Is bed fishing ethical?

[Florida Cracker2]

If our country keeps going the way it's going, we may be eating them again to stay alive!

I know your feelings. My wife feeds the bluegill and tilapia off our dock with bread and I don't mess with them just in case we need them to eat some day.

 

[David Whitaker]

Here's my personal opinion on fishing beds. I don't find it unethical as long as you release it and put a minimal amount of stress on the fish so that they are more likely to reproduce. In a tournament situation I'm more likely to opt out of specifically targeting beds. If it's a rough day and I'm staring at a kicker, then I might opt for trying for her, or maybe a male that is easy to catch that just fanned a bed. As for sport, I see it as very methodical. They can be very easy to catch, I'll admit. But the big females don't get big by being stupid. I've spent three days on one giant sitting on bed that was in the double digit range and still didn't catch her. Over three days spending hours on her each day trying to pattern her I only got her to puff some water at it once and grab the tail at one point just to spit it out. It can be very challenging and methodical and I see it as an art. You can get lucky and stick a big one every once in a while, but I believe the average Joe cannot go out to target beds and pattern each fishes personality to stick em. Many things go into patterning a bass to bite. Look up articles by one of the best bed fishing freaks in the game, Shaw Grigsby, and see just how much it takes to break down a bed fish. It'll surprise you.

[Gundog]

For as long as I can remember Pennsylvania had a closed bass season from the opening of trout season (usually in April) to roughly the 2nd saturday in June. A few years ago they changed the laws and you could catch and immediately release bass anywhere in the state. As far as I know, and I've read biologist reports from the Fish & Boat commish, there has been no adverse effects on the bass population in the state. Southern states have had the same "no closed season" bass regulations and they haven't noticed bass populations dwindling. I think catching and releasing bedding bass has little effect on the population. Pollution has more of a hazardous effect on fish populations than anything.

[N Florida Mike]

In my lifetime (55 years) Florida hasnt had any closed season on bass.And its probably the best state to catch a lunker bass.That may be too simplistic of a theory but there are so many places they can hide that there are plenty out there.And I don't think as many people bass fish as they used to.In the 80s you'd see bass boats being towed everywhere.Now Its somewhat uncommon to see one.At least around here.

[warrior1]

I've heard of lakes actually rotating closure of the coves to give the Bass opportunities to spawn.  With some of our lakes in CA rising up 4 to 5 feet a week right now, those beds must be scattered all over the place, so I'm sure there are plenty that are deep enough to still get warm, but just out of the view of most anglers.  

I think if it was really hurting the replenishment of Bass, we would have heard about it by now.

[frogflogger]

I don't care if you bed fish - I don't bed fish - it's just my personal ethos - I have many friends that bed fish and we are still friends.

[BassThumb]

I don't find it unethical as long as the fish are handled carefully and CPR is practiced. 

[.ghoti.]

The only real question is simple. Is it legal? If so, it's a personal choice for each to make.

I fish to relax, unwind, de-stress, "get away from it all", whatever you want to call it.

I find that fishing for bedding fish does none of that for me. Sitting on one fish for for three hours, throwing everything in the box at it, does not relax me in any way. So I don't do it.

It's my personal choice.

[livemusic]

On 3/11/2016 at 6:42 AM, ww2farmer said:

I am neither for, nor opposed to bed fishing. I will bed fish intentionally for smallmouth for a few days, then it gets boring because it's stupid easy at times. As for largemouth...........I rarely intentionally bed fish for them, but I have no doubt that I catch a lot off beds. Why don't I bed fish for largemouth on purpose? Because they are jerks...................you can practically park the boat on top of a smallmouth and catch them on a bare hook, come back in three hours and catch them again..............with largemouth you have to paint your face camo, sneak up on them, mark the bed with a stick, comeback in two hours, get the male agitated, say three Hail Mary's, have your hat tilted to a 45 degree angle to the axis of the sun, and try 653 different baits before one even looks at it.................I ain't got time for that.

LOL!

