Do you fill up your spool?

[Team9nine]

We're "measurebating" now as J Francho likes to put it  but the diameter of the line on your spool (effective spool diameter) is related to the pressure exerted by the drag via torque. Spool width also comes into play here (say two identical reels. but one wide spool and one narrow spool version). The more line spooled on your reel, the more consistent the drag pressure will be. Also, you bring into play spool turning speed, though this is probably much less an issue with bass and bass gear - but you never know when you might unintentionally hook a big striper or catfish (LOL). Just how noticeable or important  eh

-T9 

[Further North]

Anyone ever calculate the different in IPT between a half full spool and a full spool?

To keep things simple, if we had a spool that was full at a diameter of 1", it would pick up line at the rate of 3.14" per revolution.

...if we had a partially full spool that was 3/4" in diameter, it would pick up line at the rate of 2.35" per revolution...a difference of .78" per revolution.

Multiply that times the ratio of the reel...let's use a nice round number like 7, again to keep things simple...that's 5.46" per handle crank.

Do we really think that makes much difference?

 

[j bab]

7 minutes ago, Further North said:

Do we really think that makes much difference?

 

No. We like to talk about stuff that doesn't make a colossal difference  imagine what the forums would look like if nobody discussed things that made very minor differences 

[Further North]

...that's what I thought.

...and I've found that most people don't like math much...

[WRB]

You can over fill a baitcasting reel with line. If the spool is too full the line interferes with the reel frame slowing down the spool. About 1/8" down from the spool outer edge is about right for most reels, considering the line in wound on tightly.

Tom

[KP Duty]

The answer is yes.  A full spool makes a man feel good.

[Advantage]

Was always taught to stop an 1/8th of inch from top of the spool too.

[J Francho]

14 hours ago, Team9nine said:

We're "measurebating" now as J Francho likes to put it  but the diameter of the line on your spool (effective spool diameter) is related to the pressure exerted by the drag via torque. Spool width also comes into play here (say two identical reels. but one wide spool and one narrow spool version). The more line spooled on your reel, the more consistent the drag pressure will be. Also, you bring into play spool turning speed, though this is probably much less an issue with bass and bass gear - but you never know when you might unintentionally hook a big striper or catfish (LOL). Just how noticeable or important  eh

-T9 

Since we are measurebating, I'll bite.  Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure.  A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move.  But if I employ a lever, I can move it.  It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter.  Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag?  Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.

Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible.  If there's a drag advantage, all the better.

And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol.  It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!

[A-Jay]

22 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Since we are measurebating, I'll bite.  Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure.  A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move.  But if I employ a lever, I can move it.  It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter.  Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag?  Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.

Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible.  If there's a drag advantage, all the better.

And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol.  It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!

Look at you making all kinds of sense at 9 AM ~

A-Jay

[fishballer06]

10 hours ago, Further North said:

Anyone ever calculate the different in IPT between a half full spool and a full spool?

To keep things simple, if we had a spool that was full at a diameter of 1", it would pick up line at the rate of 3.14" per revolution.

...if we had a partially full spool that was 3/4" in diameter, it would pick up line at the rate of 2.35" per revolution...a difference of .78" per revolution.

Multiply that times the ratio of the reel...let's use a nice round number like 7, again to keep things simple...that's 5.46" per handle crank.

Do we really think that makes much difference?

Does 5.46 inches of crank make a difference?

Well, 30 IPT is around what a standard 7:1 reel recovers per turn. 24.54 IPT is around what a standard 5:1 reel recovers.

Going one step further, a 120 foot cast with 30 IPT would take 48 cranks to retrieve. That same 120 foot cast with 24.54 IPT would take around 59 cranks to retrieve. 

[new2BC4bass]

7 hours ago, WRB said:

You can over fill a baitcasting reel with line. If the spool is too full the line interferes with the reel frame slowing down the spool. About 1/8" down from the spool outer edge is about right for most reels, considering the line in wound on tightly.

Tom

I have a reel like that.  It was even mentioned in a review not to fill it to the bevel because it then rubbed on the frame.

1 minute ago, fishballer06 said:

Does 5.46 inches of crank make a difference?

Well, 30 IPT is around what a standard 7:1 reel recovers per turn. 24.54 IPT is around what a standard 5:1 reel recovers.

