Soldering tips needed

[Madhouse27]

Well, I've decided to replace the 8 guage tm wires in my boat with new 6 guage. In the past I've always used the Ancor marine grade lugs for my connection to the batteries and each side of the circuit breaker. I never soldered them to the ends of the wires, I just squeezed them on until they felt tight around the wire and then covered them with the shrink rubber tubing. Along with the 8 guage wires this has been bothering me. This time I want to get this system rock solid, buy two new batteries and be done with it.  Although I've seen it done, I've never actually soldered anything myself. I've been reading up on the whole process but could use a few tips on what unit to buy and anything else you think I should know. As always, thanks for any help.

[Ben]

First off, you will need a Benz-O-Matic tourch, forget trying a solderning iron.

Next is some rosin core solder.  Paste will help the solder flow and bond, but not 100% necessary..

Now, I prefer to crimp the connectors before soldering them.  Mainly because of the basic rule of soldering, make a good mechanical connection before soldering.   Crimping is going to create a problem for you, I have a $600 crimper I use, kinda doubt you have such.  They also make a crimper that's nothing but a block with a wedge that you place your connector in and smack it with a hammer, I think those are about $10.  Another method that will work is to take a 3/8" chisel, grind the sharp edge off so it's somewhat rounded.  Hold the chisel with the edge inline with the cable in the center of the connector where you would normally crimp it and smack it a couple of times with a hammer.  This will fold the center in similar to what a crimper would do.  Then you solder it.  If you have paste, apply it to the cable and inside the connector before crimping.

To solder it, use your tourch to heat the copper lug, (I do hope you're using full copper lugs for #6 wire), while holding the solder on the wire and pushing it into the back of the lug.  When it starts melting, keep feeding the solder until it's full. If it starts getting too hot, back the tourch away.  If you have small solder, twist several strands together until it's about 1/8" in diameter and at least a foot long.  It makes things go a lot quicker, it's going to take a lot of solder.

Once you get done, get you some heat shrink tubing with the sealer in it.  Cover the crimped end of the lug and two or three inches for the cable.

Hope this helps

[MyKeyBe]

Ben covered that really well. The only point I will make is to make sure the connector is hot enough to melt the solder and you are not using the heat of the torch. You do not want a "cold joint"

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

To avoid cold joints heat the connector at one end and apply solder to the far end. The solder will be drawn into the connector properly, toward the heat source. Be sure none of it moves until the solder cools. Don't use solder with resin core.

Jim

[Ben]

Don't know of a resin core solder, you DO want to use a ROSIN core solder and don't use acid core.

As long as you keep the heat on the lug and not up on the solder, it will melt and flow into the lug just fine. Beside, if you crimp it good the way I mentioned, the crimp alone is good enough, the solder is just extra insurance. It also fills in any spaces to help contamination (moisture, battery acid etc) from getting in a corroding the connection. The self sealing heat shrink is also just another layer of protection and not tottaly necessary. You can just wrap them good with 3M 33+ electrical tape and be just fine.

[Madhouse27]

Ben when it comes to electronics/batteries you are certainly the site guru. You meantioned a paste. Could you elaborate a little on that so I make sure I get the right stuff. Your explanation of the process was awesome. Thanks man!

[Ben]

Don't know about the guru part. A guru is suppose the be an expert.  The only thing I claim to be an expert at is staying in trouble with my wife.

Just go by a Radio Shack, electronics parts store, or Graingers and tell them you want a small 8 oz spool of rosin core solder, and some paste to go with it.  The paste will usually come in a round flat plastic container and look like a very thick grease.  If all the solder they have is those little plastic tubes, might want to get a couple of those but for what they charge for those little things you might want to go up to a 1 pound spool.

[ernel]

If I remeber correctly, the grease Ben is referring to is called "flux".

[Ben]

Nothing wrong with your memory.  Yes the real, technical name for soldering paste it is flux.  Get so used to calling it by it's slang name, forget not everyone knows it's real name.  Can't even post what the slang name for the white thermal joint compound or heat sink compound is.

