Global Moderator Mike L Posted May 19, 2016 Global Moderator Posted May 19, 2016 Just signed up for icast, hopefully I can get some there. If I do I will be on the water before I get home! Mike 1 Quote
primetime Posted May 20, 2016 Posted May 20, 2016 I like the smell...I picked up a bunch from a local store in bulk and they seem to tear easy but that is just how it is with all good swimbaits I think....Or maybe short strikers just pull of tails since I have had issues with the Kalins as well losing tails, but they are also extra fat... I can't tell the difference anymore, there are so many brands making copies of the Keitechs and They all have some little difference, I like the sizes of the SK version, I also like how they pack them since Bent tails is always an issue when jamming them in bags, but keitech has invaded the sporting good isles and are usually buy one get one 50% off and start out with a lower price than the SK and other brands... I want to try the Culprit but can't drop the money since I have way too many swimbaits I need to use, but they look awesome and seem to have a new design not copied, I was amazed at how they looked in person and have to be good since I have never fished a bad Culprit bait and they have finally got their game going in the last few years with 3-4 winning baits.... SK makes a good bait, so I am sure they will work as good as any, they would be stupid to not jump on the ringed swimbait trend before it goes back to the hollow body or shad body in a few years....It seems like yesterday the Money Minnow style swimbait was the ticket, now I leave my hollow bellies at home... 1 Quote
Heron Posted May 20, 2016 Posted May 20, 2016 Competition is good, sure. But I've always considered these to be a let down. The Rage tail line of baits have an established reputation for great innovation. But this time, they've decided to just copy someone else's product rather than creating something with some level of originality. 4 Quote
primetime Posted May 20, 2016 Posted May 20, 2016 19 minutes ago, Heron said: Competition is good, sure. But I've always considered these to be a let down. The Rage tail line of baits have an established reputation for great innovation. But this time, they've decided to just copy someone else's product rather than creating something with some level of originality. If you and I were the owner's of Strike King....We would not think twice since every other company has already knocked off the Original design so it would almost be silly for Strike King to not make a version since any bait they make ends up getting marketed better than all the others, and I have no problem with it...Plenty of companies have copied some of their baits and lures, and I can't blame them for taking advantage of a trend...In a way it is good for Keitech that SK is going to be putting these all over TV etc...People will look them up and will probably by a pack of Keitechs as well... I agree with your point, however since Keitech has never really put a marketing plan forward, they made it by word of mouth for the most part, I think they are actually selling more baits now that big name companies are copying them...The Fact Dicks Sporting goods is carrying Keitech is a good sign, I am sure the SK baits will be popular at first and then will slow down like many baits... I always felt that the Lake Fork Flipper was the first beaver style bait with a flange but then again I also though Culprit made the first Punch Skirt in the 80's...If you don't pay for the patent or can't, it is hard to make it in any industry these days...You have to give it to Strike King.... They Market Bass lures and baits better than any other company, it seems they are being used on every TV show, Every pro has a sticker on etc...So they are investing in their brand and call me crazy but I have noticed that when I stop by certain shops they have really good SK baits on clearance in good colors..I wonder if people are starting to go with the Havoc, Zoom, and Yum which have all gone in the other direction, make a good bait, and if you have a $10 bill, you can get 3x the amount and I wonder if that is hurting Strike King since they ask a premium for their baits, not alot of plastic in a bag of dream shots for $6....All good, I do love me some Rage Craws, Menace Grubs, Rodents, big worms and I like the goby for saltwater which I think they stopped making... 1 Quote
S. Sass Posted May 20, 2016 Posted May 20, 2016 On 5/19/2016 at 7:44 PM, Wildbillb said: This just doesn't look very talented and creative in any way except to move in on another bait companies bread and butter. You hang that picture up in any court room and you will be hard pressed to find a jury (unless the jury is blind) to say someone didn't copy someone else work. Only a elitist bass fisherman and not even all of them will commit to saying that isn't a copy. I know I know its been going on in the bait industry its a cat n mouse bs game etc. But seriously is this the best SK could come up with? I guess it just irritates me that this is what business has come to. Just dirty in my book and sure some others have done the same but since when did two wrongs make either right. Put yourself on the receiving end of some stunt like this and I bet those who think its all fair etc would have a 180 view when it was their $ on the line. SK can add to here 2016 - Copied the Keitech FAT Swing Impact but with our great innovation we reversed the ribs, lengthened the hook slot, and shortened the bait by .05 inches With Over 2,600 Strike King Brand SKUs we ran out of ideas so we copied a successful competitor. 3 Quote
