Charging batteries while towing

[reellittlephish]

Anyone on the forum who has used the StayNCharge, I'd like to hear about your experiences with it...

Anyone who has a Stealth 1 or Stealth Optima onboard charger installed, I'd like to hear about your experiences as well

Out here in Nevada I am driving at least an hour and half to the water lately and camping out - doing more multiday trips due to the price of fuel.  I figure the cost of an onboard  charging system will be easily paid back aganst what is charged to get a sip of electricity at RV camping spots (currently $15 to 25 a night).

Thanks, Tom

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

I use both StanCharge as the All Charge from the same company. Unless I have to drain the batteries on a very windy day without using the outboard over about hours to charge on the water in that situation, my batteries return home with 70% charge or more using the StaynCharge on the trip home. If I run the outboard a couple of hours on a calm day with minimal use of trolling motor, the StaynCharge has the batteries at full charge when boast is returned home. I ran the batteries all the way down on Lake Millwood, hooked up the StaynCharge there, and by the time I got home they were 100%. It has it's limits. Running them nearly dead with only an hour of outboard use and only 20 minutes of trip home leaves them around 25% according to the AC charger guage, charging on the AC charger all night at 2 amps per hour for ten hours (20 amps put back in). The batteries are not really discharging more than about 20 amps total yet showing 25%. I think it must mean 25% of say 80% top charge. Below that 80% (used up the top 20% of overall capacity) the voltage is too low to run anything but nav lights and maybe electronics which can run on 10.8 volts.

Jim

[Ben]

I don't use either of those but first let me ask, are you talking about charging the batteries with an onboard charger that will charge from the boat motor or from the tow vehicle?  Neither of those charging system are going to be very practicle for what you're wanting to do.  In fact, neither will probably do what you're wanting.  

Forget what they advertise when they say they will charge from the boat motor or the tow vehicle, yes they will do that but you have to look at the reality of it.  

Charging from the boat motor, what size charging system does it have, subtract at least 10 - 15 amps of that to run the motor if you're running a fuel injected, especially a direct injected motor.  The remaining amps have got to charge the cranking battery before much is sent to the TM batteries.   Even then, the charger should still only charge at the charge rate it's designed for.   After all, you can't charge deep cycle batteries at 40 - 50 amps like you can a car cranking battery, about 15 amps is all you really want to charge one, 20 amps is really pushing it.   Even at 15 amp and the batteries are only down to 50% charge, you're looking at at least three hours of motor run time to fully charge your batteries.  Even using the vehicle, that's still a long time to have one running to charge your batteries.  

Pro Mariner's Pro Tourney Series chargers charge from the boats charging system.  I've been running the ProTournies for several years, currently running the PT-300 three bank.  I also run a Curtis, digital battery charge indicator (BCI) at the front deck monitoring the TM batteries.  Unless I make a very long run, I've never seen the BCI show any increase in charge level from one fishing spot to the other.  My motor runs a 35 amp charging system.

All the adds make all those features sound good "on paper" to get you to buy them but take time to do the math and see just how benificial they really are.

My suggestion is to do the same thing I do when going to remote areas that don't have power.  Take along one of those small Honda generaters.  I use a 1000 watt one, it's fairly quit,  it charges the batteries and provides plenty power for lights and other small electric devices like a TV etc.

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

You're a bit too late to try convincing me about the All Charge & StaynCharge. They work regardless of the theories why they shouldn't. I'm very pleased with my setup. The All Charge is operated by the StaynCharge off the tow vehicle, or off the outboard. The cranking battery gets a direct shot from the alternator. Leads from that battery go to the All Charge, which alternates between batteries 5 minutes each detecting charge level, then charging as needed. The only time it doesn't work on the water is when the outboard is shut down.

