Structure By Catt

[slonezp]

6 hours ago, Catt said:

 

Because pictures can be deceiving those two humps are quite some distance apart. With down/side imaging I don't think you could get them in a single image. 

 

When these humps are under 4-6' of water the top of the flat 10-12' deep, the creek channel drops to 18-20'. 

 

On most maps/imaging the flat shows up but not the humps, I found them almost by accident, the first time ever in that area the water was 1' above the humps.

 

 

There's a guy in Wisconsin who has started mapping local musky lakes based off side and down imaging returns. He offers a subscription product for your computer and mobile devices. It's based off the online maps and defaults to Bing Maps. His information allows you to layer bottom structure based on bottom composition, rock outcroppings, weeds and the "hump on a hump", has fish cribs and all the underwater timber mapped in the lake, GPS coordinates, the ability to determine how large the structure is etc. The ability to print the maps as well. Neat stuff. 2 problems, He currently only has 10 lakes completed and secondly, if no cell service is available the product doesn't work (and where these lakes are located, the service is limited at best)

As far as I know, all the current offerings are based on 2d returns. The potential of this guys product is huge.

[RoLo]

1 hour ago, slonezp said:

There's a guy in Wisconsin who has started mapping local musky lakes based off side and down imaging returns. He offers a subscription product for your computer and mobile devices. It's based off the online maps and defaults to Bing Maps. His information allows you to layer bottom structure based on bottom composition, rock outcroppings, weeds and the "hump on a hump", has fish cribs and all the underwater timber mapped in the lake, GPS coordinates, the ability to determine how large the structure is etc. The ability to print the maps as well. Neat stuff. 2 problems, He currently only has 10 lakes completed and secondly, if no cell service is available the product doesn't work (and where these lakes are located, the service is limited at best)

As far as I know, all the current offerings are based on 2d returns. The potential of this guys product is huge.

 

Unless you create your own charts (which I do, but it takes forever), that's definitely the wave of the future.

'Community Edits' sponsored by Navionics is on the same page. It's Navionics way of improving chart accuracy

without investing in cartographers. On the upside though, all Navionics users benefit

from the edits without charge.

 

Even though I update my Navionics Plus SD card before every outing, I rarely notice a meaningful improvement,

even on popular waters like Lake Kissimmee. That would be okay if their charts were beyond reproach,

but chart accuracy in many areas is laughable. I'm confident though that we're on the cusp

of rapid improvement (I hope).

 

Roger

 

[WRB]

Way off topic, Navionics has an app that works with wifi electronics to make real time mapping.

Tom

[reerok]

Is there a more valuable discussion anywhere?  I'd be happy to ever find one.  Thanks Catt and all the contributors.

 

Another slightly OT thought:  I enjoy watching MLF given its long form model and watching a small group of pros plan, approach, adapt, adjust, and panic.  Having recently read BP's "Spoonplugging" and Murphy's "In Pursuit..." it's given me a new perspective as I watch the show.  The thing is - what I'm seeing is somewhat troubling.  These guys will talk about structure very VERY briefly and almost always first thing in the morning.  They'll find what they believe to be a good deep point or bridge piling or something else and start there.  But almost invariably they all end up target fishing a bank or docks/marina.  Now my (mis)perception could easily be due to the slick editing of the show and them cutting the bits about the guys stating why they are fishing the shallow cover that they choose, but if I didn't know any better (which I didn't until I read the above books and posts here on this site) I would assume that to be a successful professional fisherman all I have to do is flip, crank, or whopper plopper a shoreline.  I emphatically know that not to be true.

 

So my question is:  Are these pros really just haphazardly beating the banks of lakes they're dropped on or are they putting to use all of the knowledge that is being shared here in this thread and only focusing on shallow cover that is associated with the breaks, breaklines, and deep water BP and Murphy and Catt and others talk about?

 

Thanks again.

[Catt]

When the subject of structure fishing comes up many people incorrectly assume we are referring to deep water fishing this is partially untrue. It doesn't matter if you are fishing bank shallow or 40' deep your are fishing structure, that is if you are catching fish.

 

There are tournaments won on shoreline structure & there are tournaments won on offshore structure.

[Paul Roberts]

Some thoughts:

 

I suppose it depends on the water body. But also, BP, and BM (Murphy) were not tournament anglers. BP was a troller (for the most part) and BM was a big fish only guy and fishing deep CA waters.

 

MLF scores the most scorable bass. A bunch of little ones can be tough to beat.

 

As Catt mentions, certainly the anglers are aware of structural elements. The difference between many weekend Joe's and the pros is that the Joe's are more likely to fish shoreline objects without relation to larger structural elements. Pros are apt to consider larger scale structural elements at the get-go. They then fish the shallow objects. If fish are shallow, it's often quicker to catch them than deeper.