primetime Posted May 20, 2016 Posted May 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, S. Sass said: This just doesn't look very talented and creative in any way except to move in on another bait companies bread and butter. You hang that picture up in any court room and you will be hard pressed to find a jury (unless the jury is blind) to say someone didn't copy someone else work. Only a elitist bass fisherman and not even all of them will commit to saying that isn't a copy. I know I know its been going on in the bait industry its a cat n mouse bs game etc. But seriously is this the best SK could come up with? I guess it just irritates me that this is what business has come to. Just dirty in my book and sure some others have done the same but since when did two wrongs make either right. Put yourself on the receiving end of some stunt like this and I bet those who think its all fair etc would have a 180 view when it was their $ on the line. SK can add to here 2016 - Copied the Keitech FAT Swing Impact but with our great innovation we reversed the ribs, lengthened the hook slot, and shortened the bait by .05 inches With Over 2,600 Strike King Brand SKUs we ran out of ideas so we copied a successful competitor. I agree that copying baits is not a good thing especially for the little guy trying to make it, but I would think Keitech Makes more money now since Strike King has this bait instead of the other 20 companies before them who are not big enough to make a dent in the swimbait market...Almost all the baits are designed by the same engineers in the same tanks...I would imagine Keitech who has never advertised and is a top selling bait will now have a spike in sales since people always are curious to see why and who everyone is copying...It is like saying Zoom should not have made the Trick Worm or GYB the Senko since the Creme Scoundrel is the original plastic worm. I agree with your point, I actually think this is a good thing for Keitech, Havoc copied them years ago and undercut the price big time and so did a few other companies, one could argue Keitech copied the ring design from Rebel to Lucky Strike to Lunker City etc...I am sure they are doing fine getting $6 a pack and now more for their frogs and other baits that are now ending up in main stream retail stores....I know the baits cost nothing to make, but it is the marketing that costs money, so free advertising is good for everyone. I remember when people hated companies for making stick worms and that debate still get's people heated..But GYB must not have been able to get a patent like Z-Man/Renosky who was able to shut down Pure Fishing and Strike King from copying the chatterbait but that goes to show that companies can fight if they own the design, but I just figure it is what happens to every lure or bait.... 1 Quote
Super User king fisher Posted May 20, 2016 Super User Posted May 20, 2016 Some one correct me if I'm wrong. Mister twister's sassy shad the first swim bait, Rapala had the first minnow, Mepps the first French blade inline, Panther Martin the first shaft through inline, Fred Young the first square bill, and Heddon the first lipless crank bait. Heddon the first walking style surface bait, Don't know who made the first spinner bait , plastic worm or living rubber skirted jig. Every manufacture all over the world has copies of all these baits. If it catches fish someone is going to find a way to make it cheaper. Sometimes the cheaper copies work, other times they don't. When I had very little money I always bought cheap nock offs. Now I tend to buy the mid priced brands. I think it would be a very bad decision for a company to no make a type of lure because they didn't come up with the original idea. I see nothing wrong with this type of competition. That is my opinion, but I have been know to be wrong from time to time. If the idea is protected by a patent than that is a different, issue, and illegal. I'm still waiting for a cheap version of the helicopter lure. 5 Quote
Super User Cgolf Posted May 20, 2016 Super User Posted May 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, king fisher said: Some one correct me if I'm wrong. Mister twister's sassy shad the first swim bait, Rapala had the first minnow, Mepps the first French blade inline, Panther Martin the first shaft through inline, Fred Young the first square bill, and Heddon the first lipless crank bait. Heddon the first walking style surface bait, Don't know who made the first spinner bait , plastic worm or living rubber skirted jig. Every manufacture all over the world has copies of all these baits. If it catches fish someone is going to find a way to make it cheaper. Sometimes the cheaper copies work, other times they don't. When I had very little money I always bought cheap nock offs. Now I tend to buy the mid priced brands. I think it would be a very bad decision for a company to no make a type of lure because they didn't come up with