Structure By Catt

[RoLo]

Whenever we speak of "Bassy-Looking" spots we're generally referring to the scenario "above" the waterline.

However, the fish's world is 'below' the waterline, so our 3D Downscanner is today's most valuable tool

for finding the ‘real’ sweet-spots, where Structure and Cover come together.

 

[Catt]

During the 5 day seminar Buck taught us how to dissect maps, what breaks/breaklines to look for once on the water; we talked structure fishing.

 

I have a surveyor's map of Toledo Bend that is in 1', 3', & 5' contours.

 

Part of Buck's map study was where to find maps; county surveyor is a public official in many counties of the USA.

 

A major player in the bass fishing boom of late 60s-early 70s was the building of lakes all across the south. TVA Lakes comprise of 33 lakes, every lake in Texas is manmade.

 

One would be amazed at how much mapping was done before these lakes were built!

[slonezp]

7 hours ago, scaleface said:

This is very true on my home lake , a flood control reservoir . Structure like a hump that has no route to the shallows , will rarely have bass . The bass just dont have time to find it and habituate it before the next muddy water flood hits . These places will still hold crappie , white bass and channel cats . Bass can be caught deep but there has to be that route for then to relate too .

 

Now on another smaller lake I fish often , there doesnt have to be that route . The water "never" fluctuates more than a couple of feet and if there is good structure or cover bass will find it without a path to the shallows .

How often is the water fluctuating? and why do you think it affects the bass but not the other gamefish?

 

Reason I bring this up is because most, if not all, freshwater gamefish follow the same seasonal and daily migration habits as bass do with the difference being where they live in relation to where they eat/spawn/shelter.You state other gamefish are attracted to this area, just not bass. Is it possible the food source is insufficient for bass or there are areas close by which offer a larger or more nutritious meal?

Catt mentioned earlier to learn the habits of the bass and then learn the habits of the bait. We have all caught other species of fish while bass fishing and I catch plenty of bass while targeting other species. If I catch bass while targeting panfish, I can bet the bass are targeting the panfish as well. If I'm not catching bass while targeting panfish, I can bet the bass are feeding on baitfish or crawfish and more than likely in another place on the lake. Where I live, bass are not at the top of the food chain. We catch plenty of pike and musky while bass fishing, and the musky guys are catching plenty of bass.....Were I a musky fisherman, I would be learning the habits of the bait (bass and panfish) because that's where the musky will be. 

[Paul Roberts]

Here's a big flat. It's pretty much the shallowest portion of the lake -about 10fow- and we are only seeing a portion of this expansive flat. And there's a boat down there. Is this guy wasting his time?

[scaleface]

10 hours ago, slonezp said:

How often is the water fluctuating? and why do you think it affects the bass but not the other gamefish?

 

It floods often , usually at least once a year and  when it floods it gets muddy .Sometimes the water stays high for more than a month , sometimes all spring and summer . If theres a hump that tops out at 15 foot , then it raises 25 foot, thats 40  foot of muddy water ,much  too deep for bass in this lake . When the water goes back down the bass have no way to follow it out . There are two humps in particular that I have never caught a single bass on . The other species roam open water in schools  more that bass and they will find and  occupy the spots .  

[Paul Roberts]

3 hours ago, scaleface said:

It floods often , usually at least once a year and  when it floods it gets muddy .Sometimes the water stays high for more than a month , sometimes all spring and summer . If theres a hump that tops out at 15 foot , then it raises 25 foot, thats 40  foot of muddy water ,much  too deep for bass in this lake . When the water goes back down the bass have no way to follow it out . There are two humps in particular that I have never caught a single bass on . The other species roam open water in schools  more that bass and they will find and  occupy the spots .  

Interesting scenario. Lotsa potential variables out there.

[Team9nine]

12 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

Here's a big flat. It's pretty much the shallowest portion of the lake -about 10fow- and we are only seeing a portion of this expansive flat. And there's a boat down there. Is this guy wasting his time?

 

Paul, No one is "biting" on your trick question ? Seems the obvious answer would be, if he's catching fish, then he's not wasting his time. If he's not catching anything, then I'd say he is wasting time ?

[RoLo]

12 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

Here's a big flat. It's pretty much the shallowest portion of the lake -about 10fow- and we are only seeing a portion of this expansive flat. And there's a boat down there. Is this guy wasting his time?

 

 

"Is he wasting his time?"

 

 

Quite possibly

If this were during the spawning season, he might do better in 1 to 4 ft of water  

 

Roger

[riverbasser]

I was just about to answer Paul's question as well. I'm looking on my phone so maybe I don't see as well as some but it looks to be a huge grass flat with pockets everywhere. Looks very similar to a lake the bassmasters visited last year( can't remembered name) but the fish were all in this stuff. When I say fish I mean all kinds of fish not just bass.

