Building a ned rig rod-my take

[MickD]

The right rod for the ned rig is a lighter power and slower action than the usual finesse rod in order to cast the light jigs well and to be sort of "forgiving" while fighting fish on the light wire hooks.  It should be as sensitive as possible, of course.  This last requirement leads to micro guides to make the tip as light as possible.  I think I've found an ideal blank, but there are many more suitable ones of other makes, I'm sure.

The Rainshadow Imortal IMMWS72ML-TC my favorite.  It is called a "walleye rod" by Rainshadow.  It weighs 1.7 oz, is rated for 1/8-3/8 lures, but loads fine with the 1/10 ned jigs.  It also handles the new heavier, larger neds well.  Its action is called "fast."  I measured it at 65 degrees (CCS action angle), which is more moderate than most blanks called "fast."  Bottom line, it appears perfect for this technique.  I found the power to be 190 grams on my rig.  

An Amtak Aero seat, up-locking, and carbon fiber ramps and butt knob were used.

I used the Microwave guides, but the Fuji KLH setup would work just as well, in my opinion, and would give an even lighter tip.

In my opinion, a blank with these characteristics is perfect for the ned, especially in open water where horsing a bass out of weeds is not an issue.  Of course horsing isn't going to work well with any blank with the light wire jigs of the original ned.

[.ghoti.]

I built a rod for Kent on this blank. Uplocking Aero seat, with a Fuji KDPS hood to hide the threads, and Microwave guides. Great minds think alike, eh?

Also built a casting rod for myself on this blank. ACS seat, full length Winn rear grip, no fore grip, spiral wrapped Recoil guides. I use it for Ned rigs, and any other finesse plastic work.

Very nice blank.

[roadwarrior]

Great rod, you will like it, too!

 

[MickD]

2 hours ago, .ghoti. said:

I built a rod for Kent on this blank. Uplocking Aero seat, with a Fuji KDPS hood to hide the threads, and Microwave guides. Great minds think alike, eh?

Also built a casting rod for myself on this blank. ACS seat, full length Winn rear grip, no fore grip, spiral wrapped Recoil guides. I use it for Ned rigs, and any other finesse plastic work.

Very nice blank.

I cannot cast lures as light as the ned on a casting rod.  With the aero up locking there is that big ramp off the "front," which doesn't show well in my photo.  It's carbon fiber, so it contributes to the sensitivity, is very comfortable, and beautiful in the sun.

[Molay1292]

Curious as to why you feel sensitivity is a key element to fishing the Ned Rig successfully?

 

[timsford]

Sensitivity is key to any bottom contact technique Imo if you want to put together patterns and have more successful days on the water. It helps to feel light bites but it's also important to know the bottom composition and sensitivity of the rod really helps to know if you are fishing pea gravel or chunk rock. If you run into fish in a certain type of bottom, more than likely they will be concentrated in other areas that are similar. 

[Molay1292]

8 minutes ago, timsford said:

Sensitivity is key to any bottom contact technique Imo if you want to put together patterns and have more successful days on the water. It helps to feel light bites but it's also important to know the bottom composition and sensitivity of the rod really helps to know if you are fishing pea gravel or chunk rock. If you run into fish in a certain type of bottom, more than likely they will be concentrated in other areas that are similar. 

Thanks for sharing,  have you read anything that Ned Kahde has to say about the Midwest Finesse Technique and the 6 basic retrieves?

 

[.ghoti.]

10 hours ago, MickD said:

I cannot cast lures as light as the ned on a casting rod.  With the aero up locking there is that big ramp off the "front," which doesn't show well in my photo.  It's carbon fiber, so it contributes to the sensitivity, is very comfortable, and beautiful in the sun.

Check out this piece Mick. If you turn it down a bit, it will slip right into the aero seat.

http://www.anglersworkshop.com/Cast-Spin/Split-Grip-Fore-Grips-with-Finger-Cut-Out

Casting light baits requires that every piece of the puzzle is in balance. In this case it's rod I mentioned,  a JDM Daiwa SS SV, and 6lb test Invisx line.

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

4 hours ago, timsford said:

Sensitivity is key to any bottom contact technique Imo if you want to put together patterns and have more successful days on the water. It helps to feel light bites but it's also important to know the bottom composition and sensitivity of the rod really helps to know if you are fishing pea gravel or chunk rock. If you run into fish in a certain type of bottom, more than likely they will be concentrated in other areas that are similar. 

 

4 hours ago, Molay1292 said:

Thanks for sharing,  have you read anything that Ned Kahde has to say about the Midwest Finesse Technique and the 6 basic retrieves?

 

Seems like timsford is using the drag technique that  Ned talks about.

[Molay1292]

1 hour ago, QUAKEnSHAKE said:

 

Seems like timsford is using the drag technique that  Ned talks about.

Could be....  this is why I asked the question regarding rod sensitivity.

