Catch 22 Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 A local pond with homes around most but not all of the water has been a real good producer over the years. I go there twice a year at most, always during the winter. Total c & r . There was one other boat on the water with me one time in ten years . Someone posted the pond just off shore in the water as no trespassing private property==probably the HOA Here is the way I understand the law. If I enter the water from a state property highway easement zone, never touch any private shorelines or docks, then I am totally legal to be there. The water is public domain. Water flows into it from another pond a few miles away, then drains into a pond down stream. I plan to fish there soon, after I visit the county seat to get property boundaries.. I`m not looking for a fight but want to be prepared for a confrontation. The reason I`m nervous is because I lost entry privileges to three different spots just last year. Same situation, just no decent access. I don`t blame owners for closing down because of the way people treat places they don`t own or maintain, and /or liability Does anyone have any experience with a situation like this. Thanks C22 1 Quote
Super User scaleface Posted January 17, 2017 Super User Posted January 17, 2017 I had verbal confrontations that almost turned into a fist fight twice with people fishing our private neighborhood lake . I dont know the law . Some of the lake bordered an interstate and part a city street . These people would come in and trash the place up . I walked to the lake every day to pick up their trash . Ive seen females sun bathing in a yard while their scumbag boyfriends fished . I saw a car park in the same yard and get stuck . Once there was a car with out of state plates there . The lake is posted now but that doesnt do any good . People run around like they own the place . I dont know what its like in your case but I speculate some people have had enough . 2 Quote
Super User J Francho Posted January 17, 2017 Super User Posted January 17, 2017 Get what ever permissions you need documented, and prepare to produce that to any law enforcement that I'm sure you will encounter. 2 Quote
"hamma" Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 Id be pro-active about this if I were you, follow J Francos advise above, and go even a step further to protect yourself. If HOA means a lake association, or water board. Attend their meetings, speak up when need be, make sure that you are covered for incounters. Instead of waiting for one to happen, be pro-active and insure your in the right before the powers that be decide otherwise 1 Quote
Super User the reel ess Posted January 17, 2017 Super User Posted January 17, 2017 I'm in SC. My niece and her hubby live in a place like that where there are landowners everywhere except one corner where it's right beside the road. People have a right to fish from the road corner (which they do and they leave trash that homeowners clean up) and that's all. If they're caught on the water or any of the other people's property, cops are called, they're notified they're trespassing and the next time it's a fine (trespassing with notice) The third time, it's a punishable by imprisonment. People who don't live there and don't pay fees to keep the pond up or help pay additional insurance have no rights to the water that's landlocked. The reason being, those people who owned the land at the bottom of the pond before it was a pond still own it. Ask a landowner for permission to fish, then you'll be all set even if you come in from the road. Just be sure all your ducks are in a row. Don't assume anything. 3 Quote
Super User J Francho Posted January 17, 2017 Super User Posted January 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, the reel ess said: The reason being, those people who owned the land at the bottom of the pond before it was a pond still own it. This is not a universal thing. It can vary from state to state, town to town, county to county, parcel to parcel. Like you said - GET PERMISSION. And carry proof of it. 2 Quote
Super User the reel ess Posted January 17, 2017 Super User Posted January 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, J Francho said: This is not a universal thing. It can vary from state to state, town to town, county to county, parcel to parcel. Like you said - GET PERMISSION. And carry proof of it. Absolutely. I fish a place that is landlocked and it's a public water supply. the landowners own all the rights except to take the water. Quote
Super User J Francho Posted January 17, 2017 Super User Posted January 17, 2017 There have been decade long legal battles over water rights. Personally, I see a trend of shoreline landowners over-stepping their bounds on public water, but that is a political post for another forum.... 2 Quote