Jim

[Ben]

Not trying to convince you of anything, I'm glad you are very happy with your system, that's why they make so many different brands. I don't think you read his post very well though. I read it as him wanting a system to charge his batteries overnight while he's camping. Didn't say your system won't charge going down the road, as for that, you don't need a charging system, for a few bucks worth of diodes, I can build an isolater that will let your vehicle charge all three batteries without and kind of charging system in the boat. Didn't even say it won't charge from the outboard, just said it won't work for what "HE" wants to do.

My statement was directed toward him wanting to charge his batteries while at the lake and there is no onboard charging system that's going to do that in a feasible manner without AC power connected. Either the outboard or the vehicle is going to have to be run for hours to charge the batteries to 100%. There is no charging system that's going to let you get around that.

Yes, StayNCharge, Stealth, ProMariner all will charge the TM batteries from the Outboard's charging system but again, not unless the outboard is run for long periods of time like making long trips down the lake and I would think it would be a lot cheaper to pay slip fees than just run the boat the time it would need to charge the batteries.

Now there are other things he can do for work arounds, like take a spare set of batteries, etc, etc, but I personnaly don't like having to take the heavy things in and out.

Now if your charging system will keep your cranking battery and your TM batteries charged to anywhere near 100% for several days of fishing off the boats charging system, or by a short time of running the vehicle connected while at the lake it has to be an FM system.

Oh, buy the way, to keep from having to post again explaining an FM system, it's Frigging Magic

[Muddpuppy]

I also use a small Honda generator for chargeing when camping. I had checked into an onboard charger at one time, but after talking to a couple of dealers, I didn't feel like I ran my motor near enough to help me much on an average trip.  They both had similar systems to the stealth on there boats and liked them, but were pretty much in agreement with me for my use.

[reellittlephish]

I really appreciate the input guys, but please no need to be confrontational.  To clarify my situation;  I live in an apartment complex where to charge my batteries I have to remove them from the boat, take them upstairs and put them on portable chargers.  Been doing that for 2 years and it is workable.

What I was hoping to do was be able to charge my batteries, cranking and trolling motor batteries while driving to the local water.  Now Lake Mead is about a 45 minute drive one way for me and everything else is farther.  Lake Mojave is about 1 hour and 45 minutes to Cottonwood one way.  Bullhead City (access to the south end of Lake Mojave) is 2 hours of driving.  Needles and Lake Havasu is about 3 hours of driving about 125 miles.  Temple Bar on Lake Mead is 125 miles.  Echo Bay is 76 miles and 2 hours.

I can fish about 2 full ( 12+hours) days on the Trojan SCS225's in moderate wind (to 15mph) and be drawn down to 60% of battery capacity if my portable charger gages are accurate.  If it is calm or I am not using the TM a lot, I can get 3 days.  I mentioned my motor size; it is carburated, but I don't know what amount of current the alternator is putting out to my cranking battery. My Lowrance X15 indicates I can bring the battery from say 11.4v to 12.7v in about 25 minutes of running at 4500 RPM. I was doing that regularly this early spring running to some coves 7 miles northeast of Callville Bay.  I fished out of small boat for years so I have to alter my normal behavior to do a run and gun pattern -meaning I seldom run more than 15 miles one way locally.

Now, I don't expect a driving while charging system to recover my batteries to 100% in 90 minutes of driving.  But if I could fish locally for more than 2 days, returning to the apartment nightly, without pulling the TM batteries for a recharge after a days use, a tow vehicle charging system might be worth purchasing. I know as long as I live in these apartments I will have to remove the TM batteries and charge them on the portables. For local trips knowing my cranking battery would be topped is comforting; especially night fishing during the summer.

As far as trips go.  My usual behavior might be to drive somewhere, for instance I am thinking about driving to Northern CA from Las Vegas about a day and half to fish there for 2 weeks.  I was thinking I could use a drive while charging system while motoring to the various ramps on Clear Lake thereby prolonging the intervals between paying for a charge in an RV park.  At $25 a night just to charge batteries I can pay for a charging system in 12 RV visits; if it works??  Typical behavior might be launch, fish all day, rack the Skeeter on the trailer, drive 20 miles round trip for chores or to a camp spot, sack out, repeat next morning.  If I install an on board system I fully expect to use a 115v. AC circuit to charge during trips, but them I wouldn't have to carry the portables around.  Hope this clarifies what I want to do and what I expect...