" The most important feature of the six retrieves revolves around the concept that we call no-feel. That means we cannot feel what the jig-and-soft-plastic combo is doing or where it is during the retrieve. This is the antithesis of the way power anglers experience their retrieves. Often newcomers to Midwest finesse tactics find the no-feel retrieve to be so disconcerting that they quickly give up and resort to using what we call power finesse tactics. In order to feel their baits, power finesse anglers work with 1/8-, 3/16-, and 1/4 –ounce jigs."

Read more: http://www.in-fisherman.com/midwest-finesse/six-midwest-finesse-retrieves/#ixzz4KUCOdfZN

[timsford]

Ned may not worry about feeling,  but I do. Whether I'm dragging a football jig,  hopping a Texas rig,  shaking a dropshot,  or working a bait on a split shot, ned rig, shakyhead,  or even digging crankbaits into rocks and the bottom sensitivity matters to me.  As I said feeling light bites is important,  but knowing whether bass are relating to pea gravel or chunk rock,  sand or mud helps to establish a pattern of where the fish are located. It doesn't matter if it's a 10 inch worm or a ned rig, feeling what's going on helps tremendously. The difference between most weekend anglers and the pros most would love to be is putting together patterns instead of heading to your "favorite spot" and blindly chucking and winding at any visible cover. 

Sorry op that the thread got off topic.  That's a nice looking rod.  I've been using a St croix ml for the Ned,  but I'm thinking of maybe getting a light action St croix built since they are a little stiffer than rated IMO. 

[MickD]

9 hours ago, .ghoti. said:

Check out this piece Mick. If you turn it down a bit, it will slip right into the aero seat.

http://www.anglersworkshop.com/Cast-Spin/Split-Grip-Fore-Grips-with-Finger-Cut-Out

Casting light baits requires that every piece of the puzzle is in balance. In this case it's rod I mentioned,  a JDM Daiwa SS SV, and 6lb test Invisx line.

Thanks, appreciate your suggestion. I personally don't care for finger notches, though.  I don't like the looks of them, and like the feel of smooth, even, conical or "curved conical" ramps.  Just a personal preference.

7 hours ago, Molay1292 said:

Could be....  this is why I asked the question regarding rod sensitivity.

" The most important feature of the six retrieves revolves around the concept that we call no-feel. That means we cannot feel what the jig-and-soft-plastic combo is doing or where it is during the retrieve. This is the antithesis of the way power anglers experience their retrieves. Often newcomers to Midwest finesse tactics find the no-feel retrieve to be so disconcerting that they quickly give up and resort to using what we call power finesse tactics. In order to feel their baits, power finesse anglers work with 1/8-, 3/16-, and 1/4 –ounce jigs."

Read more: http://www.in-fisherman.com/midwest-finesse/six-midwest-finesse-retrieves/#ixzz4KUCOdfZN

Thanks for the link. I had not seen it before, and had not heard of the "no feel" concept.  I do, however, do most of the retrieves describeds.  Don't usually shake the rod, though, will try more of it.   What I don't get is why it's called no-feel. If you don't feel anything you don't know, most of the time, if a fish has taken the lure.  If you really want "no feel," try these retrieves with an old model Ugly Stick and report back.  No offense intended, and I'm not doubting the effectiveness, but just don't get why it's called "no feel."

[Team9nine]

3 hours ago, MickD said:

Thanks, appreciate your suggestion. I personally don't care for finger notches, though.  I don't like the looks of them, and like the feel of smooth, even, conical or "curved conical" ramps.  Just a personal preference.

Thanks for the link. I had not seen it before, and had not heard of the "no feel" concept.  I do, however, do most of the retrieves describeds.  Don't usually shake the rod, though, will try more of it.   What I don't get is why it's called no-feel. If you don't feel anything you don't know, most of the time, if a fish has taken the lure.  If you really want "no feel," try these retrieves with an old model Ugly Stick and report back.  No offense intended, and I'm not doubting the effectiveness, but just don't get why it's called "no feel."

Using an old Ugly Stick works perfectly fine with the technique, and is why Ned himself uses and prefers $20 cheapo bargain bin graphite composite rods (from Shakespeare). "No feel" is a pretty self explanatory term. Keep in mind the majority of the retrieves are performed with the lure off bottom where you want your rig to perform and swim along more like a neutrally buoyant jerkbait or a weightless wacky rig than a Carolina rig  Many bites you will still feel regardless, but many others will simply be your line moving off or your rod starting to load a bit more than normal (think spider-rigging crappie). "Feel" in the traditional sense is over-rated with this technique, and more a matter of personal preference. Yes, it works, but no better than the traditionalists.

-T9 

[Molay1292]

12 hours ago, timsford said:

Ned may not worry about feeling,  but I do. Whether I'm dragging a football jig,  hopping a Texas rig,  shaking a dropshot,  or working a bait on a split shot, ned rig, shakyhead,  or even digging crankbaits into rocks and the bottom sensitivity matters to me.  As I said feeling light bites is important,  but knowing whether bass are relating to pea gravel or chunk rock,  sand or mud helps to establish a pattern of where the fish are located. It doesn't matter if it's a 10 inch worm or a ned rig, feeling what's going on helps tremendously. The difference between most weekend anglers and the pros most would love to be is putting together patterns instead of heading to your "favorite spot" and blindly chucking and winding at any visible cover. 

