilts where a cut weigh was in effect and the timing of two separate catches.

So the judges utilize the time the fish first is over the rail as time "caught" rather than the time it's added to the score tracker. 

 

A-Jay

I believe that is the case if that happened they would look at the time of the catch (fish in boat) vs when it was scored. Seems like it was mentioned on an episode awhile back but don't quote me on that

[OCdockskipper]

2 hours ago, riverbasser said:

...they would look at the time of the catch (fish in boat)...Seems like it was mentioned on an episode awhile back...

There was an episode where Aaron Martens & Greg Hackney both landed a fish to go out 1 & 2 in a sudden death round.  They used the clock and determined that AMart landed his fish some minor amount of time ahead of Hackney, like .8 of a second.  How they determined that, I don't know; maybe the cameras have clocks on them that can confirm the exact time of a landing.

[Team9nine]

Haven't seen all the episodes, but the official rules do not list any criteria or restrictions as to multiple last minute catches. It seems if two anglers were to land a last second catch that cleared the gunnel, both would be weighed and scored appropriately, and that final weight for each would determine if there was a case where someone moved on or not over the other angler. It also states that the in-boat official makes all final calls in this case, meaning there would be no way for one official to judge whether his anglers fish came in before or after another in a different boat. Guessing in the Horton-Martens example, what they showed might simply have been editing and post tourney commentary, and the tie breaker rules would have been the determiner, if needed. 

 

Quote

 

18. END-OF-PERIOD SCORING

• The MLF SCORETRACKER© Scoring System Device will serve as the “Official Clock.”.
• At the ends of periods, the MLF Angler will be clearly notified by the MLF Boat Official when the period competition is coming to an end and when MLF Angler must stop Fishing. The only deviation to the scheduled ends of periods will be if all MLF Anglers receives extra minutes because of OFFICIAL MECHANICAL TIME OUT by the MLF Commissioner.
• Regarding the final cast of any period, any Bass hooked on the final cast must be “inside the boat,” visibly inside the gunnel before the time expires.
• The legality or illegality of a period-end catch will be determined by the MLF Boat Official.

 

 

 

There are tie-breaker rules for all situations in regards to who would "win" in case of a weight tie. I would assume this would apply in cases where any last cast catches allowed an angler to tie another for a position where only one could move on.

 

Quote

 

8. TIE-BREAKER RULES FOR MLF CUP EVENTS SINGLE DAY

CHAMPIONSHIP ROUND

• If two (or more) MLF Cup Anglers are tied at the end of the Championship Round – meaning they have caught the same on-the-record weight during that round – the following tie-breaking rules will be employed.
• TIE-BREAKER NO. 1: The total accumulative number of scorable bass caught during the Championship Round.
• TIE-BREAKER NO. 2: The largest single bass (highest weight) caught during the Championship Round.
• The 2nd largest single bass caught during the round and so on.

NON-CHAMPIONSHIP ROUND

• If two (or more) MLF Cup Anglers are tied for a finishing position that determines whether that MLF Cup Angler will advance to the next competitive round– meaning they have caught the same on-the-record weight during that round – the following tie-breaking rules will be employed.
• The total accumulative number of scorable bass caught during the round.
• TIE-BREAKER NO. 2 : The largest single bass caught during the round.
• TIE-BREAKER NO. 3: The 2nd largest single bass caught during the round and so on.

 

 

 

Here is the official rule on landing bass and "touching." They clearly state that "slight touches" against the body are not a penalty, and that using forearms and hands to secure a fish is allowed. They make it sound like any carpet touching might be a violation though, but it has to be witnessed to be called, so I'm sure it is totally possible for an angler to occasionally "sneak one by" and avoid a penalty as you can't always get the exact line or position you'd need to make the call. I don't believe there's any "instant replay" available on the water.

 

Quote

LANDING BASS: While landing Bass, the Bass cannot touch the carpet or any other part of the boat inside the gunnel at any time during the process. If the Bass comes unhooked from the bait and falls to the carpet or hits any other part of the inside of the boat it will be assessed as a violation. 
Additionally, MLF Angler is not allowed to cradle Bass or allow Bass that he is landing to touch his body. An MLF Angler cannot allow a Bass to touch any part of his body other than his hands or forearms. A slight touch will not be penalized. If the MLF Cup Angler brings the Bass to the body deliberately to secure control of the Bass or the Bass hits the MLF Cup Angler more than slightly, then it will be a penalty. From a rules standpoint, the body is to be treated the same as the carpet.
(Penalty – Official: Bass Landing violation, 2 Minutes immediate, stop Fishing)

 

[1simplemann]

Team9nine, Thanks for the rules description.  The slight touches are now explained. On the other hand, BL clearly trapped the fish against his body to gain control. 3 times! He was called on it once. He's a veteran MLF competitor. He know the rules and so should the boat official. 4 minutes of penalties not called. If I was Strader when I look back at the footage, I would be ticked off. Strader should be in and BL out.