I know about the 1000 watt generator .  Pretty reasonable prices also.  I haven't crunched all the numbers yet, but I will before spending money. I think about carrying 2 stroke fuel around and the noise for the rated output;  reluctant to go this route.  I also talked to my son (fishing partner) about running the # 2 gage wire with an isolater circuit from the Toyota's alternator to the back of the truck.  Is this all the StayNCharge is?

So I really appreciate the feedback .  I am especially interested in how you installed the various components and how they have lasted to date.  Anyone running the Stealth?

[camofish]

I too have the All-charger and Stay-n-Charge. I only have the All-charger hooked up right now in the boat and in the last 3 trips, I've had nothing but good things to say about the system. With the warmer weather coming, I plan on hooking up the charger in the truck so that I can use both of the chargers together. IF you have any questions just call them, they have excellent tech services and can answer any questions and also help you to installing it, but the system goes in, in less than an hour.

http://www.stayncharge.com/

Great product.

[Low_Budget_Hooker]

sidenote to Ben's comment.

overnight Boat slip $8

Running a mercury 225 or a 6 cyl truck for 4 hrs straight-$20-50?

[Ben]

Allcharge says it will charge your completely dead batteries in two hours.  Two 110Ah deep cycle batteries in two hours will have to be charged at a rate of approx 50 amps each, what's that doing to the batteries?

Two 110Ah deep cylce batteries run down to 25%.  Charge them in two hours and that's about a 35 amp per battery charge rate, again what about the batteries?

Cable going from the vehicle to the charger capable of handling 100 amps would need to be at least #4 AWG and should be #2.  That would also be if the vehicle's system could even deliver that much current for that long without going up in smoke.

Cable to handle even the 70 amps would need to be at least #6 AWG from the vehicle.

This is not even adding in the cranking battery because I figure it will top off pretty quick.

I'm not saying these system don't work, I'm just saying do the math and tell me how they work as they claim.  I guess I just live in the real world and have to hard time understanding/believing what some companies claim their products will do when the realistic numbers say otherwise.

Kinda reminds me of my old CB days when a guy said he had an amp that put out 1000 watts.  I asked what all he had to do to his vehicle to get that much power and he said it was plugged into his cigarette lighter.  Back then, it would have taken about a 1500 watt input to give a 1000 watt output.  That would have been about 120 amps out of his lighter plug, yeaaa riiiigggth.

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

Ben, I was just going by the title of the post, charging while TOWING. You are figuring it all correctly, but assuming the batteries are run down that low. Running to 25% of charge is doing damage, sulfating the batteries big time. Doing that is harder on batteries than charging them at high amperage when already at a minimum of 50%. I use a digital meter to check batteries and won't run them past 10.5 volts/20%. According to the meter manual a deep cycle battery has two phases of charge, a base charge and a top charge. When you use up the top 20% the trolling motor nearly quits, but you could still run electronics until hitting a minimum voltage needed to keep them running. It's the cold cranking amps that matter most, a surge capability, that is easily drawn off at high trolling speeds. Even if that is used up you could run lighting several days. So the meter is apparently set up to show the top 20% of surge power in green. I don't know what I want to know about that. All I know is it works. It takes 4 hours of trolling on slow speed to break into the red, bottom 80%. High speed trolling in high wind does that in 2 hours. When it gets to the border zone I take off and restore the top 20% in about 30 minutes of running at moderate speed, quicker at full throttle. If I let it get into the red it takes an hour of running my 50 HP outboard at least 50% throttle. I've often taken a noon break at the ramp and used the truck to charge an hour at water's edge, using maybe a gallon or two of fuel at idle, eating lunch in the AC, or heat in winter.