Super User the reel ess Posted January 18, 2017 Super User Posted January 18, 2017 7 hours ago, J Francho said: There have been decade long legal battles over water rights. Personally, I see a trend of shoreline landowners over-stepping their bounds on public water, but that is a political post for another forum.... I kayak and have taken it down a creek and some rivers. In SC, if you can get down a moving creek by boat, and a kayak is considered a boat, you are not trespassing up to the high water mark. A man about a year ago got tired of people getting out of their kayaks and canoes on "his sandbar" and he shot one. He sits in prison now because he was ignorant of the law, plus he shot an unarmed man. A stupid waste of life. But on the other hand, when I go down a river or creek, I see tons of trash people carelessly leave behind because they don't own the property. Water gets high and it ends up on people's property. It's wrong for property owners to have to clean up after others. Quote
KLoell Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Is there a way to look up what is public water and what isn't via a website? Quote
mixel Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 I find this to be a very interesting subject and have been thinking about posting something similar. In California, there are some applicable rules which can be read here: http://www.keepcalmandflyfish.com/2015/07/california-water-law-private-vs-public.html It could get very confusing, very quickly when you start considering things like high tide lines, water levels, the terms navigation, obstruction, land ownership, public easements, federal and individual state laws. Seems like you should really do your homework on this and talk some local knowledgeable experts on the matter. Also an interesting read http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3023&context=californialawreview 1. U.S. constitution grants "Freedom of navigation and the public’s right to use rivers are guaranteed by the Commerce Clause. The congressional Act admitting States to the Union requires that 'all the navigable waters within said State shall be common highways and forever free.'"2. California State Constitution, Article 10, Section 4 - Forbids individual, joint and corporate landowners from obstructing free navigation... 2 hours ago, KLoell said: Is there a way to look up what is public water and what isn't via a website? Maybe contact these guys http://dnr.maryland.gov/boating/Pages/water-access/boatramps.aspx Quote
Jagg Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Not uncommon to be fishing a navigable river or creek in TX and come across wire fence that cuts from one side of the bank to the other. We'd call the Wardens and they would inform the land owners. Sometimes a flood would take em down before the landowners would. 1 Quote
Super User Sam Posted January 18, 2017 Super User Posted January 18, 2017 14 hours ago, J Francho said: Get what ever permissions you need documented, and prepare to produce that to any law enforcement that I'm sure you will encounter. Yes. J is totally correct. Have a letter from the HOA or owner giving you permission to fish the waters. I also suggest contacting a knowledgeable person at both the Maryland and Delaware game departments and ask them for their input. I remember the legal battles over the question of public domain waters in Louisiana when the Mississippi River floods. I don't recall the legal outcome but anyone down in the Sportsman's Paradise who knows the outcome please post it for us. Quote
Global Moderator 12poundbass Posted January 18, 2017 Global Moderator Posted January 18, 2017 20 hours ago, Catch 22 said: A local pond with homes around most but not all of the water has been a real good producer over the years. I go there twice a year at most, always during the winter. Total c & r . There was one other boat on the water with me one time in ten years . Someone posted the pond just off shore in the water as no trespassing private property==probably the HOA Here is the way I understand the law. If I enter the water from a state property highway easement zone, never touch any private shorelines or docks, then I am totally legal to be there. The water is public domain. Water flows into it from another pond a few miles away, then drains into a pond down stream. I plan to fish there soon, after I visit the county seat to get property boundaries.. I`m not looking for a fight but want to be prepared for a confrontation. The reason I`m nervous is because I lost entry privileges to three different spots just last year. Same situation, just no decent access. I don`t blame owners for closing down because of the way people treat places they don`t own or maintain, and /or liability Does anyone have any experience with a situation like this. Thanks C22 I believe you're right on your understanding with the law. I'd double check with your DNR/conservation/warden officer. If they give you the thumbs up, I would as a show of good faith pick up any trash along your travels of the private pond. People can be crazy when it comes to private waters so be careful. I knew a guy who was legally duck hunting a small private lake with only two home owners. As the morning went on and the ducks were falling the other home owner came out in her boat and proceeded to pick up some recently shot ducks and decoys! Long story short she was charged with theft and possession of water fowl without a license! 1 Quote