[Fishinggeek]

My vote is to leave a bedding fish alone. They get enough pressure from natural predators. In some states it is illegal to target a bedding fish.

[buzzed bait]

On 3/15/2016 at 10:51 AM, .ghoti. said:

The only real question is simple. Is it legal? If so, it's a personal choice for each to make.

I fish to relax, unwind, de-stress, "get away from it all", whatever you want to call it.

I find that fishing for bedding fish does none of that for me. Sitting on one fish for for three hours, throwing everything in the box at it, does not relax me in any way. So I don't do it.

It's my personal choice.

right on....  i don't know what's more frustrating to me.  searching all day trying to find fish or staring one in the face that won't bite!!

[Neil McCauley]

It's hard to find evidence for everything, particularly evidence of an intervention making a difference. Comparatively pretty easy to show it makes "no difference" because of how statistical analyses are done and how many practical limitations research has.  In my line of work for example lots of drug companies like to site research demonstrating their medication as "non-inferior" to the current alternatives. But typically when they say that I don't care, does it also make sense? If not then I really don't care. With bed fishing the data does not make sense and the studies showing it are not that large. I am not surprised they "fail to show" that bed fishing harms fish populations. I still don't do it, at least not intentionally. Pulling a spawning fish temporarily off its bed and stressing it when it is not eating and is focusing its energy 100% on reproduction is logically going to impair its success at that activity. 

[Catt]

On March 10, 2016 at 5:45 PM, gobig said:

You know what would have a bigger impact? Stop sending all the water down stream for political reasons and stop spraying all the weeds so some yuppie on a bike path doesn't have to see them.

Name one state in the Unions that has a fisheries department that rivals Texas?

Every lake in the state of Texas is man made & depends solely on stocking programs for survival.

Texas Parks & Wildlife has 50 years of research backing them!

Think I'll take their word.

2 hours ago, Neil McCauley said:

It's hard to find evidence for everything, particularly evidence of an intervention making a difference. Comparatively pretty easy to show it makes "no difference" because of how statistical analyses are done and how many practical limitations research has.  In my line of work for example lots of drug companies like to site research demonstrating their medication as "non-inferior" to the current alternatives. But typically when they say that I don't care, does it also make sense? If not then I really don't care. With bed fishing the data does not make sense and the studies showing it are not that large. I am not surprised they "fail to show" that bed fishing harms fish populations. I still don't do it, at least not intentionally. Pulling a spawning fish temporarily off its bed and stressing it when it is not eating and is focusing its energy 100% on reproduction is logically going to impair its success at that activity. 

 

Don't know what happened with that I was answering Neil

[fissure_man]

7 hours ago, Catt said:

Every lake in the state of Texas is man made & depends solely on stocking programs for survival.

Not exactly the hallmark of a healthy fishery... perhaps too much bed fishing? lol

[Catt]

7 hours ago, fissure_man said:

Not exactly the hallmark of a healthy fishery... perhaps too much bed fishing? lol

The native Guadalupe bass & northern strain bass that lives in streams & rivers, was the only breeding stock.

In 1971 TPWD brought the first Florida strain to the Tyler Fish Hatchery, state wide stocking started the following year. Over the next several years bass from California, Cuba, & Florida were brought to Texas to improve the genetics.

Texas went from a nearly non-exist bass population too arguably #1!

[NorcalBassin]

I don't target beds when I'm fishing in the spring, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm not still catching fish on beds. There is a video of Ike and Jared Lintner catching some bed fish on Clear Lake in July on a 100* day that really opened my eyes... almost impossible to avoid beds unless you avoid the bank altogether for a few months,

[fissure_man]

2 hours ago, Catt said:

The native Guadalupe bass & northern strain bass that lives in streams & rivers, was the only breeding stock.

In 1971 TPWD brought the first Florida strain to the Tyler Fish Hatchery, state wide stocking started the following year. Over the next several years bass from California, Cuba, & Florida were brought to Texas to improve the genetics.

Texas went from a nearly non-exist bass population too arguably #1!