A fishing buddy picks me up for night catfishing in a 20 foot wide river flat bottom boat. He has the smallest Honda generator mounted on a board with a rubber mat under it. It purrs along with no vibration, running lights and charging batteries full time on about a gallon of fuel. He never has to hook his batteries to a charger.

Around here the only way to get a slip is to get it by the year at a minimum of $600 a year, up to $1,500 for small boats, $4,000 for houseboats. It's rare for a small slip to come available. They are passed between friends. You can have a Honda for $600 (less at a pawn shop) and enjoy it for camping as well as charging batteries at lower amps overnight.

Jim

[Ben]

Your right in that you should never run a battery below 20% charge but I think you made a typo, 20% charge is approx 11.7 VDC.  or approx 1.100 specific gravity.  Don't want someone thinking it's ok to run one down to 10.5.

Yes you can charge a battery at a much higher rate until it reaches 80% then it has to be cut way back for the last 20%.  Doing this still shortens the life of the battery.

Running a battery down to 20% or lower does not cause the cells to sulphate as long as it's charged shortly afterwards.  It's when it's run down and left uncharged for long periods of time that cause them to sulphate.  They can start to sulphate in less than 24 hours.

I might recommend you put a good, deep equalizing charge on your batteries (I'm assuming you're running two TM batteries), let them sit 24 hours and check them with a good hydrometer.  You should get a reading of 1.270 - 1.280 on most deep cycles.  Some will show 1.300 but not many brands use electrolite that hot.  If they are sealed batteries they should read at least 12.6 volts and if real good 12.7 - 12.8 VDC.  From what your describing they are runnning down and charging back up too quickly.  This is common in batteries that are near the end of their life cycle because the Ah capacity has been greatly reduced and it doesn't take as much to charge or discharge them.  I have no idea what size batteries your running so I'm just basing this on two good 110 - 120 Ah deep cycle batteries which may be way more battery than yours.

[reellittlephish]

I've gotten a bit deeper into this and have some numbers for the thread.  My 2004 Toyota Tacoma's alternator puts out 70 amps and the Yamaha C115 outboard apparently is a 55 amp alternator.  

It appears those who have a StayNCharge really like them.  Has anyone connected a StayNCharge to another brand of onboard charging system?  

One person sent me a gallery of photos on how he hooked up his StayNCharge..  I'd appreciate pictures of onboard charger setups also.  

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

The StaynCharge and companion computerized All Charge deal strictly with 12v DC, so are never hooked to an AC onboard charger that operates in 120 v AC. The StaynCharge simply puts 12 v off the tow truck battrery/alternator directly to the All Charge, or bypassing that if you don't have it, to a battery of choice. With an All Charge you have leads to each battery, and it cycles charging between batteries every 5 minutes, tapering off as each approaches full charge. It's powered off the cranking battery, getting power from the tow truck or the outboard alternator. Once all are charged it monitors battery charge. I love my setup, getting much better battery performance than ever before.

Jim

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

Ben, an electrical engineer checked out our Boston Whalers where I work to find out why batteries were not lasting more than 6 months. He says lead cell batteries don't have a "linear" charge. The top 20% is the main surge part, while the bottom 80% just supports the top 20%. We were discharging way into the lower 80%, like down to 25% up from dead, and damaging the surge potential that holds up operating voltage. I don't really understand that part of it. Since all the cells are in series all work the same together, so unless a cell fails, the battery will continue to hold operating voltage down to that nonlinear 20% top of the heap charge. It's not accurate to assume you have a particular charge percent based on battery potential (voltage). Anyway, keeping batteries from dropping below about 11 volts keeps a battery 80% charged, and it doesn't take nearly as long to recharge from the outboard as the math says it will. The batteries are holding up longer in the long run, not becoming weaker like before going to this system. The reason, I believe, is the system keeps them from draining past that danger mark that puts you into a 5-10 hour recharge period at home at 6 amps, 12-14 hurs or more at 2 amps.