Catch 22 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Posted January 18, 2017 Thanks for all the input. As suggested I will do some homework before going there again. I`ll be heading to SCarolina soon so this glitch can wait. C22 Quote
Super User N Florida Mike Posted January 19, 2017 Super User Posted January 19, 2017 In our lake the only way to get in is to tresspass or ask permission . One guy would fish in back of vacant houses off docks.People say hes not hurting anything but he still had to trespass to get to the lake.If he wants to fish there he either needs to buy him a house on the lake or ask permission.Plus he was keeping whatever he caught.One of our board members harassed him enugh until he quit coming. Ive been on both sides of the coin though.I recently got asked to leave a pond that connected to one of our parks.There were houses on the other side ( where I did not go ) and wasnt posted where I came out of the woods.Not long after that a lady came around from the houses and began asking nosey questions and told me it was private property and didnt I see it was posted.The sign was clear across the pond and unreadable from where I was.If it had been where I was,I wouldnt have fished there to start with.I did kind of get an attitude with her but just left.I was there to fish ,not fight.Fishing there stunk anyway. Sorry for the rambling.Do what 2 kids did.They went door to door until they got permission to fish.( In my backyard ! ) 2 Quote
NCbassraider Posted January 20, 2017 Posted January 20, 2017 As a property owner that has a lake on it I deal with trespassers often. The most often excuse is "you can't own a body of water". Yes you can. Most are referring to laws regarding rivers and streams or tidal bodies of water. It doesn't matter if water flows into the pond somewhere. That doesn't count. I am assuming someone owns that body of water (assuming the HOA) and whoever that owner is has the right to post it and keep people off it. This is the way it works in NC and most States, I'm told. 1 Quote
Super User flyfisher Posted January 20, 2017 Super User Posted January 20, 2017 Here in Virginia i do searches on our county GIS mapping websites and i can look at any body of water and determine who owns it, even if it is federal or the state. If it is private it also has the owners information so with a little digging, yo can find he actual owner and speak with them or at least attempt to in order to gain access. I am lucky that I have enough public places nearby that i don't mess with private fisheries anymore as it is more of a pain than it is worth. Quote
Super User the reel ess Posted January 20, 2017 Super User Posted January 20, 2017 On 1/18/2017 at 3:20 AM, Sam said: Yes. J is totally correct. Have a letter from the HOA or owner giving you permission to fish the waters. I also suggest contacting a knowledgeable person at both the Maryland and Delaware game departments and ask them for their input. I remember the legal battles over the question of public domain waters in Louisiana when the Mississippi River floods. I don't recall the legal outcome but anyone down in the Sportsman's Paradise who knows the outcome please post it for us. 12 hours ago, flyfisher said: Here in Virginia i do searches on our county GIS mapping websites and i can look at any body of water and determine who owns it, even if it is federal or the state. If it is private it also has the owners information so with a little digging, yo can find he actual owner and speak with them or at least attempt to in order to gain access. I am lucky that I have enough public places nearby that i don't mess with private fisheries anymore as it is more of a pain than it is worth. I'd like to add to this. in my state, I only need permission and access from one landowner to fish it all as long as you don't get on others' property. I would also stay off others' docks, even if there's a high water level clause. They may not realize it. If there's a card or permit necessary to have in your possession, you'd better get it. Other homeowners and the DNR or police can ask you for it. Here's one I have. On the back is a list of things I agree to respect regarding property and laws and it's signed by me. It can be taken from me by the owner at any time or the DNR if I mess up. Quote
Super User Paul Roberts Posted January 20, 2017 Super User Posted January 20, 2017 Each state is different. Some states the landowner owns the water too. In others it's only the bottom. You'll want to know how your state laws are set up, then get the actual property boundaries and see if they jive with what the landowner is claiming. Good luck. I hope you still have access. The first thing I would do as ... Benevolent Czar ... is give public access to all waters, via right-of-way, all the way around. Then again, when my brother sat me down to play Sim-City years ago I just built parks everywhere. When the populace began to riot and the police complained I built a park over the station. When the hospitals became overcrowded I built a park over that too. I built parks on every acre of land, until I ran out of money on the very last square. It's probably a good thing I'm not "Benevolent Czar". 2 Quote
