FG knot weakening

[tkunk]

I typically use 8-10 lb Sufix 832 braid with 7 lb Sunline fluoro.  When I first tie an FG knot with this set up, I can lift a 7.5 lb dumbbell off the ground without anything breaking, so I assume I'm tying it correctly.  But after maybe 4-6 hours on the water, the knot tends to weaken substantially.  Typically, a small fray appears in the braid part of the knot, and I can easily pull it apart by hand.

Typically, I set my leader length so that the knot is just outside the spool of my spinning reel before I cast.  I've noticed that if I use much shorter leaders, the knot tends to last much longer.  So I think that going through the guides weakens the knot.  Is the knot not supposed to pass through the guides?  Do the bigger guides near the reel do more damage than the smaller guides at the tip of the rod do?  Am I supposed to re-tie every couple of hours?

I'm new to spinning reels and using fluoro leaders with braid, so I'd appreciate any advice.  Thanks.

[Raul]

3 minutes ago, portiabrat said:

Am I supposed to re-tie every couple of hours?

Yes.

[S. Sass]

I know it's like talking to the wind but if you quit making that mess with a extra knot and just tie a Palomar Knot on your lure all the problems and questions you just asked will be answered. Including  re-ties.

Of course some are fanatics and think that fish just can't keep their eye off your line... hint hint many of us catch fish just fine strait braid. If that fish doesn't bite because of your line she wasn't biting anyway because she can see the steel hook too.   duh

[Darren.]

Welcome aboard!

I just use a Uni-to-Uni or an Albright/Alberto
to tie leader material. Only time I have to retie
a leader is if I break it off, it gets too short or 
I want to tie a different leader on altogether.

I know the FG is a good "knot", but unless you
have found it absolutely necessary, it isn't....

My setup is light braid + leader from 4-15#. 

The two knots I mentioned work extremely well
and I rarely, if ever break at the leader knot.

Just tie it tightly, plenty of saliva, and cinch it down
good. I caught my PB in thick slop with one of 
these using 10# leader.

And there are a lot of other knots like the J-knot
and Uni-to-clinch that can serve well for leader
as well.

[IAY]

I have yet to have FG knot break on me, and I use it for long long leaders in my saltwater set up. It helps me get the extra distance when I am making long cast and is just more comfortable than all of the other knots for me. Lightly melt the end of fluorocarbon to create a little ridge for the braid to grab on to.

[MassYak85]

I've never had the knot actually break once I learned how to correctly tie it, since it will be stronger than any knot you tie to the actual lure, but if  you are not finishing the knot correctly it can come undone and unravel while fishing it like you describe. What I do is tie a series of overhand knots after finishing the main wraps. That way even if it does start to unravel, it's the extra wraps, and not the part of the knot actually holding the two lines together. 

 

And NO. You do not need to retie often. I've had the same leader knot on some setups for weeks and even months at times. If I fished tournaments I would retie more often but the knot had never failed me, so I don't. Now obviously if I notice the knot is starting to look beat up I will retie. But if you tie it right, that knot should never break. If you hang up, lock down your drag, and pull hard, either the line should snap at some nick or fray in it, or the knot you tied to your lure should fail. 

[tkunk]

5 minutes ago, MassYak85 said:

I've never had the knot actually break once I learned how to correctly tie it, since it will be stronger than any knot you tie to the actual lure, but if  you are not finishing the knot correctly it can come undone and unravel while fishing it like you describe. What I do is tie a series of overhand knots after finishing the main wraps. That way even if it does start to unravel, it's the extra wraps, and not the part of the knot actually holding the two lines together. 

 

And NO. You do not need to retie often. I've had the same leader knot on some setups for weeks and even months at times. Now obviously if I notice the knot is starting to look beat up I will retie. But if you tie it right, that knot should never break. If you hang up, lock down your drag, and pull hard, either the line should snap at some nick or fray in it, or the knot you tied to your lure should fail. 

Thanks.  How many overhand knots are you making?  I've been using two.

[aquaholik]

You said the knot weaken substantially. Did you try to see if you can lift the 7.5 lb dumbbell off the ground again after the knot looks beat up? If so, did the braid or mono broke at the FG knot?

10 lb Suffix 832 has an ABS of well over 20 lbs. ALL BRAIDS weaken any where from 10-20 percents after the coating wears off. I've tested new braid and braid after 6 months of use. Every brand shows a drop in ABS. But you're only using 7lbs leader so the weaken braid should still be much stronger than your leader.