the original idea. I see nothing wrong with this type of competition. That is my opinion, but I have been know to be wrong from time to time. If the idea is protected by a patent than that is a different, issue, and illegal. I'm still waiting for a cheap version of the helicopter lure. I thinks some are reacting to others saying this will be awesome because it was a rage branded bait, and it might be, we won't know till we get it in our hands, but it is definitely not all that different like some thought, the rage lip on the tail would have been pretty cool. I will wait for the reviews to come in and then maybe purchase some ketechs and rage and see how they work. This is my first year with swimbaits and I will be trying the few brands I have first before the bait monkey wrecks my life with too many choices lol. 1 Quote
bassh8er Posted May 20, 2016 Posted May 20, 2016 To each their own and some are brand loyal so they will obviously sell some. Look the same to me and this is like when SK came out with the Rage Hawg that I was already fishing from Zoom. 1 Quote
Heron Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 23 hours ago, primetime said: If you and I were the owner's of Strike King....We would not think twice since every other company has already knocked off the Original design so it would almost be silly for Strike King to not make a version since any bait they make ends up getting marketed better than all the others, and I have no problem with it...Plenty of companies have copied some of their baits and lures, and I can't blame them for taking advantage of a trend...In a way it is good for Keitech that SK is going to be putting these all over TV etc...People will look them up and will probably by a pack of Keitechs as well... I agree with your point, however since Keitech has never really put a marketing plan forward, they made it by word of mouth for the most part, I think they are actually selling more baits now that big name companies are copying them...The Fact Dicks Sporting goods is carrying Keitech is a good sign, I am sure the SK baits will be popular at first and then will slow down like many baits... I always felt that the Lake Fork Flipper was the first beaver style bait with a flange but then again I also though Culprit made the first Punch Skirt in the 80's...If you don't pay for the patent or can't, it is hard to make it in any industry these days...You have to give it to Strike King.... They Market Bass lures and baits better than any other company, it seems they are being used on every TV show, Every pro has a sticker on etc...So they are investing in their brand and call me crazy but I have noticed that when I stop by certain shops they have really good SK baits on clearance in good colors..I wonder if people are starting to go with the Havoc, Zoom, and Yum which have all gone in the other direction, make a good bait, and if you have a $10 bill, you can get 3x the amount and I wonder if that is hurting Strike King since they ask a premium for their baits, not alot of plastic in a bag of dream shots for $6....All good, I do love me some Rage Craws, Menace Grubs, Rodents, big worms and I like the goby for saltwater which I think they stopped making... Better marketing? Irrelevant. With regards to bait design, SK could've done better. I find it surprising that they didn't. Honestly it actually has no "rage tail" features to it, so it really shouldn't even be described as such. 3 Quote
Hogsticker Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 In my experience Strike King doesn't have near the quality control of Keitech or any other high end Japanese hard or soft bait manufacturer for that matter. You're talking mass produced vs massively produced. The Rage tail baits are great producers and we're a genuine design, but aside from that I haven't been too impressed with much of anything from Strike King. I think for the most part it boils down to what you have tied onto the end of your line the most, and for a lot of folks that's Strike King. I'll stick with my Keitechs and you guys can send me pics of all the massive fish you slay on these new knock offs. 2 Quote
Super User A-Jay Posted May 21, 2016 Super User Posted May 21, 2016 Interesting how quickly the tone of this thread changed. Started out innocent enough and then hung a hard right. I have not ever fished a Keitech bait. They have never been available to me here locally. SK always is. A-Jay 6 Quote
Wildbillb Posted May 21, 2016 Author Posted May 21, 2016 On 5/19/2016 at 5:36 PM, boostr said: OK, not sure why the quote in my post. Anyway..... I got out for a few hours yesterday. No luck on the swimbait bite. I liked the action of the SK. It was too cloudy to get a video of the bait in the water and it was later afternoon when I got out. I had a couple of short strikes on it, but never caught a fish on one. I did end up with 17 bass though. 14 came on a hula grub and 3 on a drop shot. Not too bad for a 3 hour trip. We will see what today brings. 2 Quote