Jim

[reellittlephish]

Jim,

I know about the discharge curve on wet cells.  One of the reasons I'm running an AGM Optima as my cranking battery is the more liner discharge rate.  Based on your comments, I went back to the StayNCharge site and see the AllCharge has no provision for a direct on the box AC connect.  On the other hand it seems a Stealth system has both an AC connect like Dual Pro and Guest chargers as well as capacity to charge from a DC source in this case they talk about charging from the outboard's alternator.  Has anyone made a hybrid system using DC power from the tow vehicles alternator?

Using the AllCharge and a portable charger; if the first battery in the system is at 100% charge the AllCharge feedbacks a requirement which puts the portable charger into low amp maintenance mode.  At least I believe that's what he said.  I asked for clarification... and am waiting.  Has anyone experienced that?

Here's a typical scenario and why I am purchasing the StayNCharge.  Launched this morning at Boulder Harbor on Lake Mead after driving 40 minutes,  All batteries completely charged.  Motored over the Vegas, Government, Gypsum Washes to check out any surface striper action for a friend.  About 6 miles maybe 12 miles round trip and maybe 25 minutes on the Trolling Motor.  Out at 10:00 AM. drove home and went to bad.  Experience tells me TM batteries are OK for tomorrow's trip without recharging.  I'll take my friend fishing - probably 6 hours  tomorrow or until the wind drives us off the water.  After that I'll have to pull the TM batteries and charge them (2 - 10amp Schumacher portables) about 6 hours..  Based on a judgment of wind conditions, I'd like to just load the cooler and drive to Bullhead City in the evening and then to Needles ( 125 miles one way or 2 ½ hours) to fish Lake Havasu and Topock Marsh on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I figure with the StayNCharge I might be able to get away with NOT pulling the TM batteries- just top off the cranking battery and charge them on the drive off the Toyota's alternator. Now I don't expect the 2 Trojans to be fully charged in 2 or 3 hours of driving. What I'm looking for is just what Jim said about keeping the Trojans in that top 20% of the batteries charging capacity. If I got there and the TM batteries were low after a days fishing, then I'd want to be able to hook them up to an AC source a RV slot at some RV camp and bring them back to 100% overnight.

A note on wiring;  the Toyota does not have a tow package, so I will be running wire from the alternator probably # 4 AWG,  #2 AWG if I can find it to the StayNCharge.  You see, I already figured out I can use that.  Now should I get the AllCharge or some other on board alternator capable charger?

[Guest ouachitabassangler]

I have my onboard AC dual charger still connected like it came new, which I use on the road travelling. When I need an AC charge I use it away from home, but it goes to sleep faster (connected to the All Charge) than a separate Schumacher auto type charger in the garage which I plug onto the All Charge input posts. Those posts are also connected to the cranking battery, and to the StaynCharge wiring that goes to the tow vehicle battery. When towing, the truck charges the All Charge with 12 v DC, which acts like a distributor, switching between battery #1, then #2, then #3, each every 5 minutes. When on the water the outboard alternator powers the All Charge and cranking battery. It was me telling about the maintenance mode problem. I'm "Ouachita" there, moderator of the GPS forum. The charger is doing what it's supposed to do. I've tried several brands of maintenance type chargers and all do the same thing. I solved the problem by putting All Charge lead #1 to the battery that drains the fastest. My electronics battery had lead #1 earlier, which never runs down in one day, so it let the AC charger go to sleep before battery #2 got it's blast from the All Charge. For whatever reason, the AC charger stays charging even when it gets to battery #3 (electronics battery), and stays awake to begin another cycle charging on #1 again.

2 hours of driving would charge 100% even drained to 50%. Draining them that much is pretty bad, but the pickup alternator can do it. If you get the StaynCharge truck kit the wiring is provided along with a Y adapter in case you tow with a factory 40 amp truck system some day. I'd say get both StaynCharge and All Charge, both from the same company. The All Charge is computer chip controlled, monitoring charge and reducing current as needed to protect the batteries.

Jim