[tkunk]

33 minutes ago, aquaholik said:

You said the knot weaken substantially. Did you try to see if you can lift the 7.5 lb dumbbell off the ground again after the knot looks beat up? If so, did the braid or mono broke at the FG knot?

10 lb Suffix 832 has an ABS of well over 20 lbs. ALL BRAIDS weaken any where from 10-20 percents after the coating wears off. I've tested new braid and braid after 6 months of use. Every brand shows a drop in ABS. But you're only using 7lbs leader so the weaken braid should still be much stronger than your leader.

Nothing's really breaking.  After 4-6 hours, the knot basically unravels.  My 2 year old could pull it apart.

When the knot is new, it's very strong.  It's never broken, even when I intentionally break the line on snags.

[MassYak85]

55 minutes ago, portiabrat said:

Thanks.  How many overhand knots are you making?  I've been using two.

I'll try and describe exactly what I do, it's just what I have found to work, I know many do it differently. 

 

So for the main knot I do usually 20-25 wraps, and the finish it with ONE overhand knot, it is at this point I tighten up the knot. Now the knot is at full strength BUT, it will very easily unravel like you are describing in your post. Once the knot is tightened I take tag end of the leader and lay it parallel to the braid main line. Then I do 5-6 extra overhand knots over BOTH lines. Then I take away but DON'T cut the fluoro leader and do another 5-6 overhand knots over JUST the braid mainline. It is important to make sure each overhand knot is tight, don't pull so hard it starts to deform the knot but make sure they are all snug. Once you do that, cut the leader tag end as close as you can without nicking the braid wraps. Then cut the braid tag end, and voila! There's your knot. It probably takes me 2 minutes to tie it at this point. You can add a dab of superglue if you want but I have never felt it to be necessary. 

So in summary, I have 20-25 wraps for the main knot, 5-6 overhand knots over BOTH the leader tag and the braid main line, and 5-6 overhand knots over just the braid main line. So 10-12 vs the 2 you say you do. 

I believe the reason yours is unraveling is because the knot does tend to unravel a bit. The reason I use so many is that overtime I have found that maybe 2-3 of the overhand knots will unravel. But because I have so many this doesn't affect my knot since the overhand knots are not what gives it strength. Whereas if you use 2 like you say then if both unravel there is nothing to keep the entire knot from unraveling. Is 12 overhand knots overkill? Probably. But it's what gives me confidence the knot will never fail. I would say use at least 4-5. The superglue might allow you to get away with less. 

There are some finer details I do when tying mine but it would be hard to describe without showing you. It is definitely difficult to tie but I usually tie around an 8-10 foot leader, so it will last a long time. And since the knot is so thin it will go through the guides and the reel itself. 

 

[tkunk]

5 minutes ago, MassYak85 said:

I'll try and describe exactly what I do, it's just what I have found to work, I know many do it differently. 

 

So for the main knot I do usually 20-25 wraps, and the finish it with ONE overhand knot, it is at this point I tighten up the knot. Now the knot is at full strength BUT, it will very easily unravel like you are describing in your post. Once the knot is tightened I take tag end of the leader and lay it parallel to the braid main line. Then I do 5-6 extra overhand knots over BOTH lines. Then I take away but DON'T cut the fluoro leader and do another 5-6 overhand knots over JUST the braid mainline. It is important to make sure each overhand knot is tight, don't pull so hard it starts to deform the knot but make sure they are all snug. Once you do that, cut the leader tag end as close as you can without nicking the braid wraps. Then cut the braid tag end, and voila! There's your knot. It probably takes me 2 minutes to tie it at this point. You can add a dab of superglue if you want but I have never felt it to be necessary. 

So in summary, I have 20-25 wraps for the main knot, 5-6 overhand knots over BOTH the leader tag and the braid main line, and 5-6 overhand knots over just the braid main line. So 10-12 vs the 2 you say you do. 

I believe the reason yours is unraveling is because the knot does tend to unravel a bit. The reason I use so many is that overtime I have found that maybe 2-3 of the overhand knots will unravel. But because I have so many this doesn't affect my knot since the overhand knots are not what gives it strength. Whereas if you use 2 like you say then if both unravel there is nothing to keep the entire knot from unraveling. Is 12 overhand knots overkill? Probably. But it's what gives me confidence the knot will never fail. I would say use at least 4-5. The superglue might allow you to get away with less. 