Going one step further, a 120 foot cast with 30 IPT would take 48 cranks to retrieve. That same 120 foot cast with 24.54 IPT would take around 59 cranks to retrieve. 

You beat me to it.  That is a big difference to many people.  How much on the water I couldn't say.  I will say I am coming to like faster ratios for most of my fishing even if it is mostly all in my head. 

[WRB]

9 minutes ago, new2BC4bass said:

I have a reel like that.  It was even mentioned in a review not to fill it to the bevel because it then rubbed on the frame.

You beat me to it.  That is a big difference to many people.  How much on the water I couldn't say.  I will say I am coming to like faster ratios for most of my fishing even if it is mostly all in my head. 

What you have over looked is a 120' or 40 yard cast reduces the IPT on 100 and 200 size reels from 30" to approx 18" at the end of the cast and increases as the line is wound back onto the spool. 

You can test the IPT by marking the line at the rod tip with a sharpie pen, crank the handle 1 turn and make a second mark then measure the actual IPT at whatever spool fill you desire; your full spool and at whatever casting distance is normal for you. I did this several years ago and based on actual IPT changed to 8: 1 gear ratio's on my 100 size reels.

Tom

[fissure_man]

44 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Since we are measurebating, I'll bite.  Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure.  A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move.  But if I employ a lever, I can move it.  It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter.  Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag?  Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.

Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible.  If there's a drag advantage, all the better.

And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol.  It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!

Measurebating!

Drag consistency:

With a full spool, there is less proportional change in “effective” spool diameter at the end of a long cast vs. the beginning.  Say your full spool cast peels out enough line that your effective spool diameter is decreased by 1/8” when the bait lands, say 15% reduction.  The same length cast with a half empty spool will cause a greater actual reduction in diameter (because the circumference is less – less line per revolution), and a greater proportional reduction in diameter (because the actual reduction is greater, and the “effective” diameter is less to begin with).  The more consistent “effective” spool diameter with a full spool means that drag performance is also more consistent, because it is directly related to the spool shaft torque developed at a given line tension.

Drag smoothness:

If there's a difference in smoothness, it could be because a fully spooled reel will require greater pressure at the washers to achieve the same breakout tension (your drag is essentially weakened).  If there's a "sweet spot," in the drag, maybe a fuller spool tends to move the slip point toward it.  Many variables here.

Regarding differences in wear - the fuller spool will turn fewer times to pay out the same length of line, but the friction in the washers to achieve the same drag resistance is higher... It's probably a wash

[Team9nine]

10 hours ago, Further North said:

Anyone ever calculate the different in IPT between a half full spool and a full spool?

To keep things simple, if we had a spool that was full at a diameter of 1", it would pick up line at the rate of 3.14" per revolution.

...if we had a partially full spool that was 3/4" in diameter, it would pick up line at the rate of 2.35" per revolution...a difference of .78" per revolution.

Multiply that times the ratio of the reel...let's use a nice round number like 7, again to keep things simple...that's 5.46" per handle crank.

Do we really think that makes much difference?

fishballer06 got it, but yes, it makes a difference in several areas.

 

44 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Since we are measurebating, I'll bite.  Look at it this way, and I might even be proving your point, but I'm not sure.  A 500 lb. rock is impossible for me to move.  But if I employ a lever, I can move it.  It's still weighs 500 lbs. - it didn't get any lighter.  Is this the idea behind the larger spool having a smoother drag?  Because if a drag is set to 5 lbs. of resistance, it's always 5 lbs., assuming heat or wear doesn't degrade that number.

Personally, I don't know why companies aren't designing reels with wider, shallower spools that retain as much as their max IPT as possible.  If there's a drag advantage, all the better.

And yeah, if you're not inclined to discuss this stuff, don't comment with "go fishing, morons!," lol.  It snowed here yesterday...cabin fever....must get out!

So yes, if a drag is set at 5lbs for however much line you have on your spool, then you will have 5 pounds of pressure. However, the minute you make a cast and line comes off your spool, you no longer have 5 lbs of pressure. You now have more than that because the effective spool diameter has decreased.

