Elite Series may pull out of Potomac tourney

[BrianinMD]

Well the fiasco continues, after putting in catch and release areas on the Potomac and Upper Bay the state has put in requirements for tourneys allowing only 1 fish over 15inches. This is only for tourney's, meat fisherman can still keep 5 over that length. With this announcement it appears BASS will pull the Elite series tourney and move it somewhere else. The limit on tourneys is only for tournaments launching from Maryland, if you launch from Virginia you do not have to follow it.

[S. Sass]

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject but why are they being so strict on tournament fishing? Has there been a problem? Just curious as the rule seems a little dumb. 

[BrianinMD]

The tidal Potomac has been on a decline for a few years now. There is one particular person who has a thing against tournaments. Recently someone close to him was put in a role which influences regulations. So now there are these rules being put forth. 

These things are not dealing with the actual problems of major loss of crucial grass beds or discharges of harmful substances into the river. Due to someone's personal vendetta against tourneys. The state of Maryland will lose money, businesses around the ramps will lose business.

[Turtle135]

1 minute ago, S. Sass said:

Please excuse my ignorance on this subject but why are they being so strict on tournament fishing? Has there been a problem? Just curious as the rule seems a little dumb. 

The largemouth bass fishing on the Potomac River has been on the decline for the past 5-6 seasons. It used to be one of the best tidal bass fisheries in the country. There is much debate on the cause of the decline. Water quality and the loss of aquatic vegetation are the most frequently cited reasons.

This is just my personal opinion but it seems that it is easier for the Maryland DNR to enact regulations to restrict fishing than it is for Maryland or Virginia to actually clean up the water and get the grass healthy again.

 

[S. Sass]

Ahh sad to hear. Seems we see things like this way to often. Reminds me of our great government getting in bed with the insurance companies instead of regulating them to make insurance affordable. Always seems we put bandaids on huge gaping wounds as if that solves the problem. 

[Darren.]

I imagine if the Elite switched to an MLF type
tourney, this would be no issue as all fish are
caught, weighed, released at the boat.

Personally, I enjoy that format much more over
the other events...

[Logan S]

The Elites or any other 100+ boat tournament trail won't be implementing MLF style rules anytime soon for full-field events.  I really enjoy MLF also...But it's a made-for-TV product and the issues that could potentially arise from 100+ scales to calibrate, 100+ officials, 100+ other things are going to make it hard for the top level tours to adopt it.  

Back to the Potomac:

This new slot 'rule' is not a regulation at all, it's a stipulation on a tournament permit.  Permits have been required for the past few years for any tournament in MD and they attached this 'rule' to the permit application.  So if you are not in a tournament you are still free to catch and kill/eat 5 bass over 15".  The reason DNR did it this way is because they didn't want to go through the long and potentially difficult process of actually changing or creating a new regulation...And because they likely knew it wouldn't hold up to scrutiny (my assumption), since VA and DC are not on board with it.  Joe Love confirmed to our club that it can not and will not be enforced at VA or DC ramps.  

There is a local guide outfit that has a long history on the river, in the last 8-10 years or so they have become increasingly anti-tournament.  It's to the point where they openly chastise tournaments and tournament anglers on their weekly fishing reports.  One member of that organization was put in a high position with the MD DNR Tidal Bass management program in mid-February.  IMO that's a pretty obvious conflict of interest given the long history of anti-tournament behavior.  Since that time we've had the C&R only zones and now this slot rule, both directly targeting tournament anglers (one explicitly, one implied).

I'm not blind enough to think that tournaments have zero effect on the bass fishery.  Especially in the last few years where the amount of fishable water has been significantly reduced due to the lack of grass...Areas are getting fished harder.  But I don't believe it to be the primary cause or even a significant part of the issue.  Something or multiple somethings happened to kill off a large percentage of the grass...Not talking about a few acres either, there are many MILES of grassbeds that are gone.  But as of right now, I've seen ZERO official explanation or effort to address this issue.  There are also commercial fishing operations that are having an effect on the river.  To their credit, the same guide outfit that is opposed to tournaments is also very vocal against these practices...So I do share that concern with them.  None of these other issues have made it to the chopping block, only tournaments...

