Lightest Handle

[SoInBassman]

I would like to know on a casting rod what is the lightest handle configuration, I'm mainly interested in the following handles.

1. Split Grips in Cork, EVA, Carbon Fiber, Winn grips or combinations of these.

2. Full Handles in Cork, EVA, Carbon Fiber, Winn Grips

If you know what each of these weigh that would be awesome, trying to make a decision and weighting all the options.

Or does anyone know where to find such information, Lets say Premium grade split cork is lightest, then how much more weight will EVA, Carbon Fiber, Winn grips add to a rod build?
 

 

Thanks

[MickD]

I don't have definitive data on all the options, but with what I have, and what others may have, you can figure it out.

1.  Winn grips are lighter than cork.

2. Carbon fiber is lighter than cork.

3. Burl cork is almost twice as dense as plain, natural, cork.

The answer is the same for full handles as with split grips.  It's all about the density of the materials assuming all shapes will be the same.  There is nothing in these materials that will allow shapes to be different, assuming you are not compromising ergonomics.

I expect that the differences between Winn and Carbon fiber are very small.  I expect, but have no data, that EVA is the heaviest.  Carbon fiber is hard, so one might expect it to be  higher sensitivity than Winn, but I'll bet you'll have a hard time feeling it.

I just finished the lightest split grip casting rod I ever made, conventional Fuji reel seat (skeleton would be lighter), 3.44 oz with Fuji titanium K guides (RV first guide), Point Blank 691MXF blank, and it had no foregrip, Winn short cast grip with Winn butt knob.

Any further questions I might help with, just ask.

[fishnkamp]

I had my custom rod builder remove the factory reel seats and full cork handle off of two of my G Loomis rods.  We chose an American Tackle comfort grip (not necessarily the lightest but oh how comfortable) and a set of Winn Grips in the natural cork pattern. Man those rods are super lite and almost melt into your hand, These were on 6 foot spinning rods and the difference was night and day. I also like that the grips still look like corr sorta Here is a partial before and after

 

[Hogsticker]

3 hours ago, MickD said:

I don't have definitive data on all the options, but with what I have, and what others may have, you can figure it out.

1.  Winn grips are lighter than cork.

2. Carbon fiber is lighter than cork.

3. Burl cork is almost twice as dense as plain, natural, cork.

The answer is the same for full handles as with split grips.  It's all about the density of the materials assuming all shapes will be the same.  There is nothing in these materials that will allow shapes to be different, assuming you are not compromising ergonomics.

I expect that the differences between Winn and Carbon fiber are very small.  I expect, but have no data, that EVA is the heaviest.  Carbon fiber is hard, so one might expect it to be  higher sensitivity than Winn, but I'll bet you'll have a hard time feeling it.

I just finished the lightest split grip casting rod I ever made, conventional Fuji reel seat (skeleton would be lighter), 3.44 oz with Fuji titanium K guides (RV first guide), Point Blank 691MXF blank, and it had no foregrip, Winn short cast grip with Winn butt knob.

Any further questions I might help with, just ask.

Have you had a chance to fish that blank yet? What are your initial impressions and is this your first Point Blank? I've read that these blanks are over rated regarding lure weights. I've also read that they all have a rather progressive bend under load, yet have fast tip actions. Spill the beans! Thx 

To the OP - Personally, I'd be more concerned with balance and the reel you'll be using than lightest handle configuration possible. Use the material and reel seat you prefer and find most comfortable. Nothing worse than a tip heavy custom build. 

[SoInBassman]

All great information, thank you. The rod will be built on a Point Blank - blank as well. and the guy wanting it built has many custom built rods and is very particular when choosing all his components & equipment, he does his homework and studies these things before he jumps, I think he has some experience with the PB Blanks and has a certain model in mind. I will try to keep you informed as to how the rod turns out. As to the PB -blanks being over rated, I've been told by a few others, that the problem has been corrected and the guys using them really like them. Thanks again. 

[EvanT123]

Hate to hijack this thread but......does anyone have any comments on how density effects the transmission of vibrations? Would a  denser material  transmit vibration better than a less dense material? Is a denser material heavier than a less one and the addition  of said weight be a wash in the transmission of vibration?

