Age-Old G. Loomis vs St.Croix Question

[Zeeter]

I haven't been bass fishing in over ten years. Currently my arsenal consists of three Shimano Curado reels (one new, two ten years or more), two St Croix Premier casting rods, and a G. Loomis 783C. Typically the Loomis is rigged for worming, as it has the greater feel than the other rods, and for the price I would hope so. Yet the reservoir we fish has very little shoreline fishing where I would typically worm or jig. We spend most of our time using crankbaits and spinners. 

The distance I'm getting with the St. Croix rods on casts is not that good. I've cleaned the reels but to no avail. Switching out the worm to a crankbait, I got some great casts with the longer Loomis rod. Probably a combination of the rod length and the newer reel. 

So...I'm looking at rods again. My sites are set on either a St. Croix Avid or another IMX 783C. There's about a $100 difference between the two and I have no experience with the Avids.

My question for those who have tried both, is the IMX $100 better than the Avid? Assuming that I am an above average recreational fisherman (at most an inexperienced tournament fisherman), will I miss fish with one rod or the other? My Premier rods are 6'6". Should I maybe stick with one of those but at 7'?

Lately my son and I have begun a fishing renaissance. Call it bonding or whatever. I notice that after every ten or twelve casts he needs to spend about 20 minutes untangling something that he's fouled up. I have him using my Shimano Stradic and a fairly cheap Quantum rod which may have been part of a combo. A lot of this is carelessness and inexperience on his part, such as not keeping an eye on where his lure is and getting it tangled with the line on the rod. There may be some line memory going on there, too, which could be adding to the problem.

I'm considering getting him a 6'6" St. Croix Premier spinning rod and a Shimano Sienna which is a great reel for the price! Not a Stradic, but for $130 less it is well worth the money. Plus...he's 17 and hasn't put in the time to earn a better reel. Can anyone think of a better setup for the price than that? Yes, I want to get him onto baitcasters eventually, but if he can't keep from tangling a spinning rod then he's nowhere near ready for a baitcaster. The GL2 and GL3 seem grossly overpriced.

So to summarize:

1. Is a G. Loomis a $100 better rod than the St. Croix Avid? This will be an all-around rod as I don't have the wallet to get a rod for every fishing situation.

2. Is the Sienna with a Premier 6'6" a good setup for a 17 year old or can someone think of better? 

I realize the St Croix vs G. Loomis question has been asked about 1,402 times, but I can't find anything recent.

I'll get all my questions out at once. My order contains PowerPro Braid 10# green, Berkley Trilene XL Smooth Casting 8# (for spinning), PLine CFX 10# fluorocarbon leader, plus some other odds and ends. Any suggestions on why I should consider other brands?

[Bluebasser86]

What are you combos exactly? Rod/length/power/action,  reel/size/age, line/brand/size/age. 

Your rods will effect your casting distance, but I have a feeling it's your reel and/or line that's effecting your distance the most. 

[Zeeter]

G. Loomis IMX 843C (7', MH, Fast) with a new Curado 201HG 7:2:1 (yes...should have gotten the 6:3:1). Spiderwire 10# Braid and a 10# fluorocarbon leader (can't remember the brand). Standard size on the reel.

St. Croix Triumph (6'6", M, Fast) with a Bantam Curado CU101B low profile. This one has mono 10# and the reel is about 12 years old.

St. Croix Premier (6'6", M, Fast) with a Bantam Curado CU201. Same line setup as the Loomis rod and the reel is about 14 years old. 

Both older reels are well maintained. All of the line has been newly added this month.

I intend to change out the line on all of these setups as I'm not happy at all with the spiderwire braid and I had an...incident...where I Iost about 25 yards of the mono. I don't want to get into that as it's embarrassing, but I did get my Lucky Craft lure back!!

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Zeeter
Edit: It's an 843, not a 783. The 783 is what I'm looking at getting.

[Darren.]