 

I do remember one MLF in which Shaw Grigsby went deep to drop-shot a bunch of smallies in very clear water. I was impressed by how easily he shifted back and forth from shallow to deep options.

[riverbasser]

12 minutes ago, reerok said:

Is there a more valuable discussion anywhere?  I'd be happy to ever find one.  Thanks Catt and all the contributors.

 

Another slightly OT thought:  I enjoy watching MLF given its long form model and watching a small group of pros plan, approach, adapt, adjust, and panic.  Having recently read BP's "Spoonplugging" and Murphy's "In Pursuit..." it's given me a new perspective as I watch the show.  The thing is - what I'm seeing is somewhat troubling.  These guys will talk about structure very VERY briefly and almost always first thing in the morning.  They'll find what they believe to be a good deep point or bridge piling or something else and start there.  But almost invariably they all end up target fishing a bank or docks/marina.  Now my (mis)perception could easily be due to the slick editing of the show and them cutting the bits about the guys stating why they are fishing the shallow cover that they choose, but if I didn't know any better (which I didn't until I read the above books and posts here on this site) I would assume that to be a successful professional fisherman all I have to do is flip, crank, or whopper plopper a shoreline.  I emphatically know that not to be true.

 

So my question is:  Are these pros really just haphazardly beating the banks of lakes they're dropped on or are they putting to use all of the knowledge that is being shared here in this thread and only focusing on shallow cover that is associated with the breaks, breaklines, and deep water BP and Murphy and Catt and others talk about?

 

Thanks again.

I'm also a fan of MLF. If you have the ability to pause live TV, do so when they show the lake map and where all the anglers are. Now its way zoomed out but it does have contour lines. If you look at it, even from a broad view you can tell they are fishing structure. They also study the lake maps just before launch and then have to quickly decide and evaluate the structure and cover situations on there 15 min ride around.

 

Its not a good show to try to copy because as you said everything is rushed and there is a lot of stuff not shown. The pros are also probably a little too stressed to explain things how we might like them too 

[reerok]

15 minutes ago, Catt said:

When the subject of structure fishing comes up many people incorrectly assume we are referring to deep water fishing this is partially untrue. It doesn't matter if you are fishing bank shallow or 40' deep your are fishing structure, that is if you are catching fish.

 

There are tournaments won on shoreline structure & there are tournaments won on offshore structure.

I apologize if you understood me to imply that these pros should be fishing only deep (8-10+) water (as if that's only where the structure lies).  I know that isn't the case.  

 

What I meant was this:  Are they fishing the shallow shoreline BECAUSE it's associated with the type of structure needed to hold bass (including access to "deeper" water) or are they just randomly fishing banks as it can sometimes appear on TV?

 

As was answered, these guys know what they're doing and know what structural elements lead them to successful target fishing.  We just don't get to see them explain that.  I sure wish we did.

 

Thanks!

10 minutes ago, riverbasser said:

I'm also a fan of MLF. If you have the ability to pause live TV, do so when they show the lake map and where all the anglers are. Now its way zoomed out but it does have contour lines. If you look at it, even from a broad view you can tell they are fishing structure. They also study the lake maps just before launch and then have to quickly decide and evaluate the structure and cover situations on there 15 min ride around.

 

Its not a good show to try to copy because as you said everything is rushed and there is a lot of stuff not shown. The pros are also probably a little too stressed to explain things how we might like them too 

That's a good idea on pausing the TV when they show the map.  I haven't tried that.  It seems like this new season is showing less of the map than they used to but I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

I feel like sometimes you see the last place guys spin out and look like I can on a tough day:  lost, confused, and totally unsure what to try next.  But the top guys seem to always have something in mind, a plan b, c, d, etc.  I wish we could hear them think and explain why the go where they go and fish how they fish.  

[riverbasser]

17 minutes ago, reerok said:

I apologize if you understood me to imply that these pros should be fishing only deep (8-10+) water (as if that's only where the structure lies).  I know that isn't the case.  

 

What I meant was this:  Are they fishing the shallow shoreline BECAUSE it's associated with the type of structure needed to hold bass (including access to "deeper" water) or are they just randomly fishing banks as it can sometimes appear on TV?

 

As was answered, these guys know what they're doing and know what structural elements lead them to successful target fishing.  We just don't get to see them explain that.  I sure wish we did.

 

Thanks!

That's a good idea on pausing the TV when they show the map.  I haven't tried that.  It seems like this new season is showing less of the map than they used to but I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

I feel like sometimes you see the last place guys spin out and look like I can on a tough day:  lost, confused, and totally unsure what to try next.  But the top guys seem to always have something in mind, a plan b, c, d, etc.  I wish we could hear them think and explain why the go where they go and fish how they fish.  