I'm not a biologist or a policy maker, just a guy that's spent an awful lot of time on the tidal Potomac over the past 15 years.

 

[poebassin]

Found the link to the memo that was released last week regarding the changes. I have a BFL on the Potomac next month but it looks like they're specifically looking at tournaments between 06/16/16 to the end of October.

http://dnr2.maryland.gov/fisheries/Documents/Tidal_Bass_Action_Memo_031516.pdf

 

[MDBowHunter]

13 hours ago, Darren. said:

I imagine if the Elite switched to an MLF type
tourney, this would be no issue as all fish are
caught, weighed, released at the boat.

Personally, I enjoy that format much more over
the other events...

IMHO they should all go to this format.

[Bluebasser86]

If they went to a MLF style it would completely kill off the need for a weigh in, which loses all the crowds at weigh ins and a lot of money will go with it. Live weigh ins aren't going away anytime soon. 

[Darren.]

2 minutes ago, Bluebasser86 said:

If they went to a MLF style it would completely kill off the need for a weigh in, which loses all the crowds at weigh ins and a lot of money will go with it. Live weigh ins aren't going away anytime soon. 

I agree with this. It's an economics thing.

Just prefer MLF format myself.

[Munkin]

13 hours ago, Logan S said:

The Elites or any other 100+ boat tournament trail won't be implementing MLF style rules anytime soon for full-field events.  I really enjoy MLF also...But it's a made-for-TV product and the issues that could potentially arise from 100+ scales to calibrate, 100+ officials, 100+ other things are going to make it hard for the top level tours to adopt it.  

Back to the Potomac:

This new slot 'rule' is not a regulation at all, it's a stipulation on a tournament permit.  Permits have been required for the past few years for any tournament in MD and they attached this 'rule' to the permit application.  So if you are not in a tournament you are still free to catch and kill/eat 5 bass over 15".  The reason DNR did it this way is because they didn't want to go through the long and potentially difficult process of actually changing or creating a new regulation...And because they likely knew it wouldn't hold up to scrutiny (my assumption), since VA and DC are not on board with it.  Joe Love confirmed to our club that it can not and will not be enforced at VA or DC ramps.  

There is a local guide outfit that has a long history on the river, in the last 8-10 years or so they have become increasingly anti-tournament.  It's to the point where they openly chastise tournaments and tournament anglers on their weekly fishing reports.  One member of that organization was put in a high position with the MD DNR Tidal Bass management program in mid-February.  IMO that's a pretty obvious conflict of interest given the long history of anti-tournament behavior.  Since that time we've had the C&R only zones and now this slot rule, both directly targeting tournament anglers (one explicitly, one implied).

I'm not blind enough to think that tournaments have zero effect on the bass fishery.  Especially in the last few years where the amount of fishable water has been significantly reduced due to the lack of grass...Areas are getting fished harder.  But I don't believe it to be the primary cause or even a significant part of the issue.  Something or multiple somethings happened to kill off a large percentage of the grass...Not talking about a few acres either, there are many MILES of grassbeds that are gone.  But as of right now, I've seen ZERO official explanation or effort to address this issue.  There are also commercial fishing operations that are having an effect on the river.  To their credit, the same guide outfit that is opposed to tournaments is also very vocal against these practices...So I do share that concern with them.  None of these other issues have made it to the chopping block, only tournaments...

I'm not a biologist or a policy maker, just a guy that's spent an awful lot of time on the tidal Potomac over the past 15 years.

 

That guides initials wouldn't happen to by KP would they?

 

I have fished the Lower Potomac for over a decade and it has been on the decline for the past several years. That place gets so much pressure that while I do not agree with them singling out tournaments the river needs a break. There were less boats in the D-Day invasion than an average Saturday running around the Lower Potomac.

 

Allen

[Logan S]

35 minutes ago, Munkin said:

That guides initials wouldn't happen to by KP would they?

You are on the right track .