[MyKeyBe]

Another reason to solder along with crimping is to get rid of air gaps that create voltage loss. Granted the loss is minimal but why not get the best connection you can.  Sounds silly but it is true.

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

Electronics require electronics solder, nothing like that used for sweating copper pipe fittings. If you are dipping flux you are probably not doing it right, probably using the wrong type out of many types of flux designed for various metals. Electronics solder contains tiny strands of special flux, not acidic resin flux, less corrosive. I was an electronic technician in the Navy, soldering electronics circuits for aircraft  a way of life for 4 years at a work bench configuring mysterious "black boxes" for anti missle components. I've continued tinkering in electronics ever since. Here's a little primer for the beginner. http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/solder.htm  

Jim

[Madhouse27]

I'm noticing on the solder packaging that they are describing different ratios of materials used in the solder. I bought one that said "Lead Free Rosin Core Electrical Solder 95%tin 5% Antimony while the other package was simply described as 60/40 Rosin Core Solder for electrical use. Is there a certain one I should be looking for. My new wires should be here monday so I am getting ready for action. The price for 6 guage was $3.49 a foot at West Marine in the next town over   I thought that was outrageous so I ordered it online and paid .99 cents per foot. I ordered 21 feet of both black and red as well as a 6 guage adapter for my Marinco Connectpro plug. Can't wait to get this thing buttoned down right.

[Ben]

Stickwith the 60/40 solder rosin core.  We're not gonna worry about possilbe lead contamination on battery cables.

Also forgot to mention, get you a small amount of denatured alchohol and a couple of acid bruches and clean the resin off after soldering.

$3.50 per foot is way too much but I would also have to question the $1.00 per for stuff you ordered.  If it's the fine strand used for battery cables then you got a great deal on it.  Usually, $1.50 - $2.00 per foot is the going price for it.

[Madhouse27]

Ben I ordered the wire through Cabelas. There wasn't a strand count or anything but it was certainly the multi strand style. It was shown in their TM battery accessories section of the website. I'm hoping the quality is as good as the 8 guage stuff I have now. I did find some 6 guage at another Marine store down here that is going for $1.79 ft if the Cabelas stuff is sub par. Hey can you just swing over Monday night and do this for me  ;D

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

I suggest going to Radio Shack and getting solder that doesn't corrode. Marine wiring is a lot different from automobile and copper pipe jobs. Dissimilar metals guarantee some corrosion, and moisture aggravates that. Solder for electronics is fourmulated to prevent marine corrosion, whether for battery cables or signal wiring. It's more expensive, but you'll solder once, the terminal corroding at the battery connection long before the wire/connector corrodes.

Jim

[Ben]

60/40 rosin core is the standard (non corrosive) solder used in electronics work.  It's perfectly safe for doing his battery carbles and any other electroncs circuit or wires he might want to use it on.  

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

I prefer lead free electronics solder. Lead corrodes easily in marine conditions.

Heat one end of the connector, apply electronics solder to the other end, and wait until the solder melts and is drawn towards the heat source. It will spread all over wire and connector. Don't gob it on or mound it up. All you need is a glaze of solder coating a copper connector to prevent corrosion. Never poke solder inside a connector trying to stuff it. Thick solder doesn't melt and cool correctly, leaving bands of various quality alloy.

Jim

[RobDar]

soldering can cause you more problems than it is worth if you are not careful. The most common mistakes made is overheating the wire. The heat changes the resistance in the wire...increases it...and lessens its amp carry capacity as a result. So if you have 6 gauge 60 amp capacity wires the have been over heated...you may have only 50 amp capacity at the connection. Electrical systems are most definately only as good as their weakest part...so you will only have wiring good for 50 amps in this case.

Use good quality electrical crimp connectors...the Burndy or Hubbell ones you by at an Electrical supply house...not the cheapy G&B or similar you find at Home Depot or AutoZone...use the proper crimp tool, not your pliers...and pick up a chemical called Pentrox while you are getting your terminals. Cover the wires in Pentrox before applying the crimps. The Pentrox is an antioxidant anti diaelectric compound that also resists water, oil, etc that may be present in your compartment. The wire will fail before the connections do.