Idk if you saw it or not but just before Christmas they had a "winning ways" episode that showed how 6 of the top finishers won their round. They showed the technique, bait and pattern on a similar lake. It was interesting to watch 

[Catt]

I promise you they aint "randomly" fishing anything!

[RoLo]

1 hour ago, reerok said:

 

What I meant was this:  Are they fishing the shallow shoreline BECAUSE it's associated with the type of structure needed to hold bass (including access to "deeper" water) or are they just randomly fishing banks as it can sometimes appear on TV?

 

 

Depending on the lake classification and seasonal period, the shoreline is often the high-percentage area.

Actually, the presence or absence of structure is unrelated to the angler’s distance from shore.

Furthermore, you can fish surgically along the shoreline, and you can fish randomly offshore.

Roger

 

 

 

 

[WRB]

MLF formate is geared for catching numbers of keeper size bass because the quantity of bass is unlimited, time is the key factor. The MLF anglers don't have advanced notice to where they are going to be fishing therefore can't study the lake or lake zone before launching and only get 15 minutes to study thier GPS and make a quick run to whatever area interest them to determine a starting point based on past experiences, aquatic weeds, docks, water temps and color to confirm what they see on the sonar unit. If the contestant is unfamiliar with the lake they may not know what type of bass to target.

Structure is the 1st thing they look at on the map, then they try to determine what depth to start at based on breaks located at high % spots that support their primary skill set.

Structure, breaks, cover types and seasonal periods are factored in the 1st 15 minutes and then adjustments made as they fish by eliminating unproductive water quickly.

Everything Catt has talked about is being considered by the MLF pro... under a lot of pressure to catch bass quickly.

We can take our time, study maps, know where we are going to fish and what type of bass we plan to catch on tackle put together before we launch and go fishing. Lesson learned with MLF is be versitile and make adjustments quickly if you want to catch numbers of bass.

Tom

 

[J Francho]

11 minutes ago, RoLo said:

Furthermore, you can fish surgically along the shoreline, and you can fish randomly offshore.

 

This is an interesting point.  In order for me to get my pea brain around offshore bass holding structure, especially on Lake Ontario, where it seems like there is none.  I literally treat one the 15' to 30' depth contour as shoreline, ignoring what's shallower.  Just pick a depth, and make it your new shoreline.  It helps if you have an idea about how deep fish are that time of year.  20/25/30 seem to be right.   This helps me target fish holding structures in the key 35-45' zone better.

[WRB]

Over 90% of my bass fishing is in deep rocky structured lakes, everyone of those lakes has a shoreline, all lakes do! Can I catch bass in 1' to 3' of water along the shoreline, yes! I also catch bass in 30' to 40' along the shoreline or off shore or anywhere inbetween. Because our deep structure lakes fluctuate in depth month to month or year to year both the shoreline and outside structure is constantly changing, it can be 30' underwater or 30' above water, but the bass are always at their preferred depth! My 1st concern is how deep are the bass located, then I determine where to start fishing based on all the factors I can gather up like water temps and color, preferred bait type and seasonal periods. Bass fishing is always a guessing game where to start fishing and with what may work, it's what makes our sport fun.

Tom

[roadwarrior]

On the Tennessee River current trumps everything. Next is depth. Although you will often find bass scattered shallow, for the most part ALL the fish are at a certain depth (range) on any given day. For whatever reason the two most common depths are ~8' or ~19'. Go figure...

 

 

[TnRiver46]

22 minutes ago, roadwarrior said:

On the Tennessee River current trumps everything. Next is depth. Although you will often find bass scattered shallow, for the most part ALL the fish are at a certain depth (range) on any given day. For whatever reason the two most common depths are ~8' or ~19'. Go figure...

 

 

19' is my favorite!!!! Funny you would say that 

[Catt]

Structure starts at the shoreline & ends at the bottom of the deepest water!

 

What appears to be random...aint

[bagofdonuts]

That's interesting. There's a similar trend here on the arkansas river. Bass that are relating to current(i.e. not spawning in the backwaters) will be at 5' or 12'. My theory is that depth also creates a current break, water in the middle of the water column is moving the fastest and there are breaks in the current speed at those depths.

[J Francho]

Structure underneath current creates current breaks.  Anyone that has spent time stream fishing for trout will have learned to "read" the water.  What the water does on the surface gives you clues to what's below the surface.  For instance, a deep ledge -  a major fish holding feature, regardless of species, can be traced in current by seeing the seam created at the surface.  Again, this all relates to structure, though not commonly mentioned since we *usually* fish for largemouth where there is very little current. Smallies, in my experience can be a bit different.  They are less territorial, and while bound to structural patterns, a little more fickle in their location, from day to day.  Smallie hotspots come and go, but like Catt's example above, good largemouth spots always seem to have some fish.