Establishing a population is one thing; maintaining it is another.  Is it possible that ongoing LMB stocking programs in Texas could be hiding potential impacts of bed fishing on natural reproductive success?

[Catt]

28 minutes ago, fissure_man said:

Establishing a population is one thing; maintaining it is another.  Is it possible that ongoing LMB stocking programs in Texas could be hiding potential impacts of bed fishing on natural reproductive success?

TPWD has followed every tournament since the 70s studying the effects they have on a fishery. After 40+ years of observational research they have concluded tournament fishing during the spawn has "no" observable effect on the overall fisheries population.

Y'all have offered zero evidence supporting bed fishing impacts a fishery other than opinions!

The ongoing stocking program is to increase the genetics in the lake by using only fingerlings from bass that are 13 pounds or bigger.

It is a misconception that all bass are capable of reaching double digits, if it is not in a bass's genetic makeup it will never reach double digits.

[fissure_man]

9 hours ago, Catt said:

TPWD has followed every tournament since the 70s studying the effects they have on a fishery. After 40+ years of observational research they have concluded tournament fishing during the spawn has "no" observable effect on the overall fisheries population.

Y'all have offered zero evidence supporting bed fishing impacts a fishery other than opinions!

The ongoing stocking program is to increase the genetics in the lake by using only fingerlings from bass that are 13 pounds or bigger.

It is a misconception that all bass are capable of reaching double digits, if it is not in a bass's genetic makeup it will never reach double digits.

Have a look at these stocking reports (Lake Fork and Toledo Bend):

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0433

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0734

Sharelunker fingerlings make up a tiny fraction of the stocked fish each year.  Are all the others coming from 13+ fish as well? 

Even if they are, the way it relates to my point is the same.  IF bed fishing could impact fish populations by reducing the numbers of young bass, then a bass stocking program could directly offset the effect.  Even in 40+ years, it might be hard to detect any impact of bed fishing if ongoing stocking is erasing the evidence.  Is TPWD tracking success of natural reproduction vs stocking (genetics or fin clipping or something)?  That would be one way to investigate.

Texas' enviable stocking programs are just one factor.  How about: climate, bass species, age of bass to sexual maturity, spawning habitat, duration of spawn, portion of bass spawning each year, angling pressure relative to bass population, nest predators, forage base, etc.  With so many variables in play, it's a stretch to say that because no impact has been observed in Texas, fisheries everywhere have nothing to worry about. 

[IndianaFinesse]

7 minutes ago, fissure_man said:

Have a look at these stocking reports (Lake Fork and Toledo Bend):

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0433

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0734

Sharelunker fingerlings make up a tiny fraction of the stocked fish each year.  Are all the others coming from 13+ fish as well? 

Even if they are, the way it relates to my point is the same.  IF bed fishing could impact fish populations by reducing the numbers of young bass, then a bass stocking program could directly offset the effect.  Even in 40+ years, it might be hard to detect any impact of bed fishing if ongoing stocking is erasing the evidence.  Is TPWD tracking success of natural reproduction vs stocking (genetics or fin clipping or something)?  That would be one way to investigate.

Texas' enviable stocking programs are just one factor.  How about: climate, bass species, age of bass to sexual maturity, spawning habitat, duration of spawn, portion of bass spawning each year, angling pressure relative to bass population, nest predators, forage base, etc.  With so many variables in play, it's a stretch to say that because no impact has been observed in Texas, fisheries everywhere have nothing to worry about. 

 

10 hours ago, Catt said:

TPWD has followed every tournament since the 70s studying the effects they have on a fishery. After 40+ years of observational research they have concluded tournament fishing during the spawn has "no" observable effect on the overall fisheries population.

Y'all have offered zero evidence supporting bed fishing impacts a fishery other than opinions!

The ongoing stocking program is to increase the genetics in the lake by using only fingerlings from bass that are 13 pounds or bigger.

It is a misconception that all bass are capable of reaching double digits, if it is not in a bass's genetic makeup it will never reach double digits.