 

42 minutes ago, Zeeter said:

I'm considering getting him a 6'6" St. Croix Premier spinning rod and a Shimano Sienna which is a great reel for the price! Not a Stradic, but for $130 less it is well worth the money. Plus...he's 17 and hasn't put in the time to earn a better reel. Can anyone think of a better setup for the price than that? Yes, I want to get him onto baitcasters eventually, but if he can't keep from tangling a spinning rod then he's nowhere near ready for a baitcaster. The GL2 and GL3 seem grossly overpriced.

So to summarize:

1. Is a G. Loomis a $100 better rod than the St. Croix Avid? This will be an all-around rod as I don't have the wallet to get a rod for every fishing situation.

2. Is the Sienna with a Premier 6'6" a good setup for a 17 year old or can someone think of better? 

I realize the St Croix vs G. Loomis question has been asked about 1,402 times, but I can't find anything recent.

I'll get all my questions out at once. My order contains PowerPro Braid 10# green, Berkley Trilene XL Smooth Casting 8# (for spinning), PLine CFX 10# fluorocarbon leader, plus some other odds and ends. Any suggestions on why I should consider other brands?

First, welcome aboard!

As far as your son, that spinning setup would be
fine to get him going. I've got 4 boys from 12-19
and they all do better with spinning gear, though
the three youngest have both. They're all into
casting because it is "cool". They practice in the
back yard all the time.

Only thing I might consider is getting him a ML 
power as Croix rods are a tad stiffer than their
rating. I have a Legend Tournament 6'3" MLXF
that I use for soft plastics (Wacky, etc.) and it is
plenty strong.

As well, I suggest using the 10# PP for spinning
mainline. Much easier to manage, and then tie
on a leader.

[Zeeter]

3 minutes ago, Darren. said:

As well, I suggest using the 10# PP for spinning
mainline. Much easier to manage, and then tie
on a leader.

You're saying to use braid on the spinning setup? Two issues I have with that. First is that if he snags then that line isn't going to break off until I cut it. Second, I don't see him tying leaders on all day. I need to keep it simple for him or he'll lose interest. 

[Darren.]

Just now, Zeeter said:

You're saying to use braid on the spinning setup? Two issues I have with that. First is that if he snags then that line isn't going to break off until I cut it. Second, I don't see him tying leaders on all day. I need to keep it simple for him or he'll lose interest. 

Then by all means keep it simple for him.  

[roadwarrior]

St. Croix is a better value.  I would specifically recommend the AVX68MXF. For line and to keep it simple: Yo-Zuri Hybrid #6 for spinning tackle; #12 for baitcasting.

 

[fishnkamp]

Lets go! First your Loomis should be a 6'6 if it is a 783.  That is okay because as a worm and jig rod it terrific.  It is in the mag family so it is a great rod for worms, jigs, texas rigged creature baits anything that is a bottom contact bait.  It is perfect for that purpose and yes 6.1 would be ideal, but if you fish deep the extra speed is helpful if you need to get the bait in and rapid fire it out again. I would leave that alone for those jobs.  Now, I love G Loomis rods and between my wife and I we fish 6 of them (no I am not any richer than you I collected them over time).  The IMX is some good graphite (3 of mine are IMX) but let me head you down another path.  It sounds like you what you need is a 7 foot medium action moderate taper rod and a good reel.  I suggest you look at an Irod Genesis II . The line is made up on really lite blanks, eva handles, a very comfortable reel seat with good finger contact on the blank.  I fish an IRG 703CC it is called the Gabes Rip Rap Special. This rod is a composite and therefore it has a slower taper perfect for treble hook baits.  It specs as a 7 foot MH moderate taper, 1/4 to 3/4 and line rating of 8 to 16.  I fish all of my crankbaits and rattle trap type bait on this rod and I know it can handle a spinnerbait as well as I like a slower taper for those also. That rod will run you $155.  Now find a deal on a Diawa Tatula or Diawa Fuega.  The Tatula reels have a T wing system that throws a bait really well.  I would definitely use that combo for everything short of a deep deep diving crankbait, but from what you already own, I doubt you would throw a DD22 type bait anyway.  That Diawa Tatula retails for $150 but can easily be purchased for less than $110 shipped from one of the Amazon retailers.  I have purchased 4  that way just this spring.  Again I am not rich, I sold a bunch of tackle this spring and upgraded.  