...upgrading my trolling motor iring was the best decision I ever made!!!!

[Ben]

Folks, ya'll are trying to make this sound a whole lot more complicated than it is.  He's not working on some highly sophisticated electronics device, he's just making a set of cables for his TM.   60/40 rosin core solder has be the standard solder for general electonics for many, many years, and as I stated earlier, it will work for his application just fine.   About  the only time you use a lead free solder is in water lines or must have a food grade connection.  

I think in my first reply I said to crimp before soldering to make a good mechanical connection.  Granted using a chisel is not quite the same as my $750 Thomas&Betts crimp set but will make more than good enough crimp for his job.  I've done the same thing in a pinch on terminal lugs used at over 500 amps, with no problems and they were not soldered in conjunction with the crimp.  As for not letting it move, the crimp is going to do that.

Over heating the cable???? He's applying the heat to the terminal end, do you really think without hold the tourch directly to the cable, he's going to over heat the cable to the point is going to hurt it, the solder would be blowing out everywhere.  

For terminal ends, if you can buy from Graingers, get some 3LL41 (1/4"), 3LL58 (5/16"), or 3LL62 (3/8"), just depends on the size bolt holes you want

If you can't buy from graingers, many auto parts stores have the full copper lugs for #6 wire.  If not most of the welding supply houses have them.   Finding them with the right size bolt hole is sometimes a problem, most of the time they only have the 3/8"

This is a very simple process, don't try to make it sound like it's rocket science.

[Madhouse27]

What model welder's helmet should I get for the job?  ;D

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

I agree it's a simple matter. I disagreed with the original advice to stuff a connector full of solder. If heat is applied at one end and quality solder is applied at the cooler end, a small glaze of solder is sufficient and even superior to stuffing a connector full. I also disagreed over solder, the kind used for sweating copper pipes not lasting long in a damp marine environment. Just like copper pipe joints turning green under a house, so will the connectors turn green if lead is part of the solder. A corroded connector will cause loss of power in the trolling motor and will contribute to electrical noise affecting electronics equipment. I do agree with the advice of properly crimping a connector, preferring that over soldering with a gob of plumber's solder.

Jim

[Ben]

Let me try this one last time.

Once crimped, that makes a good physical connection, soldering the lug after crimping adds very little as for continuity, but it fills in the spaces in the lug so moisture etc can get in there and stay, causing corrosion.

I have never in my life used 60/40 "ROSIN" core solder to solder copper pipe and have never known anyone that did, so not sure where you're coming from saying I'm reccommending he use copper pipe solder. In non drinking water pipes, "ACID" core solder is the solder used for copper pipes, this is no where near the same as "ROSIN" core. For drinking water and food grade joints you use the lead free solder someone earlier in the post was trying to get him to use for his application.

So, I hope the hell ya'll either learn to read so you can understand what's posted, or learn something about what you're talking about before you start telling someone how he should do something because this crap is getting unreal. I know me having a degree and over 30 years experience in electronics (a lot of very advanced electronics at that) plus I currenlty work daily with batteries and chargers from 120 Ah to over 1,500 Ah and connections that carry upwards of a 1,000 amps don't mean mean much but during all that, I think I've learned a little about what I'm talking about.  Even though I didn't go into the details of molecular structure of copper and solder and all the possible pitfalls associated with using the stuff.  Of course that could be because it's tottaly not necessary for his application.

Now, ya'll have fun, this is my last post on this subject.

[RatONaStick]

Ben is 100% correct on this.

There is no need to use anything other than Rosin core solder. When lead corrodes it is an external type of corrosion, If a connection is soldered properly this will not affect any continuity. Take a wire brush and clean it and it will look just like new again.

As a matter of fact the copper wire will probably need replaced before the soldered connection.

[Madhouse27]

First of all let me thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I certainly appreciate all the words of advice. For the record, I received my new wires today from Cabelas. The quality is excellent! It is certainly superior to the stock wires that Skeeter built into my boat and appears to be the same stuff West Marine had for over three times the Cabelas price. When the rain stops, the project starts.