Super User N Florida Mike Posted January 20, 2017 Super User Posted January 20, 2017 58 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said: Each state is different. Some states the landowner owns the water too. In others it's only the bottom. You'll want to know how your state laws are set up, then get the actual property boundaries and see if they jive with what the landowner is claiming. Good luck. I hope you still have access. The first thing I would do as ... Benevolent Czar ... is give public access to all waters, via right-of-way, all the way around. Then again, when my brother sat me down to play Sim-City years ago I just built parks everywhere. When the populace began to riot and the police complained I built a park over the station. When the hospitals became overcrowded I built a park over that too. I built parks on every acre of land, until I ran out of money on the very last square. It's probably a good thing I'm not "Benevolent Czar". I wouldnt agree with all water access for everyone. I would be for public access for natural lakes ( unless they are small and completely owned by individual owners) and creeks and rivers. I would not be for open access to man made private lakes,if completely owned by individuals. Just think of the chaos if everyone could fish everywhere! That being said,it better be posted or obviously private or Im fishing it. 1 Quote
Super User MassYak85 Posted January 20, 2017 Super User Posted January 20, 2017 The way I understand it, at least in MA, is that if the state uses funds from the license program to maintain or stock the body of water, or there is a way to access the body of water legally (i.e. not trespassing on private property to get to the shore) then you have the right as a citizen to fish it legally (with a license and following state laws). If the body of water is completely surrounded by private property then it's off limits to the public unless a shoreline property owner gives you explicit permission. One of the biggest things I hear about as far as confrontations is land owners thinking they own a part of the water around their dock and yell at people fishing around the dock. I've only had that happen once personally and just left the area, but if an EPO has to be called to resolve it, the fisherman usually gets the nod of approval in those situations. Quote
Super User .ghoti. Posted January 20, 2017 Super User Posted January 20, 2017 On the lake where my cabin is located, the first 25' of bank from the high water mark is public property, and anybody has the right to be on it at any time. That being said, I almost never see anybody bank fishing. And, since there is no ramp, there are almost no boats on the water. Ive seen a guy and his wife in their boat twice. A guy in a little two man once, my neighbor ladies once, and two guys in a paddle boat once. That's it in three years. the only guy Ive seen bank fishing is a guy who asked me for permission to fish from my dock. He has been out a few times, and never leaves a mess. the bass and crappie in this lake are very easy to catch. 1 Quote
Chowderhead Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 Quote On the lake where my cabin is located, the first 25' of bank from the high water mark is public property, and anybody has the right to be on it at any time. That being said, I almost never see anybody bank fishing. And, since there is no ramp, there are almost no boats on the water. Ive seen a guy and his wife in their boat twice. A guy in a little two man once, my neighbor ladies once, and two guys in a paddle boat once. That's it in three years. the only guy Ive seen bank fishing is a guy who asked me for permission to fish from my dock. He has been out a few times, and never leaves a mess. the bass and crappie in this lake are very easy to catch. I will be right over... 3 Quote
Super User iceintheveins Posted January 21, 2017 Super User Posted January 21, 2017 Navigable rivers (rivers that can float craft) are public domain below the high water mark, including stream bottoms and land below said high water mark, under federal law. However my state does not follow federal law, and allows landowners to think they own the river bottom and bank below a high water mark and call those who fish there "trespassers" even though under federal law it is public, so it's false trespass. The state law is null and void in this case, but Colorado doesn't enforce this. Some states don't obey the law. I've told several land owners to screw off but I don't tempt fate because of the corruption in my state allowing landowners to break the law. 1 Quote
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