Now onto the grandson.  There are lots of good choices for a medium spinning rod but let me give you  a couple of suggestion.  I just sold two St Croix premier rods and they are nice, but old type graphite and sorta expensive for that level graphite. Take a look at an Abu Garcia Vendetta 6'9' ML (do not worry about the lite rating all Abu's are a bit heavier than their ratings)  6-10 # line -1/8 to 1/2 lure rating.  That retails for $80 or look at a Powell Inferno 6'10" medium.  It retails for $100.  For a reel he will fish for a lifetime without trouble, look at a Pflueger President in 6930 size.  Man they cost $60 bucks and have 10 bearings.  Between my wife and I we have 6 in different sizes.  As for line, I stopped letting my wife use mono or copoly a long time ago. On spinning reels we both have come to use Berkley Original Fireline.  Spool him up with either 10 pound or 14 pound green (that is their bright yellow sorta color)  Now the equipment part is easy the hard part is making him ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS click the bail over by hand everytime!  That I can not help you with! LOL. My wife is an accomplished angler with many fish caught over 6 pounds including a 35 pound cat, 8 pound rainbow, 6 pound smallie etc. and I still have to "gently remind" her once in a while.  Good Luck and let us know what you do.  If I can help anymore pm me  Bob

 

 

[blckshirt98]

+1 for the Shimano Sienna, which is on sale for only $20 at Dick's Sporting Goods.  I use a Sienna for surf fishing and my reel is going into it's 3rd year of service and still works like a charm.  I go cheap with my saltwater gear because of how corrosive the salt is in case I have to replace it, but the Sienna has worked great and has not needed replacing.  Don't think you'll find a better reel for $20.

[Zeeter]

39 minutes ago, blckshirt98 said:

+1 for the Shimano Sienna, which is on sale for only $20 at Dick's Sporting Goods.  I use a Sienna for surf fishing and my reel is going into it's 3rd year of service and still works like a charm.  I go cheap with my saltwater gear because of how corrosive the salt is in case I have to replace it, but the Sienna has worked great and has not needed replacing.  Don't think you'll find a better reel for $20.

You use it for surf fishing; how is it for bass?

49 minutes ago, fishnkamp said:

 If I can help anymore pm me  Bob

Bob - I see you're from Baltimore. I'm in Aberdeen. Do you fish reservoirs a lot? I go to Lock Raven as the boat rentals are so inexpensive. Caught two really nice LM last week there before the heat sent them deep. I didn't have my deep rigs so at that point I was done.

[Cgrinder]

IMX not worth the money. However the E6X are pretty solid if you like lime green. Probably a toss up between that and the Avid.

[blckshirt98]

The surf is much harsher on a reel than freshwater, I use the more expensive Shimano spinning reels for LMB but the Sienna should do fine in freshwater.

I'm not sure how he is getting tangles on spinning gear, like you mentioned it might be line memory and the line curling up on itself.  I'd spool the spinning reel up with 15# braid, and use 8# fluoro leader (assuming you're using it for finesse presentations).  That way you should only have issues if you snag on structure, and if you break off you'll only lose the fluoro section and not any of the braid.

[Zeeter]

11 minutes ago, Cgrinder said:

IMX not worth the money. However the E6X are pretty solid if you like lime green. Probably a toss up between that and the Avid.

I have the IMX now and like it very much. They're probably not worth $300 but they are certainly great rods.

I'm researching the E6X now. Sounds better than the GL2 but I'm really looking for a full step up from that; not a half step.

