Thinking of upgrading from 25 hp motor

[Ratherbfishing]

I currently have a 25 horse two-stroke Evinrude which has a difficult time getting my boat on plane-especially if there is a big boy (my friend) on board.  (My boat is a 17.5 foot aluminum).  If/when it does get on plane, it must run nearly "all out" to keep it on plane.  I've heard that the harder a motor has to work (near the top of it's output), the less efficient it is. From what I've observed (with this motor and a few rental boats I've used), this seems to hold true.  Is this the case with modern 4 stroke outboards?  Also, I really would prefer it to be a tiller steer but I don't know when this becomes less feasible and/or when they stop making them as "tillers."  I don't really want a "gargantuan" motor.  Speed is not my primary objective.  But I would like to have one do want one that doesn't have to kill itself to get on plane and can cruise "comfortably" without going at full throttle.  Any words of advice are appreciated.

Also, I've never bought new before.  Do dealers negotiate prices (like automobiles) or are they pretty firm?

 

[Wayne P.]

What HP is the boat rated for????

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=largest+tiller+steer+outboard&view=detail&mid=23CD65516BEE485572C723CD65516BEE485572C7&FORM=VIRE

[riverbasser]

as Wayne said you need to look an see what your boat is rated for. should be a data plate on transom that shows the max HP rating for your boat. once we know this info we can help picking. just guessing but most 17ft boats should hold atleast a 40horse but this is just a guess without seeing your boat and knowing its rating

[Catt]

I'm currently running a Alweld 1652VJT with a 2014 Tohatsu 40 HP 4 stroke. This boat is very heavy for a 16 footer & it runs 50 mph (radar gun).

One thing I will say ya need to add is a set of Nauticus SX Smart Tabs!

[Ratherbfishing]

4 hours ago, Wayne P. said:

What HP is the boat rated for????

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=largest+tiller+steer+outboard&view=detail&mid=23CD65516BEE485572C723CD65516BEE485572C7&FORM=VIRE

I'll get back to you on this.  The transom is pretty thick, though, if that is any indication.  

Holy cow, didn't know tiller steers could run that big!  Trust me, I don't want to go nearly as fast as boat on video.  Forget my boat!  My HEART couldn't take it.

[fishnkamp]

I would expect that boat will take a 50 hp and there are lots of 2 and 4 stroke outboards that come in tiller versions. Again check the metal tag on the boat that Coast Guard Data tag will tell you what the boat was designed to carry.

[Kevin22]

On July 5, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Ratherbfishing said:

I'll get back to you on this.  The transom is pretty thick, though, if that is any indication.  

Holy cow, didn't know tiller steers could run that big!  Trust me, I don't want to go nearly as fast as boat on video.  Forget my boat!  My HEART couldn't take it.

No indication what so ever. You need to find the plate and see how big you can go. Going over the uscg hp limit is a severe violation and is cause for seizure of watercraft. In other words, if caught you will lose your boat.

[Way2slow]

Maybe where you live but that's not the case in all inland waterways.  You have to check your state laws and any special restrictions certain bodies of water may have.  In GA, you can run a 250 on a canoe if you wanted to.  Over powering a hull can lead to problems with insurance and some areas have pretty steep fines for it, but it's not chiseled in stone as being illegal, that just depends on where you live and where you are planning on using it.  Most of the boats I've ever owned have been over powered to some degree.  My 1436 jon is rated for a 15, a lot of times I'm running a 25 on it.  My Javelin it rated for 245hp, I run 325

[fishnkamp]

Installing an engine that has a horsepower above the rating on the boat is dangerous for you to do. You may have to accept the consequences at some time!  Suggesting someone else do that here is not acceptable! We all freely give our opinions and things we have learned from experience, but should never encourage someone else to do something we know to be dangerous. 

[Ratherbfishing]

I WILL check the jackplate for the horsepower limitation but I don't anticpate going over 35 hp, in any even.

[Way2slow]

First off, I was just making the point that over powering one probably was not going the get his boat confiscated or suffer serious fines for doing it, he would have to check the laws of the state he lived in and the areas he was going to fish. 

I was not suggesting he overpower his, but I also don't get on the Oh, it's do dangerous soap box if it's legal where he want's to, and  if a person want's to in a reasonable manner.  Yes, there are possible legal issues that can come up if one happens to have an accident in a boat that is not 100% legal, but lawyers are going to have a field day, legal or not if involved in an accident.   If  I had a boat that's rated for say a 40hp motor and was wanting to upgrade from a 25hp motor.  Now, I find two different motors, ones a 35hp that's in so-so condition and another is a 50hp in great condition for almost the same price and both similar in weight and size of the 40.  Me, I would jump all over that 50 and never think twice about it.   Many 40's are nothing but detuned 50's anyway.

After all, a lot of the motors you used to buy overpowered the boat right from the factory to get that little performance edge on other brands.  There's a whole bunch of 200hp Johnsons running around that are nothing but 225, with 200 decals on them from the factory.   The 225HO is a 250 Johnson played with the numbers on so they could call it a 225.  Mercury did the same thing.  Several of the Japanese companies have done it. 

[Kevin22]

5 hours ago, Way2slow said:

Maybe where you live but that's not the case in all inland waterways.  You have to check your state laws and any special restrictions certain bodies of water may have.  In GA, you can run a 250 on a canoe if you wanted to.  Over powering a hull can lead to problems with insurance and some areas have pretty steep fines for it, but it's not chiseled in stone as being illegal, that just depends on where you live and where you are planning on using it.  Most of the boats I've ever owned have been over powered to some degree.  My 1436 jon is rated for a 15, a lot of times I'm running a 25 on it.  My Javelin it rated for 245hp, I run 325

Yeah, it is where I live. As its a UNITED STATES COAST GUARD LAW. That trumps all state laws. You are breaking the law, even in Georgia. If you are ever checked by a federal USFW officer or a coast guard water patrol officer you will lose your rigs. I have met USFW officers in some of the most remote spots of Iowa so don't think you will never see one. 