Big Swimbait Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 On 5/19/2016 at 1:31 PM, Bluebasser86 said: Okay, had to check mine. I was wrong, there is no tail flange like I thought, but the ribs absolutely go forward instead of slightly back like the Keitech. How is that going to effect the action? No idea, but it's not the exact same bait, although it's very close. I saw the prototypes at the Classic in Tulsa. Steve was there in the SK booth with nothing but these baits. Although he stressed that these were pre-production, he did mention the flange would be on the reversed ribs also. Can you check yours please? 1 Quote
primetime Posted May 21, 2016 Posted May 21, 2016 13 hours ago, Heron said: Better marketing? Irrelevant. With regards to bait design, SK could've done better. I find it surprising that they didn't. Honestly it actually has no "rage tail" features to it, so it really shouldn't even be described as such. Good point about the rage Flange not on the tail..I am sure they must have tried to add one but it probably didn't swim well. My only point about Keitech is how impressive it has been that they are a top seller on TW and have made it into retail stores, yet they made it by word of mouth for the most part...I think that speaks volumes as to how good of a bait they have, I watched a video someone posted about their stick bait and I have to say....It had an impressive action, really good. If their Stick baits were more affordable I would love to try some but then again, the tank is supposed to make the lure look good to our eyes...We don't really know what the fish want to see... I have a legit question.....Did GYB have a line of plastics before the Senko became so popular? I honestly don't remember since I was late to the Senko Party and entire GYB thing due to price. I think Yamamoto had some twister tails but I used to only fish Power Worms and Culprit, Mister Twister and BPS baits and not look at anything that was expensive because I couldn't afford it...I have been amazed that GYB is still able to get such a premium for their soft baits after all these years, you would think another company would get a chemist to break down the exact Senko formula. I am sure a few companies actually have done that...They just can't advertise that, instead they go the 14 grams of salt route or "same as the Real thing"...I still think it is the colors in GYB that make them work so well... Just my take...I hope this helps Keitech Grow into a bigger company since I always pull for the little guys...good Points. 1 Quote
Super User deaknh03 Posted May 21, 2016 Super User Posted May 21, 2016 Ok, first off, keitech is not "the little guy", I guess compared to SK they would be, but they are a multi million dollar company that has been producing baits in japan for 20 years. Secondly, unless you just don't like SK on a personal basis, who cares how close the baits are? Do you walk around blindly thru life? Do you not see that EVERY successful consumer product in the entire world has spawned similar products...do you go back to the beginning of the hamburger and only eat at that place because everyone else knocked them off? Do you only drive a Mercedes because he pioneered the gas automobile? This argument that SK knocked off keitech and that such a horrible thing is nonsense, and hypocritical in every sense of the word, unless your a pilgrim. If keitech has/had a patent, and SK or any other company infringed on it, you can be assured that keitech would fight for their $. 5 Quote
blckshirt98 Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 Keitech will be fine, the word of mouth on the Impacts will keep them flying off the shelves, especially those that have already had success with them. GYCB was fine after other companies started making stickbaits. Retail is a brutal business, imitation happens all the time, buy what you're confident and successful with, and just be happy you have options to choose from. 3 Quote
Big-O Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 If you fish this type of Swimmer very much, you'll notice that our action at slow retrieve speeds or movement is faster than the others out there. Also at faster retrieves the others brands body and head action decreases to none with only the boot tail moving whereas the Rage Swimmers head and body continue the movement and vibration, especially on a weighted hooks. Jig heads kill the head action more than weighted hooks but they are a very popular and effective rig for them as well. For sure the tails are slightly different in angles, size and shape... a close look will give you the differences. As mentioned in prior comments, there are more per package in ours which is approx. 20% price improvement and of course ALL of our RageTails are made here in the USA and not Japan or China like so many other brands... The ribs are a hybrid style rib between straight and reverse angle ribs for a reason... It helps with the action, the texture or feel and makes the bait harder for the fish to reject after the bite. Our Pros are extremely happy with them and say they're the best, and they don't BS when it comes to proto designs etc. Most of them also mentioned that the plastic recipe right on the mark for softness as well as good durability. I like'em too and Hope you will as well! I'll try to post a recent action video for you here so that you can review the action results. Oh by the way, in an earlier comment there was a mention that flake might cause the plastic texture to be softer... Many have thought the same in the past but actually the opposite is true. Flake, like salt when added to plastisol causes the texture to become firmer. Flake and salt are like small braces inside the plastic which firms the feel of soft plastics. Of course, as the bait is used over a long period of time, the texture will become softer as the flake and salt starts breaking loose inside the plastic releasing it's bracing affect.... Hope that helps and is somewhat understandable! 8 Quote