[WRB]

Current can be visual faster directional moving water as evidenced by riffles, swirels, eddies, aquatic plants laying in one direction, debris drifting in one direction or changes in water color. We think of current as a river with rapid and whitewater or fast moving water with lots of surface disturbances but lake current is usually more subtle. Current breaks are seams in the water flow that create little water movement while faster and slower moving water come together. Structure that upsets the flow of water creates breaks by changing the water flow direction, obvious in faster moving water.

In lakes or man made impoundments dam or power plants create current by water movement through turbines. Wind also creates water movement and current, structure has the same affect regardless what created water to move over or past it. Even slight current affects how bass relate to structure and overlooked by most bass anglers.

Drifting phytoplankton moves with current and the Threadfin Shad follow feeding on the plankton, the predators then feed on the Shad, structure or current breaks is where all this comes together.

Tom

 

[slonezp]

5 hours ago, roadwarrior said:

On the Tennessee River current trumps everything. Next is depth. Although you will often find bass scattered shallow, for the most part ALL the fish are at a certain depth (range) on any given day. For whatever reason the two most common depths are ~8' or ~19'. Go figure...

 

 

Back in 2012 I fished a tournament on G'Ville. I met up with BR member zip pow who lives in Guntersville. One of the things he did was give me the number to the power company to see what time of day they would be generating electricity.

 

My home water is a mud hole soup bowl river system with an average depth of around 5ft. and max depth of 30ft. It's much easier to fish when the water is high because the fish are more predictable. I also fish the Wisconsin River quite a bit.  When the current is what I would call dangerously fast (average flow is 7,000 fps and the most I've fished is 17,000 fps)Catching walleye is like shooting fish in a barrel. Structure is key to fishing current because the fish will stack up in the breaks. 

[Team9nine]

On 1/10/2017 at 11:22 AM, reerok said:

Another slightly OT thought:  I enjoy watching MLF given its long form model and watching a small group of pros plan, approach, adapt, adjust, and panic.  Having recently read BP's "Spoonplugging" and Murphy's "In Pursuit..." it's given me a new perspective as I watch the show.  The thing is - what I'm seeing is somewhat troubling.  These guys will talk about structure very VERY briefly and almost always first thing in the morning.  They'll find what they believe to be a good deep point or bridge piling or something else and start there.  But almost invariably they all end up target fishing a bank or docks/marina.  Now my (mis)perception could easily be due to the slick editing of the show and them cutting the bits about the guys stating why they are fishing the shallow cover that they choose, but if I didn't know any better (which I didn't until I read the above books and posts here on this site) I would assume that to be a successful professional fisherman all I have to do is flip, crank, or whopper plopper a shoreline.  I emphatically know that not to be true.

 

So my question is:  Are these pros really just haphazardly beating the banks of lakes they're dropped on or are they putting to use all of the knowledge that is being shared here in this thread and only focusing on shallow cover that is associated with the breaks, breaklines, and deep water BP and Murphy and Catt and others talk about?

 

Watched the MLF Selects today and thought of your post. Doesn't answer your specific question, but I thought Mark Rose's comments on the subject of fishing out deep versus "beating the bank" in this format were interesting. He was getting pummeled early, but made a nice comeback in the latter half of the event.

 

Quote

 

MLF Select pro Mark Rose knows all too well how the high-risk offshore search for a “mother lode” goes in the MLF format.

 

“Trust me, it usually does not pan out very well,” said Rose, who is highly regarded as one of the best offshore structure fishermen on tour.

 

“I’ve tried it several times in this format,” Rose recalled. “You say to yourself you’re going to stick to it no matter what, but when that Scoretracker starts lighting up, it does something to you. It rushes you; it pushes you. You’re out there idling around without a bait in the water and the whole time your official is saying, ‘This guy just caught another bass. And that guy just caught another bass.’ I’m telling you it messes with your head and staying committed to the graphing game when that’s happening is really, really hard to do.”

 

Rose’s plan for the morning was to graph offshore during the ride through period. But if he did not see anything promising on his electronics, he would hit the bank for the official “lines in” call. “I’ve spent time graphing during the first period and I just got behind too far too fast because guys on the bank catch four or five up shallow in the first 30 minutes,” Rose said. “I know it’s June; I know the water is warm; I know fish should be offshore, but it takes a lot of time to find good offshore spots on an unfamiliar lake – sometimes days. The chances of finding something like that in an hour are just really slim.”

 

 

[riverbasser]

Good point team99. It makes plenty of sense.

 

BTW did you catch Poche tying on that rat after the first period to throw the other guys off? Too funny!

[gripnrip]

Well, well, well. I'm glad I finally took the time to read this little gem.  I work graveyard and it went well with my cup off coffee.  All I can say is thanks for this thread, Catt.  Being a new boater my problem has been finding the fish.  I have a mentor helping me out but this thread has given me a mindset where now I can put something together on my own.  Much appreciated.