[Paul Roberts]

10 hours ago, Team9nine said:

 

Paul, No one is "biting" on your trick question ? Seems the obvious answer would be, if he's catching fish, then he's not wasting his time. If he's not catching anything, then I'd say he is wasting time ?

No trick question. Or at least no trap set. My idea is to give us something down at the nitty gritty to chew on, to illustrate what Catt presented in the OP, in a form that is not… a classic main lake point with a drop-off or creek channel at the end.

 

Thanks for participating, Roger. This was in June and there were fish in all stages. In my -I guess cryptic- tack, season really isn’t what I was thinking about. This area is used year round, probably even under the ice, although I haven’t ice-fished it.

 

I'm actually thinking along the lines of… "You can have structure without bass, but not bass without structure.” So, what defines “structure” when it’s not so obvious? Especially in light of the questions that always come up surrounding whether -or when- rocks, docks, weeds, party barges, water skiers, etc… can be considered “structure”.

 

Yes, riverbasser, you are remembering correctly.

 

And… so no one feels like they are walking into some kind of trap, I’ll get that unnerving lead-in question out of the way: The fisherman in the boat is Kevin Van Dam on his way to winning on Cayuga Lake with 75+lbs. There are bass on this structure, likely all year round.

 

Hoping to get some people’s thoughts here. Imagine the possibilities on such “structure”. After all, there are bass there; What could be at work there? This may be obvious to some, but not necessarily to others.

[riverbasser]

I wont lie if I came to this lake and saw this massive "grass flat?" I would be overwhelmed of where to start. There looks to be hundreds of pockets or indents so that's not really a help. Although the grass can be called structure and its a flat ,there still has to be structure underneath. No way it is perfectly flat. So in an area like this a 6 or 12 inch drop could make all the difference. 

 

I would also be really focusing in on any bait since there would have to be areas with groups of bait not just scattered evenly. 

[Catt]

2011 Bassmaster Classic New Orleans, Louisiana 

 

Several Pros including KVD were fishing the same huge pre-spawn feeding flat. VanDam keyed a small ditch running through the grass & stumps...he found it during practice after everyone else had left!

[MFBAB]

The fisherman in the boat is Kevin Van Dam on his way to winning on Cayuga Lake with 75+lbs. There are bass on this structure, likely all year round.

We can just leave it here if you wish. I was hoping to get some people’s thoughts here. Imagine the possibilities on such “structure”. After all, there are bass there; What could be at work there? This may be obvious to some, but not necessarily to others. Fun game? A waste of time? A trick?

 

My guess is that the open areas are big rocks or something that grass doesn't grow on, and the grassy areas are probably softer bottom. 

I'm thinking he is dropping plastic into the open areas, this is a fairly standard grass strategy.  

As far as why the bass are there, I guess that's where the food is. 

Also, in that part of the country it was probably equivalent to late spring in my part of the country, in terms of water temp, etc...Wasn't that tourney in June or early July?

I don't think there has to be some major daily migration if the fish have food, stable water, oxygen and security (cover). Those fish would probably just bury in the grass during a bad front and get lock-jaw rather than leave, but they would definitely evacuate the area if the water started falling or got ridiculously cold, etc.

(A good example is one of the MLF tourneys last year, I think on the MS River up north.  There were lots of backwaters loaded w grass, and about 90% of the field got sucked in to those areas, which were virtually fishless.  The problem was that the water was low, it had fallen prior to the tourney....and guess who? KVD stayed on the outside edges of the backwaters on the first downstream breaks (structure) and found those fish stacked up!!)

It would help to see a more zoomed out view to see what leads in to this flat, I assume this flat is hard water in the winter and the fish would likely migrate to something a little deeper. 

[Paul Roberts]

19 hours ago, riverbasser said:

There looks to be hundreds of pockets or indents so that's not really a help. Although the grass can be called structure and its a flat ,there still has to be structure underneath. No way it is perfectly flat.

 

19 hours ago, Catt said:

VanDam keyed a small ditch running through the grass & stumps...he found it during practice after everyone else had left!

 

19 hours ago, MFBAB said:

My guess is that the open areas are big rocks or something that grass doesn't grow on, and the grassy areas are probably softer bottom. 

...

As far as why the bass are there, I guess that's where the food is. 

...

I don't think there has to be some major daily migration if the fish have food, stable water, oxygen and security (cover). Those fish would probably just bury in the grass during a bad front and get lock-jaw rather than leave, but they would definitely evacuate the area if the water started falling or got ridiculously cold, etc.