Hogsticker Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 On 5/21/2016 at 0:23 PM, deaknh03 said: Ok, first off, keitech is not "the little guy", I guess compared to SK they would be, but they are a multi million dollar company that has been producing baits in japan for 20 years. Secondly, unless you just don't like SK on a personal basis, who cares how close the baits are? Do you walk around blindly thru life? Do you not see that EVERY successful consumer product in the entire world has spawned similar products...do you go back to the beginning of the hamburger and only eat at that place because everyone else knocked them off? Do you only drive a Mercedes because he pioneered the gas automobile? This argument that SK knocked off keitech and that such a horrible thing is nonsense, and hypocritical in every sense of the word, unless your a pilgrim. If keitech has/had a patent, and SK or any other company infringed on it, you can be assured that keitech would fight for their $. Get worked up much? 2 Quote
Big-O Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 Here's a better photo of the reverse ribs and the tail section. 7 Quote
boostr Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 I'm a Rage Tail fan boy, so you know where my money is going... 2 Quote
Super User kickerfish1 Posted May 23, 2016 Super User Posted May 23, 2016 At the end of the day I will have a pile of rage tail swimmers and a pile of Keitechs. Both are good companies with good baits that catch fish. I see no reason to be 100% on either side of the fence on this one. Hopefully SK will offer a dozen colors or more. That may be one of the less talked about reasons Keitechs are popular... 4 Quote
Super User Senko lover Posted May 23, 2016 Super User Posted May 23, 2016 It's funny to me that some of ya'll are so surprised by this, when hundreds and hundreds of products similar to what we have going on here (not a original design) are being sold and marketed as new every year. Rapala comes to mind especially with their jerkbaits, which they always hype up as having super special action, when they are really just another jerkbait. I have complete, 100% faith in Strike King and particularly the Rage Tail lineup; I've never tried a bait from either branch that I disliked; in fact I routinely throw most of the products that Rage Tail makes; I'm a huge fan of their baits. I have no doubt that the Rage Tail Swimmer is going to be a killer bait, although perhaps not as game-changing as some of their previous offerings. Is this a completely original and unique design? No. Have some minor improvements been made over the Keitechs? Perhaps, only time will tell. All I know is, I'm sure this will catch lots of fish and be a winner. 3 Quote
Super User buzzed bait Posted May 23, 2016 Super User Posted May 23, 2016 16 hours ago, Big-O said: Oh by the way, in an earlier comment there was a mention that flake might cause the plastic texture to be softer... Many have thought the same in the past but actually the opposite is true. Flake, like salt when added to plastisol causes the texture to become firmer. Flake and salt are like small braces inside the plastic which firms the feel of soft plastics. Of course, as the bait is used over a long period of time, the texture will become softer as the flake and salt starts breaking loose inside the plastic releasing it's bracing affect.... Hope that helps and is somewhat understandable! yeah that would have been me.... that's interesting that you say the flake makes it more durable. i'm not disputing that by any means, but it's been my personal perception all along. i do wonder if that's because most of my soft plastics have been removed from their original packaging and stored in a plano container? 1 Quote
CarolinaBoy4Life Posted May 23, 2016 Posted May 23, 2016 A slight altering or improvement can make all the difference in action and presentation. Not to say keitech has any issues with their bait but we all know ragetail is and has always been quality and action not seen in other baits. The only complaint I've ever heard about ragetail baits is the softness and not lasting quite as long as other baits fish per fish wise. Now to be honest thats not an issue with me. I have always caught way more fish on ragetail than any other plastic. Would I rather have a bait that is extremely versatile and a fish catching machine that sacrifices just a bit in durability for the unique action it brings or would I rather have a durable as all get out bait that does not have the action nor the fish drawing/catching power? Obvious answer for me. I use ragetail along with gambler, d&m baits, and reaction innovations for one reason, design, and performance. I have no doubt the rage swimmers will give me the same confidence and gain my loyalty 3 Quote
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