[MickD]

9 hours ago, Hogsticker said:

Have you had a chance to fish that blank yet? What are your initial impressions and is this your first Point Blank? I've read that these blanks are over rated regarding lure weights. I've also read that they all have a rather progressive bend under load, yet have fast tip actions. Spill the beans! Thx 

To the OP - Personally, I'd be more concerned with balance and the reel you'll be using than lightest handle configuration possible. Use the material and reel seat you prefer and find most comfortable. Nothing worse than a tip heavy custom build. 

I have not fished either of the two almost identical PB's I made for my son.  Will have to try them next time we fish together.  I can tell you he loves them.  The blank was selected based on CCS data that Fuji provided, before they went public with it, to use with Lake St Clair smallies on jerkbaits.  Traditional crankbait rods just won't allow you to get the shart twitch they want, and these XF blanks do. This shows the power of CCS and being able to measure your blanks.   My impression of the blanks is very positive, they are straight, look good, will look good with just about any wrap color, and are very light for their power.  I think they are one of the premiere blanks available now.  One thing to watch, their finish is different than other blanks, and it can be affected by the rollers in rod winding rigs.  Do not tighten them into the rigs, and especially when curing the epoxy where they turn in the same place for hours, the finish can get smoothed at the roller points.  It can almost be restored with a grey abrasive pad.  Just cosmetic, not functional.

Regarding overrating for lure weights, there was one model that had this problem, and I think Anglers REsource has fixed it in their current literature.  It was a blank that they said went up to 1 oz and it should have been 3/4.  Use the Anglers Resource current site or the PointBlankrods.com site for specs.

[SoInBassman]

Mick thanks for the detailed info regarding the Point Blank in question, the guy wanting the rod has done his homework and is fairly familiar with these blanks and has used a few in the past. From everything I have read or heard I'm with you on thinking they are one of the premier blanks being offered today, refreshing and something new always has a learning curve. Thank you for your knowledge and info.

[MickD]

I fished the second of the point blanks, the one with the Winn Grips, yesterday.  I did not catch any fish, but cast various lures to get a feel for it.  Regarding sensitivity, since during the retrieve most hold the reel and not the grip, the grip material is a moot point.  However, I did force myself to hold the grip while retrieving a lipless crank and I could feel the action of the lure about the same through the grip as when holding just the reel.  It appears that the Winn Grips are very sensitive.  Usually light means sensitive, and the core of the Winn grips is rigid foam, so they should be quite sensitive.  

Regarding casting, I think I like a slower action for casting ease and comfort, but these rods were built with a specific task in mind, and that was to allow the very fast twitch on a hard jerkbait that Lake St Clair smallies respond best to.  They do that very well.  My son uses both of them for all kinds of lures and likes the XF action.  He is a better baitcaster than I.

Any other questions, just ask.

[SoInBassman]

Thanks Mick, I'm getting ready to do some testing myself on the PB Blanks, and looking forward to it. One thing I've noticed, they do offer a few of the higher power blanks in a moderate action which is welcome news, and I'm curious to see how they perform. Another thing is several of the mid power rods are extremely light with good power and I look forward to testing / fishing those as well. Overall I've heard / read god things and look forward to getting familiar with them here in the next few months. Thanks again, as always I enjoy reading your post on this subject.

[BassinLou]

A point blank rod with a full Carbon fiber grip is a dream. I'm really enjoying mine. Light as a feather but strong as an ox. 

[.ghoti.]

A few thoughts for your consideration.

Carbon skin grips over a foam core might be the lightest. But that would depend on the density of the foam used. There are different densities available. Also the finishing over the carbon fiber will have some impact. How much, or how  little  is  used  will affect the final  weight.

Winn grips are slightly lighter than natural cork. Burl cork is two to three times the weight of natural cork.

I don't care for EVA, so I don't use it, unless it is requested. There are different grades of this stuff, with differing densities.  I've never measured it.