I agree the river gets pounded, but when the grass was at full capacity it could handle it IMO.  Without the grass you have miles and miles of mud flats where no bass will/can live...With grass you have miles and miles of prime bass and baitfish habitat.  DC controls a very small part of the tidal Potomac, but they have tried planting grasses in their section and it appears to be working.  MD 'owns' the vast majority of the river, but I haven't seen any projects like this proposed.  

I don't know what the right answer is, but what DNR has currently proposed ain't it...And unfortunately no tournament angler is ever going to trust the decisions from DNR moving forward given how they've handled it so far.  The grass IS coming back slowly, so hopefully we will see a rebound in the next few seasons.  

The other part of this is that this rule applies to the Upper Bay too and there are no out of state launches there...So tournament fishing on that extremely productive and popular fishery is going to be cut back significantly.  

[dave]

http://dnr2.maryland.gov/fisheries/Documents/Write-up-Catch-and-Return-Area.pdf

 

http://prfc.us/IRTBBFMPR.pdf

[zdunham]

34 minutes ago, Logan S said:

You are on the right track .

I agree the river gets pounded, but when the grass was at full capacity it could handle it IMO.  Without the grass you have miles and miles of mud flats where no bass will/can live...With grass you have miles and miles of prime bass and baitfish habitat.  DC controls a very small part of the tidal Potomac, but they have tried planting grasses in their section and it appears to be working.  MD 'owns' the vast majority of the river, but I haven't seen any projects like this proposed.  

I don't know what the right answer is, but what DNR has currently proposed ain't it...And unfortunately no tournament angler is ever going to trust the decisions from DNR moving forward given how they've handled it so far.  The grass IS coming back slowly, so hopefully we will see a rebound in the next few seasons.  

The other part of this is that this rule applies to the Upper Bay too and there are no out of state launches there...So tournament fishing on that extremely productive and popular fishery is going to be cut back significantly.  

You are dead on. There are other fisheries that are pounded even more than the Potomac that still produce consistently because they have the habitat. Tournaments may have some effect but the effect is negligible compared with the effects of pollution or whatever else may be killing off the habitat these fish live in. Obviously there are bass fishermen who are bad for the sport and who trash places they go and don't take care of fish, but from what I have seen fishing tournaments in many different states, most bass tournament anglers do care about the fish and do clean up after themselves and sometimes after others. 

Personally I hope the Elite Series stops going to places with archaic rules that aren't based on any sort of data or science at all.

[CaptMikeStarrett]

So catching four slots and a lunker will not work for the Elite series.. It has worked for the REDFISH Series for many years and they have a two fish limit in the slot for the entire boat.

They just need to adapt.

Capt Mike

 

 

[zdunham]

3 minutes ago, CaptMikeStarrett said:

So catching four slots and a lunker will not work for the Elite series.. It has worked for the REDFISH Series for many years and they have a two fish limit in the slot for the entire boat.

They just need to adapt.

Capt Mike

 

 

It takes some of the skill out of the game. You can catch 5 big ones and only come in with 1 fish. Who can get lucky and catch one lunker and then catch 4 little ones? Defeats the entire purpose of bass tournaments. Not to mention, viewers don't want to see that.

[Logan S]

They won't adapt becasue they don't need to, they will just go somewhere else..Or better yet, simply launch from VA.  Would not be surprised to see Leesylvania welcome large events with open arms, they have the space and facilities to do it already.

BTW, there are slot limits that do work with tournaments.  Lakes like Smith Mountain and Gaston have slot regulations that you can still fish a tournament with easily.  

[Gundog]

Not to throw the topic off of the "slot limit" subject but I gotta say I never liked tidal water bass fishing tourneys. I've seen the delaware river BASS tourney and it sucked. Major anglers coming in with no fish at all. Its so specific and so geared towards just a few anglers that you can predict who will win rather easily. I have read online from other BASS pros that they hated tidal river tourneys cause most knew they had no chance to win. I know it adds a new twist and professional fishermen should be able to adapt but some BASS anglers don't want to fish them.