It is similar to the amount of force it takes to open/close a door at the middle of the door vs the end of the door. The door hinges and pressure haven't changed, but it's always easier and smoother from the end - more and easier control. As line spool diameter decreases, the amount of drag goes up because you are now pulling off line from closer to the center of the spool (keeping in mind you set the drag with a full spool).

The angler who overfills a spool, will have a smaller overall decrease in spool diameter for any given line length out because one revolution of his spool will encompass more line than someone with an underfilled spool.. See fishballer06's calculations for an example. As such, he will have less variation in drag pressure across a range of line lengths, and have better overall drag control.

NOTE: After typing all this up, I see fissure_man has beat me to the explanation. Maybe one of our two examples will make sense

8 minutes ago, fishballer06 said:

Does 5.46 inches of crank make a difference?

Well, 30 IPT is around what a standard 7:1 reel recovers per turn. 24.54 IPT is around what a standard 5:1 reel recovers.

Going one step further, a 120 foot cast with 30 IPT would take 48 cranks to retrieve. That same 120 foot cast with 24.54 IPT would take around 59 cranks to retrieve. 

BINGO - underfilling vs overfilling basically changes the effective gear ratio of the reel, and this will occur over all lengths of casts as Tom points out.

-T9  

[J Francho]

6 minutes ago, fissure_man said:

If there's a difference in smoothness, it could be because a fully spooled reel will require greater pressure at the washers to achieve the same breakout tension (your drag is essentially weakened).  If there's a "sweet spot," in the drag, maybe a fuller spool tends to move the slip point toward it.  Many variables here.

I agree there are many variables, but drag pressure is not one that changes with spool diameter.

It does not make sense.  You can't change drag pressure by changing spool diameter.  The ONLY thing that changes that is star drag adjustments.  If you want to talk torque required to get the spool to slip, maybe we're on to something.  I'm not quite clear on the physics - specifically how to describe a class III lever as it applies to a rod, reel, line and drag....

I'll just take it for granted that the drag is "smoother," or operates optimally with a full spool.

[fissure_man]

3 minutes ago, J Francho said:

I agree there are many variables, but drag pressure is not one that changes with spool diameter.

Disagree, at least if you are setting your drag to achieve slippage at the same line tension. 

Seasonal example: You're putting on your snow tires.  If you took one lug off with a 6" wrench, and another with a 24" breaker bar, and they both slipped with the same force at the end of the wrench, were they equally tight?

With a full spool, it takes more pressure at the washers to achieve the same drag resistance, due to increased torque.

[WRB]

Line pressure does affect the amount of line wound onto the bait casting reel spool. If the line is loosely wound on the diameter of line on the spool increases. When you make a cast the line loosens due to centrifical force, that is why your thumb is so important during a cast to keep the line from springing off the spool.

When you spool new line onto a reel it will not be very tight because it's dry and depends on how much pressure you apply as you wind on line. As you fish with the reel the line usually tightens up, reducing the diameter of spooled line about 1/16" on most bait casting reels and need to take that into consideration when respooling reels.

Keeping the line tightly wound onto the spool is another reason to run the line over the index finger and under the thumb, the slight pressure applied not only gives you instant feedback what a lure is doing, it help to keep spooled line tight.

Tom

[J Francho]

17 minutes ago, fissure_man said:

Seasonal example: You're putting on your snow tires.  If you took one lug off with a 6" wrench, and another with a 24" breaker bar, and they both slipped with the same force at the end of the wrench, were they equally tight?

If you tightened a lug to 75 ft-lbs. then it would take that same amount of torque to remove the lug.  It would get easier as the length of the wrench increases.  It doesn't change the how tight the the lug was.  See me 500 lb. boulder example, above.  I think that leverage comparison is where spool size comes - and me ultimately "argue-reeing" with you.

Might have to do a little experiment tonight.  My 9-yo might get a kick out of sciencing the crap out of this in my kitchen.

 

[Team9nine]

16 minutes ago, J Francho said:

Might have to do a little experiment tonight.  My 9-yo might get a kick out of sciencing the crap out of this in my kitchen.

 

I think the terminology might be getting in the way of understanding , but you can do a couple easy experiments with the kid to see what we're trying to explain.

Here's a simple test you can do with a reel with no line on it.