Having said all that, what real affect does any of this have on the final product? The handle is where the thing is held. Any "extra" weight will be in your hand, and will have no affect how the rod feels or performs.  The  difference  between carbon skin,  Winn and natural  cork  will  be minimal  when built  as a split grip  assembly, and  will likely  be undetectable when  in hand.  You'll see a  little difference on the scale, but will  not notice it  while  fishing.

The whole tip heavy thing makes me a little nuts. You can't balance a rod against the back force of a crankbait or spinnerbait, so there's no reason to try. Tip up techniques are what most people are referring to  when  whining  about  a  rod being  tip heavy.  Think  about this:  if you're holding  the rod  with  the tip  straight  up, how does being  tip heavy have any  affect?  It  doesn't.  There will be  no torque  on your wrist.  Holding  the rod parallel  to the ground,  or water, will  apply  some  torque  to  your  wrist. How often do  you hold the rod in that position when fishing bottom  contact techniques? If you are  capable, apply some  mathematics to the problem.  You will discover  that  what is being discussed,  and whined about, is measured in inch ounces rather  than foot/pounds of torque  when the  rod  is  held  nearly perpendicular  to  the  water. The closer to  perpendicular  the rod  is held, the  lower  the torque on  the  wrist.

If and when i ever get to the point that a few inch/ounces of torque on my poor old wrist becomes too much for me to handle, I'll take up a more gentle sport. Like needlepoint maybe. 

[SoInBassman]

.ghoti. I could not agree more about the torque and the tip heavy rods. We did something pretty interesting this weekend, I had my customer bring me his 3 favorite rods so we could discuss this custom build in detail and we found some interesting data. His 3 favorite rods were no where near equal he just found subtle things about each rod he liked the best. I'll try to describe them in short.

#3 I found this interesting because he is a casting guru, but this rod is a spinning rod of a major mfg, and is the farthest from being a balanced rod. It's old school, large guides 7'2" and he uses it for mostly drop shop, shakey heads and other light weight plastics, Said he likes it because it has backbone and he's caught a lot of bass with it, sentimental value I think.

#2 7' MH Casting Rod from another major mfg, but this rod has a full cork handle that he's covered with a wrap of sorts, tennis racket wrap I think. This rod is pretty balanced and has some higher end components, fuji guides, seat, etc. This is his go to rod he said, but when I put in on the scales it was heavy my way of thinking?

#1. 7' 2" Custom Rod, he had built a couple of years ago. This rod has cork split grips, a MVT seat, and micro guides 13 guides I believe?, anyway this rod is what started him thinking about the weight of his next custom. It's fairly light but a good HM Blank, and this is where I think I was able to shed some light. He is a jig fisherman 75-80% of the time, and he's wanting to build another upper end Jig rod. He asked my opinion on the handle assy and I've been trying to explain the best I can why it makes a difference to him. He fished a rod that had a carbon handle and the guy told him how much lighter it was so he believed it and liked the way the rod fished.

It's all about perception, and personal preference but the guy really liked the rod and his buddy would not sell it to him because it was built on a shakari blank that is no longer available, thus he's come to me looking to duplicate that rod. I think I have him convinced and at least now I have him focused on the blank, weight, action, and power more so than just the grip assembly. I even laid out a micro guide train and explained how the components that go onto the rod are just as important, or more so than the handle assy.

So we have decided to build a couple of rods, his rod split grips and the other a full handle CF, and he is going to examine them and make his decision on which he prefers better, my guess is he will end up with both, only time will tell.

Thanks for your input and information, it is appreciated

Rich 

[.ghoti.]

Kudos to you for going the extra mile, SoInBassman. This what custom rods are all about. Education. Getting with the client, discuss what he wants, then showing him, out of all that's available, what he really needs. My goal is to  put a rod in the hands of a fellow fisherman that will be cherished. Not because it has the latest and greatest, not because it the lightest, certainly not because it's the most expensive. But, because it does precisely what it is intended to do.

The sad and sorry truth of the matter is; for every piece of good information stored in the Web, there a multiple pieces of stupidity. This is a problem with no solution. Other than retroactive birth control. LOL