[Munkin]

1 hour ago, Gundog said:

Not to throw the topic off of the "slot limit" subject but I gotta say I never liked tidal water bass fishing tourneys. I've seen the delaware river BASS tourney and it sucked. Major anglers coming in with no fish at all. Its so specific and so geared towards just a few anglers that you can predict who will win rather easily. I have read online from other BASS pros that they hated tidal river tourneys cause most knew they had no chance to win. I know it adds a new twist and professional fishermen should be able to adapt but some BASS anglers don't want to fish them.

 

Tidal is a lot different than anything else that I fish and it is a love/hate relationship. I have had 50+ fish days there and two tournaments where I blanked.

 

Allen

[Choporoz]

Interesting discussion.  Would love to learn more definitive info about the decline (of the grass and of the bass.)

I'm sad to hear about the personality towards the center of the tourny controversy.  I've learned about from his writings and had a lot of respect for him.

[zdunham]

http://www.bassmaster.com/news/potomac-river-elite-series-event-be-held-under-maryland-dnr-s-new-option-2

“Complying with the criteria in Option 2 should not prove difficult for us. Most of these requirements were taken directly from the B.A.S.S. publication, Keeping Bass Alive, and are standard operating procedures at all B.A.S.S. tournaments.”

So basically, follow the same fish care practices they do everywhere else. What was the point of this whole thing again? Gotta love it. I'm actually laughing. What a waste of time. Glad nothing changed after all.

[BrianinMD]

Yeah, they threw out this to try to save the event. I would guess the Elite series would still have an issue with things. 

And it doesn't do anything to help all the smaller tourneys that normally hold events. They can't do this option, Virginia ramps are going to pick up a lot of events. 

[Logan S]

Option 2 will probably allow club tournaments when all the dust settles.  It's essentially putting things that most anglers do already in writing.  Don't keep fish out of the water excessively, water filled bags, non-puncturing culling tags, etc....Some of the clarifications I've read will allow anglers to release their own fish without a release boat or the 100 gallon tanks.  IMO the only reason they made an 'Option 2' and kept 'Option 1' is to save face since they got their hand slapped....My prediction is that literally no one is going to use Option 1 when it's all said and done.

It's also BS that they just keep letting info out here and there...If you're going to regulate the river, put in the time and effort to actually regulate it.  They actually admitted to not wanting to go through the long formal regulation process.  These are the kinds of things that make many MD anglers believe there are ulterior motives or outside players at play.  

If you think about it logically, they screwed up either way.  On one hand, if the regulations were the result of outside influence as many suspected....They essentially got caught and changing the rule is their admission.  On the other hand, if they truly did research the problem and determined the rule was necessary to save the fishery...They just caved to the large outside tournament money.  Neither of those scenarios are what anyone would consider good management of the fishery.  

Most of us are just going to go out of VA on the Potomac anyway, but this is good news for the Upper Bay.  

[zdunham]

9 hours ago, Logan S said:

Option 2 will probably allow club tournaments when all the dust settles.  It's essentially putting things that most anglers do already in writing.  Don't keep fish out of the water excessively, water filled bags, non-puncturing culling tags, etc....Some of the clarifications I've read will allow anglers to release their own fish without a release boat or the 100 gallon tanks.  IMO the only reason they made an 'Option 2' and kept 'Option 1' is to save face since they got their hand slapped....My prediction is that literally no one is going to use Option 1 when it's all said and done.

It's also BS that they just keep letting info out here and there...If you're going to regulate the river, put in the time and effort to actually regulate it.  They actually admitted to not wanting to go through the long formal regulation process.  These are the kinds of things that make many MD anglers believe there are ulterior motives or outside players at play.  

If you think about it logically, they screwed up either way.  On one hand, if the regulations were the result of outside influence as many suspected....They essentially got caught and changing the rule is their admission.  On the other hand, if they truly did research the problem and determined the rule was necessary to save the fishery...They just caved to the large outside tournament money.  Neither of those scenarios are what anyone would consider good management of the fishery.  

Most of us are just going to go out of VA on the Potomac anyway, but this is good news for the Upper Bay.  

Yeah neither of those two scenarios are a good thing. I'm going to go with the outside influence being the reason, since research has shown in other places that pollution and destruction of habitat will do far more harm than catch-livewell-release tournaments.