Sorry op that the thread got off topic.  That's a nice looking rod.  I've been using a St croix ml for the Ned,  but I'm thinking of maybe getting a light action St croix built since they are a little stiffer than rated IMO. 

I don't disagree with you, I just happen to follow Ned Kahde and was aware of his philosophy regarding the Ned Rig.   I goes against much of what most of us have learned but still is very effective.   I was just interested in the OP(and your)thoughts regarding sensitivity and the Ned Rig in particular.     When you see or hear of Ned catching fish at an amazing rate, it often makes me question my purchases of NRX and Legend Elite spinning rods.

[Molay1292]

6 hours ago, MickD said:

Thanks, appreciate your suggestion. I personally don't care for finger notches, though.  I don't like the looks of them, and like the feel of smooth, even, conical or "curved conical" ramps.  Just a personal preference.

Thanks for the link. I had not seen it before, and had not heard of the "no feel" concept.  I do, however, do most of the retrieves describeds.  Don't usually shake the rod, though, will try more of it.   What I don't get is why it's called no-feel. If you don't feel anything you don't know, most of the time, if a fish has taken the lure.  If you really want "no feel," try these retrieves with an old model Ugly Stick and report back.  No offense intended, and I'm not doubting the effectiveness, but just don't get why it's called "no feel."

Most definitely no offense taken, I asked for your thoughts.   My understanding of the term "no feel" is that it primarily applies to the method in which the Ned Rig is fished, in that it is not a true contact bait.   I use to feel that I was probably missing fish, but after having a couple of 100 fish plus days I found it hard to believe I was missing many.  

Glad you checked out the link. Sorry to take things off track a bit, and I do like your new rod.

[Hogsticker]

200 grams of power sounds about right for this presentation, depending on how heavy the lead is of course. I'd prefer a little slower TA though. Something around 62 degrees. Another good blank for this technique is the Mhx high mod popping blanks in both the medium and medium light flavors. They load up very well with light baits. 

[.ghoti.]

On September 17, 2016 at 7:27 AM, MickD said:

Thanks, appreciate your suggestion. I personally don't care for finger notches, though.  I don't like the looks of them, and like the feel of smooth, even, conical or "curved conical" ramps.  Just a personal preference

I like the look of your carbon fiber ramps. That would be something I need to look into. I also like your ramps made from foam arbors. Super light, almost too easy to form, and can be finished any way one can conceive. Those are a great idea of yours, that I have been playing with.

I'm also playing with acrylics for ramps, trim pieces and checks. Discovered afew things so far about acrylics. The stuff is difficult to bore without chipping or blowing up. A face shield is mandatory. And you need to work slowly, taking off very little material, with almost shaving sharp tools. I'm starting to get the hang of it.

About those finger cut-out pieces: the two rods I've built with them were well received by the guys that got them. Both really liked that cut-out.

The Fuji KDPS hood, when used on an uplocking Aero seat makes a very comfortable grip. A few threads need to be trimmed from the seat, but with a reel mounted, no threads are exposed to irritate the hands. 

[MickD]

30 minutes ago, .ghoti. said:

I like the look of your carbon fiber ramps. That would be something I need to look into. I also like your ramps made from foam arbors. Super light, almost too easy to form, and can be finished any way one can conceive. Those are a great idea of yours, that I have been playing with.

I'm also playing with acrylics for ramps, trim pieces and checks. Discovered afew things so far about acrylics. The stuff is difficult to bore without chipping or blowing up. A face shield is mandatory. And you need to work slowly, taking off very little material, with almost shaving sharp tools. I'm starting to get the hang of it.

About those finger cut-out pieces: the two rods I've built with them were well received by the guys that got them. Both really liked that cut-out.

The Fuji KDPS hood, when used on an uplocking Aero seat makes a very comfortable grip. A few threads need to be trimmed from the seat, but with a reel mounted, no threads are exposed to irritate the hands. 

I appreciate your comments.  Speaking of the foam ramps, I started that quite a few years ago and have had only one problem.  On one rod I didn't totally fill the gap between the front of  a foam ramp and the blank, and it crushed in.  On every single other rod the ramps, exc for the yellowing of the finish on light colors,  look like new.  I've never done a butt knob  that way, just covering the foam with wrap epoxy, but since I've had no trouble with them when I've done them right, I think I'm going to try one.  It would provide a match between the reel seat ramps and the butt knob.  I don't use rod holders on my rods, and they don't get carried around in the backs of pickup trucks.

Another thing I have tried that shows really good promise is covering exotic burl cork ramps and butt knobs with wrap epoxy.  It brings out the "grain," is of course glossy, and looks stunning.  I did it twice about 7 years ago on a couple rods that had special problems, and they still look like new.  Some may think they are losing the "feel" of cork, and maybe they are.  But I don't think cork feels all that special, and hard, smooth, surfaces feel great to me (like carbon fiber).  It also stays looking good indefinitely.  

Again, I appreciate your comments, always.