There are some finer details I do when tying mine but it would be hard to describe without showing you. 

 

Awesome.  Thanks!

[EdRitchie]

I tried the FG several time. After watching this video couple time I finally go it.

 

[MassYak85]

That video is pretty good. I actually might try that finish he uses instead next time I do one.

[aquaholik]

So for the main knot I do usually 20-25 wraps, and the finish it with ONE overhand knot, it is at this point I tighten up the knot.

That is very important. Most people do not tighten it and continue to finish the knot by doing more half hitch, rizutto, reverse uni, etc BEFORE they FORM the knot. You don't ever FINISH the knot before you FORM the knot. And you form that knot after EXACTLY one half hitch and GLOVE tightened until the braid changes color. Then choose whatever finish that fancies you. You can make it simple by doing more half hitches, alternating half hitches, build ramps after cutting off the mono tag end, etc.

NONE of the finishing wraps affects the knot strength. It only serves to keep the first half hitches from unraveling. But don't make the mistake of trying to finish the knot before forming it.

[dam0007]

4 hours ago, S. Sass said:

I know it's like talking to the wind but if you quit making that mess with a extra knot and just tie a Palomar Knot on your lure all the problems and questions you just asked will be answered. Including  re-ties.

Of course some are fanatics and think that fish just can't keep their eye off your line... hint hint many of us catch fish just fine strait braid. If that fish doesn't bite because of your line she wasn't biting anyway because she can see the steel hook too.   duh

Not for nothin but if I get hung up its way easier to break off on a low test mono or FC leader rather than extra strong braid. Less stress on the reel too. 

[S. Sass]

39 minutes ago, dam0007 said:

Not for nothin but if I get hung up its way easier to break off on a low test mono or FC leader rather than extra strong braid. Less stress on the reel too. 

So your low test mono or FC leader is to weaken the main line?  And create less stress on the reel? Not picking on you or anyone that believes this is the way to fish. But why don't you just use a line that will break off to start with? Basically its like you guys are spooled up with the wrong line so you just ad a piece of what should be on the spool to start with? I see this as the most counter productive mess someone sold in fishing years ago. Seriously If we are going with the fish are that smart to know the line is there then they know that hook is there. I dont buy that they are that smart they eat plastic fake lures all day all over the planet. 

Your already breaking off losing the lure since you weakened the line adding a extra knot and a weaker line. What good is the braids strength when you have a fish on if you stick a piece of thread on the end that holds the lure? What good is it doing the guides on your rod running a knot through them every time you reel in your line? Probably equal to the damage to a reel you described. I will actually cut my line if its hung that bad so as not to hurt my reel or catch a hook in me or a fishing partner.  

What fun is it guessing when your knot is ready to give up as the OP posted? If you like tying knots and going through a similar mess of 30+ wraps and knots as described below have at it. I just see a lot of over complicating fishing.

2 hours ago, portiabrat said:

So in summary, I have 20-25 wraps for the main knot, 5-6 overhand knots over BOTH the leader tag and the braid main line, and 5-6 overhand knots over just the braid main line.

over 30 wraps and knots combined to make one knot... 

[MassYak85]

There's a bunch of reasons to use the leader instead of just straight line in some instances. If it's a fluoro leader....cost savings. Maybe you want the sensitivity of braid but need abrasion resistance at the business end. You can argue the rational behind it but some guys like the reduced visibility. Maybe you like the manageability of braid, but like someone else said, need to break off. Thin braids can dig into themselves on the spool and when you get to more manageable diameters you are talking 20+# breaking strength. 

 

And as far as going through the work of tying the FG knot. We stress about making sure all our gear is quality and up to the task.....so why not take literally one extra minute and tie the best knot for the job? Call it over complication, I call it attention to detail. If we're going to spend the time to take apart entire reels, clean and oil them, why should we skimp on something as simple as a knot. 

[dam0007]

1 hour ago, S. Sass said:

So your low test mono or FC leader is to weaken the main line?  And create less stress on the reel? Not picking on you or anyone that believes this is the way to fish. But why don't you just use a line that will break off to start with? Basically its like you guys are spooled up with the wrong line so you just ad a piece of what should be on the spool to start with? I see this as the most counter productive mess someone sold in fishing years ago. Seriously If we are going with the fish are that smart to know the line is there then they know that hook is there. I dont buy that they are that smart they eat plastic fake lures all day all over the planet. 