Set the drag at whatever moderate setting you wish. Make sure though when its set you can slip drag by simply applying pressure with one finger to the outermost rim of the spool. Now take your finger and move to the inside edge (where you'd tie your line) of the spool near the axis and try to slip the drag again. Either it will take much more force to rotate the spool or your finger will slip and the spool will not turn. This is similar to the door experiment I mentioned.

Another test.

Fill that same empty reel full of cheap line. Set the drag using a scale to what you would typically do if going fishing. Now peel off half or more of that line from the spool (for effect), reconnect the scale to the line, and test again. Don't touch the original start drag or setting. You should see that it now takes a little more force to get that drag working at the same setting compared to your original full spool setting.

-T9 

[WRB]

Archimedes lever applies to bait casting reel drag washers. A full spool acts like a longer lever arm verses a smaller spooled line diameter. With today's high end drag disks and very smooth materials the drags can be finely adjusted to nearly eliminate the lever affect. Single smaller disk surface areas of some reels the lever affect is more noticeable with amount of line spooled.

Tom

[J Francho]

23 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

Fill that same empty reel full of cheap line. Set the drag using a scale to what you would typically do if going fishing. Now peel off half or more of that line from the spool (for effect), reconnect the scale to the line, and test again. Don't touch the original start drag or setting. You should see that it now takes a little more force to get that drag working at the same setting compared to your original full spool setting.

That's what we're gonna do tonight.  I have a feeling the full spool measurement will be less than the not full spool.

17 hours ago, Catt said:

Chamfer

There's a balm for chamfer'd bottoms.

[A-Jay]

1 minute ago, WRB said:

Archimedes lever applies to bait casting reel drag washers. A full spool acts like a longer lever arm verses a smaller spooled line diameter. With today's high end multiple drag disks and very smooth materials the drags can be finely adjusted to nearly eliminate the lever affect. Single smaller disk surface areas of some reels the lever affect is more noticeable with amount of line spooled.

Tom

Agreed ~  A relatable example of this is when fighting larger, long & hard running game fish (I'm speaking of saltwater here - tuna, bill fish etc) when a fish is taking most of the spool on a super long run, it's common practice to back off the drag.  As the line left on the spool decreases the diameter size, the drag pressure definitely increases so if it was initially set at say 50 pounds of drag at the start with a full spool - with less than half a spool left there is considerable more than that being applied.

I will also say that in the vast majority of Bass fishing applications, the IPT issue is something I'd address well ahead of drag pressure.

A-Jay

[J Francho]

Just now, A-Jay said:

I will also say that in the vast majority of Bass fishing applications, the IPT issue is something I'd address well ahead of drag pressure.

Agreed!  Still fun to do some science with the kid.  I really want to see if the difference is negligible or not.

[Subaqua Adinterim]

Coincidentally, I just read the October issue of Sport Fishing magazine that I signed out a few days ago from the local library.  The article on pages 14 - 20, titled Drag Kings, discusses in detail the drag systems on reels.  

A quote from Chris Littau, manager of product and technology strategy at Zebco is from the article. " Reel drag systems are governed by the torque equation (torque  = force x radius).  In the case of reels, the radius is actually the distance from the center of the spool to where the line exits.  This explains why the more line there is on the spool, the less drag you exert.  All else being equal, if the diameter on the spool is reduced to half, then the line tension would double."

Keep in mind this is a salt water fishing magazine,so the reels they discuss are somewhat larger than what is used for freshwater applications, however, the same principles still apply although to a much smaller degree when discussing bass reels.

I'm not an engineer or scientist, however, this article was very informative in regards to how various manufacturers are improving the drags systems on reels.

[WRB]

Off shore big game fish reels are a different breed of cat then fresh water bass reels. Fresh water bass aren't fast fish or long running hard fighting fish like Bill fish, tuna or wahoo/Ono. Fresh water reels have level winds, off shore reels don't don't because they can fail. The angler is the level and must learn to keep the spooled line even so it doesn't pile up on the ends or in the middle of the spool.

When a fish can swim 40-60 mph coeffient of line drag in the water adds several pounds of pressure on the fish when dragging a few hundred yards of line for hours instead of a few minutes. For that reason the angler needs to be aware of drag forces, both the reels disks and the line drag and make adjustments using a lever drag mechanisms, in lieu of the star drag wheel used for fresh water conventional reels.

Off topic but It's a different world on the high seas.

Tom