28 minutes ago, Way2slow said:

 

After all, a lot of the motors you used to buy overpowered the boat right from the factory to get that little performance edge on other brands.  There's a whole bunch of 200hp Johnsons running around that are nothing but 225, with 200 decals on them from the factory.   The 225HO is a 250 Johnson played with the numbers on so they could call it a 225.  Mercury did the same thing.  Several of the Japanese companies have done it. 

That is not true. They maybe 250 power heads, but they are factory detuned to within legal HP (5% I think???). My current 90 is a 115 motor that is detuned in the ECM to be 91HP.  

Also, don't suggest the changing stickers or cowls. We had a big sting on a local lake about 10 years ago where the USFW along with the local wardens checked every boat on the lake. They ran serial #'s and found lots of 150-200's marked as 75-115's and all of them were seized if operating or ticketed if "docked" at the lake. The feds take it very seriously as it is dangerous to everyone on the water, not just you. 

[S. Sass]

Not saying there isn't some truth to what your saying but looking at what you just claimed as a "whole bunch" I would say that was probably a dedicated raid based on a problem area. Probably had to many accidents or reported issues. 

I haven't seen anywhere near a whole bunch of engines/boats done this way here. Possibly a Jon boat here or there with a 5 or 10 HP over but the bass boats glass and aluminium are from the best I can tell are legal. 

Don't get me wrong I'm sure there is one here but I don't see a reason as most are nice boats and buying the right engine doesn't seem to be a issue.

[Catt]

From the USCG site:
It is not a violation of Coast Guard regulations to install or use an engine larger than specified on the capacity label, but there may be state regulations prohibiting it, and restrictions from your own insurance company regarding this.
There are no Coast Guard regulations against exceeding the safe loading capacity, however, there may be State regulations or restrictions from your insurance company which prohibit this. There is a Coast Guard regulation that gives Coast Guard Boarding Officers the power to terminate the use of a boat (send it back to shore) if, in the judgment of the Boarding Officer, the boat is overloaded. There is no fine for this, unless the operator refuses the Boarding Officer's order. We certainly hope that you will abide by the rating, as overloading may lead to capsizing or swamping of the boat.
NOTE: The Coast Guard Capacity Information label is required only on monohull boats less than 20' in length. The label is not required on multi-hull boats, pontoon boats (catamarans), or on any sailboats, canoes, kayaks, or inflatable boats, regardless of length.

[Kevin22]

Catt, where did you find that? There's probably a dozen people locally who would love to get their $25,000 rigs back from the feds if that is true. Everything past the first sentence is about maximum persons and is moot. 

13 hours ago, S. Sass said:

Not saying there isn't some truth to what your saying but looking at what you just claimed as a "whole bunch" I would say that was probably a dedicated raid based on a problem area. Probably had to many accidents or reported issues. 

I haven't seen anywhere near a whole bunch of engines/boats done this way here. Possibly a Jon boat here or there with a 5 or 10 HP over but the bass boats glass and aluminium are from the best I can tell are legal. 

Don't get me wrong I'm sure there is one here but I don't see a reason as most are nice boats and buying the right engine doesn't seem to be a issue.

It is a USFW managed hunting lake. Guys were putting large outboards on duck blinds so they could race to the good spots at the midnight run (can't leave dock until 12:00 am). 

[Way2slow]

After going to the emergency room for 12 stiches in a finger on one hand and 6 stitches on the other hand typing is a problem so I suggest just getting back on topic for the OP.  It's useless to try and discuss something with someone that thinks they are right.

More speed us not the always the reason for going with a larger motor.  It takes torque to get the boat up and on plane.  It takes more CC/CI's to make torque, and it takes a bigger motor to have more CC's.  So, if you go with another motor, you want to look at what CC it is way more so than what HP it is, and get one noticeably larger than your 25.  If you were just wanting more speed, then you look for the most HP with the best power to weight ratio.   I can show you a jon boat running a modified three cylinder Johnson (about 200hp @ 10,000 rpm) that will run 78mph, but struggles to get on plane with just a few gallons of gas and pilot.  I say pilot because the way that thing runs, he's flying it instead of driving it.

Propping a small motor down a lot doesn't work that well because then you just have a barge. or if it does get on plane. the motor may over rev at WOT

[Catt]

4 hours ago, Kevin22 said:

Catt, where did you find that? There's probably a dozen people locally who would love to get their $25,000 rigs back from the feds if that is true. 

I texted my friend who is a Chief Warrant Officer USCG Maritime Law Enforcement Specialist

[fishnkamp]

Price shop for sure also look at something like this http://sportfishermans-service.com/1991-evinrude-40hp-tiller/

[Catt]

On 7/7/2016 at 5:21 PM, Ratherbfishing said:

I WILL check the jackplate for the horsepower limitation but I don't anticpate going over 35 hp, in any even.

My 16' Alweld has welded in floor, sides, & a tunnel hull making it fairly heavy. The 40 Tohatsu has great holeshot & top end.

The smart tabs put you on plane quicker that the outboard's trim alone.

[Way2slow]

Might want to check your prop for the size and damage, and consider trying one a pitch smaller.  Granted, 25 on a 17.5 is on the small size.  There not a bunch of difference between a 25 and 35.  If I was going to swap, I would be looking at least a 40/50.  Many times the 40 is nothing but a detuned 50 so hole shot is about the same with them,   Some 17.5's can be rated for a 90 and I've seen a couple older ones rated for 115, just depends in when and how they fell in on the coast guard rating criteria.