Your already breaking off losing the lure since you weakened the line adding a extra knot and a weaker line. What good is the braids strength when you have a fish on if you stick a piece of thread on the end that holds the lure? What good is it doing the guides on your rod running a knot through them every time you reel in your line? Probably equal to the damage to a reel you described. I will actually cut my line if its hung that bad so as not to hurt my reel or catch a hook in me or a fishing partner.  

What fun is it guessing when your knot is ready to give up as the OP posted? If you like tying knots and going through a similar mess of 30+ wraps and knots as described below have at it. I just see a lot of over complicating fishing.

over 30 wraps and knots combined to make one knot... 

In general people aren't using braid because it's super strong but for the sensitivity and it just so happens the higher lb tests are just more manageable on casting reels. 

[mojojojo]

Or you could just use straight fluorocarbon and never have to worry about a leader knot breaking since you never have a leader to deal with in the first place

[Turkey sandwich]

On spinning/casting gear my line to line connections are all uni to uni with braid as the main line.  I typically re-tie once a weekend before heading out if I'm fishing all weekend. My braid has never given out.  If I have problems, it's my line to lure connection first, and my leader snapping at the connection knot second.  It is very rare that that leader connection fails on me even with microguides beating up the knot.  

@Darren. is spot on. 

 

Also, lines will support more static weight than their rating. You could pick up a 7lb weight with 4lb test.  Pound test rating is more of shock test than a dead weight rating.  

[MickD]

The way the FG works is that the braid "embeds" into the leader material forming a mechanical lock + the finger trap..  The half hitches keep the braid from loosening.  More than two half hitches probably is a good idea, but 20-25 braid weaves is counterproductive.  After about 12 weaves, the "extra" weaves don't really deform the leader and may even prevent any of them from doing so.

The braids need to be progressively tightened and slid down the leader thus stacking it uniformly and tightly in groups of 4 or so weaves.  If you wait until you get many more to tighten them, they may not actually tighten properly.  When you have the 12 nicely tightened and the knot is tight and uniform, then pull on both ends and you'll get the desired effect.

Tying the knot using light braid and leaders is quite difficult for me, so when I'm using line and leaders that light, I just use a double uni which goes through the guides well.

A properly tied FG will last many fishing trips.  Not necessary to retie often.  If you have one that's done right, leave it alone until it obviously shows distress.  When you think an FG is getting a little beat up, tear it apart and you'll observe the leader deformation I'm talking about.

[aquaholik]

3 hours ago, MickD said:

The way the FG works is that the braid "embeds" into the leader material forming a mechanical lock + the finger trap..  The half hitches keep the braid from loosening.  More than two half hitches probably is a good idea, but 20-25 braid weaves is counterproductive.  After about 12 weaves, the "extra" weaves don't really deform the leader and may even prevent any of them from doing so.

 

This is actually very true. When you tie enough FG knot, you begin to observe that when the line diameter are close to each other, say 50lbs braid to 12 lbs leader, the extra wraps are counterproductive. While soft braid will always bite down on soft mono no matter how many wraps, stiff and slick braid like Nanofil will have a hard time biting into smaller and stiffer flurocarbon. It needs more than 12 wraps per leg but too many and you will have a hard time drawing the Nanofil tight enough to bite in to the thinner mono. It tends to slide instead of tightening itself and biting down and gripping the mono/fluro leader.

[aquaholik]

If you are going to invest the time to do the knot then here's my suggestion for doing it correctly. You can use any method to do your weave of the braid over the mono.

1. Exactly ONE locking half hitch.

2. Glove tightened and you will see the color change on the braid.

3. Add a centimeter or two of insurance with alternating half hitches

4. Trim mono flush

5. Build a ramp to ease the leader back in past the tip guide.

 

Skip 5 if you don't reel the leader past the tip guide.

[Mike L]

My advise for what its worth, is to tie what you have confidence in. If you lose that pick another, there are a dozen line to line knots to choose from. Tie it right and you're good. 

Sometimes the old tried and true is better than all this "new and improved" way to do the same thing with the same results.

 

Mike 

[tkunk]

Just wanted to follow up.  I followed MassYak85's advice about tying a bunch of extra overhand knots at the end, and everything's worked perfectly.  I've had dozens of bad snags where I had to break the line and caught a bunch of good sized bass and some big pike and sheepshead, and the FG knot's never broken.