Calm down a little bit, everyone is entitled to there opinion so there is no need to argue about it.  It is becoming very apparent that you aren't going to change each other's mind anyway.  You don't want to get David's thread shut down.

[Catt]

1 hour ago, fissure_man said:

Have a look at these stocking reports (Lake Fork and Toledo Bend):

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0433

http://tpwd.texas.gov/fishboat/fish/action/stock_bywater.php?WB_code=0734

Sharelunker fingerlings make up a tiny fraction of the stocked fish each year.  Are all the others coming from 13+ fish as well? 

Even if they are, the way it relates to my point is the same.  IF bed fishing could impact fish populations by reducing the numbers of young bass, then a bass stocking program could directly offset the effect.  Even in 40+ years, it might be hard to detect any impact of bed fishing if ongoing stocking is erasing the evidence.  Is TPWD tracking success of natural reproduction vs stocking (genetics or fin clipping or something)?  That would be one way to investigate.

Texas' enviable stocking programs are just one factor.  How about: climate, bass species, age of bass to sexual maturity, spawning habitat, duration of spawn, portion of bass spawning each year, angling pressure relative to bass population, nest predators, forage base, etc.  With so many variables in play, it's a stretch to say that because no impact has been observed in Texas, fisheries everywhere have nothing to worry about. 

Toledo Bend's fingerlings come from the Toledo Bend Lunker Program as well which is 10# plus bass.

And yes TPWD is tracking natural reproduction vs stocking by fin clipping & genetics. Not only can they tell which female the examined bass came from but which male. They have records of a single male producing seven 13# plus females in three different bodies of water.

You really need to spend as much time studying the research data on the subject as I have & you won't be so negative!

[everythingthatswims]

Lake Anna is a prime example of how bed fishing and moving bass around is okay. There are tons of tournaments in the spring, not to mention recreational anglers who bring fish to the ramp in a livewell for photos. Very large population of healthy bass with a wide distribution of size.

Tournaments can be won by staying on the trolling motor and fishing whatever creek the marina is in.

[Catt]

1 hour ago, Centralinfinnesse said:

 

Calm down a little bit, everyone is entitled to there opinion so there is no need to argue about it.  It is becoming very apparent that you aren't going to change each other's mind anyway.  You don't want to get David's thread shut down.

It shouldn't get locked, Glen & most moderators know how many years I've spent working with biologist here in Louisiana & in Texas.

[fissure_man]

22 minutes ago, Catt said:

Toledo Bend's fingerlings come from the Toledo Bend Lunker Program as well which is 10# plus bass.

And yes TPWD is tracking natural reproduction vs stocking by fin clipping & genetics. Not only can they tell which female the examined bass came from but which male. They have records of a single male producing seven 13# plus females in three different bodies of water.

You really need to spend as much time studying the research data on the subject as I have & you won't be so negative!

I truly don't mean to come across as negative toward Texas's fisheries management practices.  Clearly what they're doing is working for them.  If you look through my posts you won't find criticism of TPWD's work (I'd say my last post even implies they're too good; preventing us from seeing any impact of bed fishing  )

The only points I'm making are:

1. Observations on the population-level impact of bed fishing are likely to be skewed if stocking programs are underway at the same time (ie: would David Whitaker's study be valid if the scientists had dumped a few thousand baby Share-a-Lunkers in the bed-fished pond?)
2. Even valid observations showing no observable impact of bed fishing are not necessarily broadly applicable to different fisheries, which might have drastically different environmental factors, and probably inferior management

 

[Catt]

9 hours ago, fissure_man said:

Even valid observations showing no observable impact of bed fishing are not necessarily broadly applicable to different fisheries, which might have drastically different environmental factors, and probably inferior management

 

The point I'm making is TPWD did not start with Fork or Toledo Bend

What TPWD started with was a research laboratory that is 269,581 square miles of drastically different environments!

Texas has desert lakes, coastal lakes, prairie lakes, hill country lakes in huge forest, lakes in plains, lakes at elevations of 3,000+ ft msl & everything in between.