 

(A good example is one of the MLF tourneys last year, I think on the MS River up north.  There were lots of backwaters loaded w grass, and about 90% of the field got sucked in to those areas, which were virtually fishless.  The problem was that the water was low, it had fallen prior to the tourney....and guess who? KVD stayed on the outside edges of the backwaters on the first downstream breaks (structure) and found those fish stacked up!!)

 

It would help to see a more zoomed out view to see what leads in to this flat, I assume this flat is hard water in the winter and the fish would likely migrate to something a little deeper. 

 

Now we're talking.

 

The Lake is Cayuga Lake, a 40mile long mostly oligotrophic glacial lake, in NYS, that averages well over 200ft in depth (max over 400). That flat is about a mile wide, and almost 2mi. long.

 

Here's a map:

[Catt]

KVD called it a "ditch", his description was that it was several inches deeper than the surrounding area & about a 1 1/2 foot wide. What he realized was it was the breakline the pre-spawn bass were using to move through the flat from deeper water to shallower. 

After looking at the weather forecast for the 4 day tournament which showed a warming trend he decided to spend all 4 days on this " ditch" & without out catching a single bass pre-fishing.

[riverbasser]

Seems "ditches" come into play in a lot of tournaments or its at least a popular term used by the pros to describe a break? I can't really say for sure that I've ever found but one true ditch and it was a man made ditch next to a submerged road. 

[Paul Roberts]

On 1/4/2017 at 10:33 AM, Catt said:

KVD called it a "ditch", his description was that it was several inches deeper than the surrounding area & about a 1 1/2 foot wide. What he realized was it was the breakline the pre-spawn bass were using to move through the flat from deeper water to shallower. 

After looking at the weather forecast for the 4 day tournament which showed a warming trend he decided to spend all 4 days on this " ditch" & without out catching a single bass pre-fishing.

Form, Function, Fit.

[Catt]

4 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

Form, Function, Fit.

 

Most anglers look for a pattern within a parrtern...I want the sweet spot on structure... Honey Hole!

 

This one is usually under 4-6'

[J Francho]

I can tell you this, you better find something structural, that is useful and attractive to bass in the north end of Cayuga, or you aren't getting bit post spawn, and into summer.  There are fish there, but if you're an impatient, chuck and duck guy, you'll think it's a barren wasteland.  BTW, I came in 3rd one year at a club deal with 19+ lbs. from "particular" boat slips in the far north end, in mid summer.  I think less than 8 oz. separated the top five.

[Paul Roberts]

Not sure who it was, but like others interviewed, one pro said he had quality fish in certain spots (some on beds, others groups in pre or post). When he moved away from these spots, he found only smaller ones. 

[J Francho]

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

Not sure who it was, but like others interviewed, one pro said he had quality fish in certain spots (some on beds, others groups in pre or post). When he moved away from these spots, he found only smaller ones. 

 

I fished several tournaments on Cayuga, over the course of several years.  One year was particularly tough, immediate post spawn, followed by a clear, cool, dry, cold front.  The winner that day drowned senkos in one small cove that featured one of @riverbasser's "female points," leading to an adjacent weed flat, maybe around 8' at it's deepest.  He didn't know what was so special, but he said all of the bigger fish came from a specific area, and if veered off that area, no fish, or dinks.  This wasn't a guy to use his graph, and in fact only had a flasher at the console.  I suspect he "discovered" some trench or other subtle feature that pro you mentioned, and KVD were honed in on.  Point being, structure can be huge, and blatant, or almost invisible, elusive, as Buck described - only being able to be detected by your lure.  The guy that won that day, won by a large margin.  He only fishes senkos.  When most of the field struggles, he usually does well.

[Todd2]

I was going to put this question in a different thread but this is a good structure "conversation" and it fits right in I think.

 

When focusing on structure, what % of the time are you making contact with it opposed to fishing just above it? I'm not talking about a 18 inch drop shot, for example, to me that is basically bottom fishing especially with the angle when casting. But lets say you have a ditch,  drop off, whatever, thats in 14 FOW, are most of your fish on it or up in the water column above it? I almost always seem to focus on the bottom unless I'm marking something but I wonder if I'm fishing below some fish and should be counting down at different depths swimming a grub or something through.

 

 

[riverbasser]

44 minutes ago, Todd2 said:

I was going to put this question in a different thread but this is a good structure "conversation" and it fits right in I think.

 

When focusing on structure, what % of the time are you making contact with it opposed to fishing just above it? I'm not talking about a 18 inch drop shot, for example, to me that is basically bottom fishing especially with the angle when casting. But lets say you have a ditch,  drop off, whatever, thats in 14 FOW, are most of your fish on it or up in the water column above it? I almost always seem to focus on the bottom unless I'm marking something but I wonder if I'm fishing below some fish and should be counting down at different depths swimming a grub or something through.