4 minutes ago, blckshirt98 said:

The surf is much harsher on a reel than freshwater, I use the more expensive Shimano spinning reels for LMB but the Sienna should do fine in freshwater.

I'm not sure how he is getting tangles on spinning gear, like you mentioned it might be line memory and the line curling up on itself.  I'd spool the spinning reel up with 15# braid, and use 8# fluoro leader (assuming you're using it for finesse presentations).  That way you should only have issues if you snag on structure, and if you break off you'll only lose the fluoro section and not any of the braid.

Yeah, I'm not sure what he was doing, but my guess is that he wasn't paying attention to the lure prior to casting. I had to keep telling him not to reel it in all the way to the top. I think he was doing that and it was getting caught on the line on the rod between the tip and first eye. Then he tried to cast it that way and all heck broke loose. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

[Turkey sandwich]

Welcome to the forum!

 

The way I would approach your situation, there are a few easy fixes.  For spinning reel messes, it's typically from line spooled incorrectly, allowing slack line to gather on the spool, or lures that create a lot of twist (in-line spinners are the perfect example).  To correctly spool line, just make sure that the line is coming org of the spool onto your reel in the same direction.  There are cheap spool tools available that make this really easy.  To prevent slack from gathering, have your son get in the habit of closing the bail with his hand rather than reeling it shut.  To negate line twist from lures, add a quality swivel to the rig. 

 

To add casting distance (in addition to upgrading reels or rods) one of the best investments you can make in a spinning reel is 10-20lb braid, preferably PP or Suffix 832.  There's no memory, so it'll reduce tangles and cast much farther due to the limpness and small diameter.  With the braid, you'll want to typically run a 5-6' mono/floro/copolymer leader.  The leader will help with abrasion resistance, line visibility, will allow you more control over how a lure floats or sinks in the water, and the lure to leader connection will typically have the weakest link in case you need to break off.  Once you get a good connection knot line uni to uni or ablright down,  it's a much more stress free set up.  

 

As for rods, I have an Avid X that I absolutely love and would put up against pretty much any rod at $300 or less.  However, you have a lot of fast action rods covered, mentioned that you're going to be throwing a lot more crankbaits, and don't have the cash to buy all technique secific set ups.  My suggestion is to buy a crankbait rod around the $100-125 price point like a Veritas Winch or first generation Mojo Bass Glass and then take the other $200 from your Loomis budget and pick up an Avid X for whatever other presentation you need.  Based on he budget you provided, you do likely have the cash for technique specific gear, it's just a matter of how to spend it.  Frankly, a $100-$150 crankbait Rod isn't that much different than a $300 crankbait Rod until you start splitting hairs and you're going to have a lot more success throwing treble hook lures on a moderate action Veritas Winch than you will on a faster action Loomis or St Croix with a fast action. (Faster action rods is where the higher $ typically means higher quality graphite, and makes sense except for reaction baits)

 

in short - braid will help with the line and casting problems and less pricey technique specific rods are going to fish what they're designed for better than expensive rods intended for fishing something entirely different. 

[fishnkamp]

Wow you are local. Yes, I used to fish  Prettyboy with my other boat. Currently I run the bay waters as well as Conowingo.  I have to take you out this fall for some light tackle strippers, it soo much fun on bass tackle. Unfortunately I am home right now trying to get my injured foot to heal.  However, if you have a little time and do not mind driving down to Middle River I would love to put some rods in your hand.  It will make your decision much easier.  By the way if you have not been "into " fishing for a while we have a terrific new tackle shop off Padonia Rd.  It is called Anglers Express. They are the only dealer for Dobyns around here as well and they carry Irod, Powell  and a bunch more.  If you cast my Irod with its Tatula on it you will be amazed.  I also can help your grandson on his casting quickly. Give me a call at 410-960-9328

[Zeeter]

 

1 hour ago, fishnkamp said:

Wow you are local. Yes, I used to fish  Prettyboy with my other boat. Currently I run the bay waters as well as Conowingo.  I have to take you out this fall for some light tackle strippers, it soo much fun on bass tackle. Unfortunately I am home right now trying to get my injured foot to heal.  However, if you have a little time and do not mind driving down to Middle River I would love to put some rods in your hand.  It will make your decision much easier.  By the way if you have not been "into " fishing for a while we have a terrific new tackle shop off Padonia Rd.  It is called Anglers Express. They are the only dealer for Dobyns around here as well and they carry Irod, Powell  and a bunch more.  If you cast my Irod with its Tatula on it you will be amazed.  I also can help your grandson on his casting quickly. Give me a call at 410-960-9328

Would like to hook up for some fishing. Not familiar with Middle River at all. Being without a boat I'm somewhat limited to where I can go. So many places have "no shore fishing" signs posted. I just moved down here from PA 2 years ago and don't know the hot spots yet. Was thinking of joining a club.

PS: It's my son; not my grandson. Hopefully I have a few years left before I gain that title.

[fishnkamp]

Sorry, sometimes  my fingers get ahead of my brain.  Anyway Middle River is south of you by about 25 minutes. You would travel down 95 till you get to the White Marsh exit and follow rt 43 to Eastern Boulevard. I am minutes from Martin State Airport.  

[Zeeter]

Ok - yeah. Let's get together for some fishing. I'm up for it! PM me and we can set something up.

[Zeeter]

So I wound up getting the IMX 853C JWR. Medium-Heavy, Extra fast, 7'1". This will be used for worming and jigging, freeing up my 843C for crankbaits and spinning.

Thought was that I really did want the IMX but the Avid is $100 less expensive. I'm going to be using this thing for quite a while, so to me it makes sense to spend the extra money on what I really want rather than regret getting the less expensive rod.

Nothing against the Avid - it's a great rod. I just like the Loomis better and from what I've read, no. It's not $100 better, but it is better.

[fishnkamp]

Since you are located up near Aberdeen check into Flying Point Marina located off of Route 40  in Edgewood (not far from you). There is a very good reel repair guy located on the grounds there.  They may be able to breath some new life into your old reels.  Give the marina a phone call first and see if they have his number.  His is a separate business.

[lmbfisherman]

1 hour ago, Zeeter said:

So I wound up getting the IMX 853C JWR. Medium-Heavy, Extra fast, 7'1". This will be used for worming and jigging, freeing up my 843C for crankbaits and spinning.

Thought was that I really did want the IMX but the Avid is $100 less expensive. I'm going to be using this thing for quite a while, so to me it makes sense to spend the extra money on what I really want rather than regret getting the less expensive rod.

Nothing against the Avid - it's a great rod. I just like the Loomis better and from what I've read, no. It's not $100 better, but it is better.

Important thing is you gotta love your gear or it will not get used.  Having said that and I know I'm late.  I would've steered you towards the Zodias rod.  In my opinion it is the best rod I've used in that price range.  Maybe just keep it under your hat when you need another combo. Have fun with your new rod.

[Dan_the_fisher]

I own both the a imx 7'1" mh and a avid 7' mh, I gave $200 for each. Personally I still think the avid is the better buy at $200 then giving $200 for a imx 

[EvanT123]

Avid's and imx. Those are my favorite types of rods. Plain Jane, simple and effective. Happy fishing with your new rod!

[fishwizzard]

9 hours ago, fishnkamp said:

 a terrific new tackle shop off Padonia Rd.  It is called Anglers Express. 

Thanks for this, my dentist is up that way and I can't wait to check it out.  

[EllisJuan]

From what I have owned and used extensively, this is what I have gleamed

e6x=premier  IMX=Avid  GLX=Legend Elite  NRX > *

Until you get to the GLX, St. Croix is more bang for your buck.  That does not keep me from owning an IMX, and I am about to buy another e6x.  The GLX is a little better than the Legend Elite imho, and worth the money.  The NRX has no peer in the St. Croix line.