[New River Addiction]

I agree with 1simplemann 100%. Big difference between an accidental touch and completely pinning the fish against him... which was what clearly happened. Strader is now out because the referee didn't call two obvious penalties. Sorry guys just had to vent.... Strader is my favorite on MLF because winning or losing he always has fun and with a good attitude unlike several on there.

[12poundbass]

I finally finished watching last weeks episode last night so I've finally read the recent post (didn't want any spoilers) and I'm ready to comment. 

 

1. That was a great episode and the more I watch Wheeler the more I like that guy and I think he could very well be the face of professional bass fishing in the future.

2. @A-Jay that lake blew my mind! There seems to be quite a few pigs in that lake. Holy cow most of the guys had 4.5 lb big fish. For you guys not from Michigan that's rare to have that many large green bass up here. Phenomenal lake.

3. I watched All Angles afterwards and KVD was extremely ticked and kind of threw a tantrum and threw a shot at MLF for not going to a smallmouth lake. That wasn't a good look. Still like the guy but...

4. I don't follow FLW really so Strader is virtually unknown to me, but he seems a cool guys always having fun. He also appears to be an angler not to take lightly. 

 

There are times where MLF can get a little monotonous, but this episode was great and kept you on the edge of your seat. 

 

I didn't see a Pro V Bass flying around the lake and video bombing all the anglers. That was the only let down of the episode. ?

[A-Jay]

14 minutes ago, 12poundbass said:

I finally finished watching last weeks episode last night so I've finally read the recent post (didn't want any spoilers) and I'm ready to comment. 

 

1. That was a great episode and the more I watch Wheeler the more I like that guy and I think he could very well be the face of professional bass fishing in the future.

2. @A-Jay that lake blew my mind! There seems to be quite a few pigs in that lake. Holy cow most of the guys had 4.5 lb big fish. For you guys not from Michigan that's rare to have that many large green bass up here. Phenomenal lake.

3. I watched All Angles afterwards and KVD was extremely ticked and kind of threw a tantrum and threw a shot at MLF for not going to a smallmouth lake. That wasn't a good look. Still like the guy but...

4. I don't follow FLW really so Strader is virtually unknown to me, but he seems a cool guys always having fun. He also appears to be an angler not to take lightly. 

 

There are times where MLF can get a little monotonous, but this episode was great and kept you on the edge of your seat. 

 

I didn't see a Pro V Bass flying around the lake and video bombing all the anglers. That was the only let down of the episode. ?

Yup - Big Green bass - especially up that way, are not common.  Something to keep in mind is that with so much productive water close by (including The Darn GREAT LAKES) the few bassheads that do target greenies are fairly spread out.  All of that is a good thing in my world.  

 

Didn't see the KVD 'tantrum' - doesn't sound like his usual demeanor.  Somethings up.  Still glad I missed it. 

 

 Finally as for the Pro-V Bass, I run that T-H Marine Cloaking Device pretty regular. 

Usually clicking along on like 7 or 8. 

I'm not afraid to even mash that button down to a 10 when the bites on good. 

So that might es-plain it.

A-Jay

 

[12poundbass]

10 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

Yup - Big Green bass - especially up that way, are not common.  Something to keep in mind is that with so much productive water close by (including The Darn GREAT LAKES) the few bassheads that do target greenies are fairly spread out.  All of that is a good thing in my world.  

 

Didn't see the KVD 'tantrum' - doesn't sound like his usual demeanor.  Somethings up.  Still glad I missed it. 

 

 Finally as for the Pro-V Bass, I run that T-H Marine Cloaking Device pretty regular. 

Usually clicking along on like 7 or 8. 

I'm not afraid to even mash that button down to a 10 when the bites on good. 

So that might es-plain it.

A-Jay

 

That cloaking device sounds pretty cool. Must've been a one of a kind type of deal? 

[A-Jay]

8 minutes ago, 12poundbass said:

That cloaking device sounds pretty cool. Must've been a one of a kind type of deal? 

May or may not have come via The Darknet ~

A-Jay

 

[12poundbass]

3 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

May or may not have come via The Darknet ~

A-Jay

 

I won't ask anymore questions....I don't want to cross that threshold. I cherish my life! ?