 

 

fish can be right on it or suspended above it. In most cases if they're  right on it they are active, if they're suspended above it they're usually inactive. I like to make contact with the bottom most of the time.

[RoLo]

1 hour ago, Todd2 said:

I was going to put this question in a different thread but this is a good structure "conversation" and it fits right in I think.

 

When focusing on structure, what % of the time are you making contact with it opposed to fishing just above it? I'm not talking about a 18 inch drop shot, for example, to me that is basically bottom fishing especially with the angle when casting. But lets say you have a ditch,  drop off, whatever, thats in 14 FOW, are most of your fish on it or up in the water column above it? I almost always seem to focus on the bottom unless I'm marking something but I wonder if I'm fishing below some fish and should be counting down at different depths swimming a grub or something through.

 

 

 

 

That's an excellent question!

 

I can only speak for myself, but in my experience structure puts NO constraints on fish depth.

Depth constraints are imposed by other stuff like water temperature, thermocline, oxycline,

light level and last but not least, 'forage'.

All the same, the underlying structure (terrestrial contour) serves as the magnet.

 

Roger

[Team9nine]

Since we're still discussing KVD and Cayuga, here's a little something tied to Paul's picture and question that I ran by him off-line. What follows is a large portion of the write-up that another site did covering KVD's win on Cayuga that Paul used in his example (literally copy/paste). What I have inserted in bold are my comments in regards to how one Spoonplugger/structure fisherman (myself) "interprets," if you will, what is being written, but using "our/Buck's" terms - kind of a thought deconstruction. Lots of ways you can spin/analyze the scenario, whether Paul's "form/fit/function," or some other interpretation. My point was simply that based on the details, you could easily construct an explanation that fits nicely with Buck Perry's message and teachings.

 

 

Quote

 

As he stated above, it didn’t take VanDam long to realize he had an opportunity to do really well at Cayuga. Smallmouth and largemouth were spawning all around the lake (so these were largely spawners that even Buck would expect up shallow and on flats due to their seasonal movement), but there were groups of fish in pre-spawn mode and another group that had already moved out of those areas. It was a matter of dialing in which areas had the better quality.

Locating as many fish on beds as he could was his first priority. He found a mix of both species.

“I marked a lot of fish,” he said. “I had like 30 miles of ‘em, but there were a lot of stretches where you’d go a long way and it’d be one here and there. Over the course of the event, I checked them all.

“In doing that, I found areas with groups of largemouths staging on the inside grass line (a grassline is just a "breakline" which Buck writes about extensively, and which any good structure fisherman would search and check out). I’m not sure if those were pre- or post-spawn, but I fished for those with a 4- or 5-inch Strike King Ocho wacky-rigged.”

He also identified a couple of key docks that were holding fish, which proved valuable because not every dock was productive (Buck wrote that docks are actually nothing more than "breaks," and as such, certain ones will be better than others based upon their relationship to other variables (such as structure, breaklines, deep water, etc.).

“There was one where I could see 12 fish under there,” he said. “You could then go a couple miles and not find another one holding fish. It reminded me of Clear Lake in that sense.”

 

When it came to the areas where he was looking at fish, he didn’t go back through that water later on. He did, however, revisit areas where fish were holding on grass lines ("breaklines") and hanging out around holes and hard-bottom areas in the grass (again, all "breaks" that a good structure fisherman would try and identify) on the northern end.

 

 

And a thought in regard to Todd2's question:

 

1 hour ago, Todd2 said:

When focusing on structure, what % of the time are you making contact with it opposed to fishing just above it? I'm not talking about a 18 inch drop shot, for example, to me that is basically bottom fishing especially with the angle when casting. But lets say you have a ditch,  drop off, whatever, thats in 14 FOW, are most of your fish on it or up in the water column above it? I almost always seem to focus on the bottom unless I'm marking something but I wonder if I'm fishing below some fish and should be counting down at different depths swimming a grub or something through.

 

Just another thought based on Buck's guidelines. Anything in shallow water (8-10' or less), you have to fish the entire water column, top, middle and bottom. However, once you move out into deep water, you only fish the bottom. That's not to say that there aren't fish suspended up higher, but in most cases the more active fish that you are likely to get to bite are the ones that have moved in contact with the structure (on bottom). If the suspended fish are active at all, you'll likely discover this in the process of your fishing by them either hitting your bait on the drop before it ever reaches bottom, or hitting as you reel in after fishing the bottom. But you don't waste much time intentionally trying to find and catch suspended fish (that may or may not be there) above these structures in deep water.

 

-T9