Overcomplicating things

[slonezp]

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

I see two perspectives here: one from the angler's, the other from the fish's. 

When I can't get out and fish for very long I wind up feeling cooped up and end up thinking, planning ... and shopping. Nice to try new stuff, but it all takes time and work to get that new stuff rigged and running right. When I can get out and fish, the fish help me reign in all my wild ideas, and show me just what's wrong with that rigging I "dreamed up". But, when reality strikes -like I can get out and fish- the fish do have a say.

In terms of the fish's perspective, what "complicates" things for me is the variety of waters I encounter in my fishing. I have to meet the requirements of those waters, and over the course of the seasons. The stuff I own just isn't all interchangeable. I start the year with an UL, L, and M spinning tackle (little or no cover, clear water, often bright skies). I'm just now culling the UL and L and moving to M and MH. By summer I'll have dropped the M and gone MH and H. I haven't even mentioned techniques and lures, but you get the drift. Complicated? I've spent a good chunk of today bringing my tackle bag up to season, and to the waters I'll be concentrating on. Not done yet... "Now... I thought I had more 1/8oz. Owner Ultraheads -the Bullet type. ..."

Then there's my fascination with just what the heck goes on down there -really, my motivation for fishing in the first place. That leads me to complications that appear to have little directly to do with "fishing" as most people practice it. Which is why I fish alone much of the time. As my brother once put it, "You don't want to follow Paul around in the woods, because you'll probably as not come home after dark all scratched up and have no idea why."

The  fishes perspective?

It is the fishes perspective to attack a bait out of opportunity, hunger or aggression. Goes back to something I said in my original post that fish are creatures of habit and  a well placed bait trumps all.

Do we need 100 colors of worms? 100 colors of crankbaits? 100 colors of frogs? etc.

In 2011 KVD won the Classic in Louisiana. Squarebills happened to be his bait of choice...or at least Strike Kings bait to be promoted. The after classic interview with KVD is what changed me from "that guy" to the oversimplified guy I am today. It wasn't the squarebill that won the him the Classic. It was the way he fished it (He was also fishing spinnerbaits). According to KVD, everyone of his bites came when the bait had deflected off underwater stumps. He also said he would throw 3,4,5,6 times at the same stump before moving on to the next, talking about "the spot on the spot".  

If I know where the fish are supposed to be at any given time of day during any given time of season and add in the effects of water clarity, temperature, structure and cover, I should be able to successfully prey on their instincts. Animals do this every day, even more intriguing is natures top predators only became top predators because they have a keen sense of the habits of their prey.

I tend to choose my presentation based on depth structure and cover and colors based on every bass fisherman's 2 staple colors being black n blue, and white, and I throw in a "match the hatch" color. Who knows, maybe I'm missing out on a ton of fish because I'm oversimplifying things. If I believe a spot should hold fish, rather than hit it and quit it, I'll hit it 2 or 3 or 4 times. If I can't trigger a feeding response, I want to trigger an aggression response. 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

I'm just the opposite. I'm a big believer in the K.I.S.S. philosophy.  I like to keep up with what's going on and keep an open mind but I'm not quick to drink the kool aid.  I favor tubes, dingers, grubs, flukes, craws and jigs in black, white, green pumpkin and watermelon. Cranks and jerks in shad, craw and bluegill patterns, and gold. PP braid on all but a couple reels. You get the idea. I have lots of rods and an eclectic assortment of reels but a lot of that is R & D etc. 

[S. Sass]

20 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

I'm just the opposite. I'm a big believer in the K.I.S.S. philosophy.  I like to keep up with what's going on and keep an open mind but I'm not quick to drink the kool aid.  I favor tubes, dingers, grubs, flukes, craws and jigs in black, white, green pumpkin and watermelon. Cranks and jerks in shad, craw and bluegill patterns, and gold. PP braid on all but a couple reels. You get the idea. I have lots of rods and an eclectic assortment of reels but a lot of that is R & D etc. 

Other than a lot of rods n reels I swear I almost wrote that. I agree 100% I would add worms more so than the grubs, also a big believer in the K.I.S.S. philosophy. 

[Dogfish_Jones]

I lean toward being that guy, but I also understand the most important factor in catching bass is fishing where they are. My first thought on any of my fishing trips are the locations I hope to find fish. I do have graphs on my boat one in the dash and one up front. They are not what you consider the best on the market, really they are the ones which just tell me if fish are there and at what depth.

You can carry hundreds of lures, worms, spinnerbaits, fill in the blank with your favorite lure. If there are no fish....guess what? You catch no fish.  Big boat, small boat, doesn't matter, is there fish there to be caught.

i have more lures than I'll properly need or even use. Around 6 rod and reels but I again tend to use what I am seeing on my graphs to determine what I use. I'm very basic in that approach. If they are deep I throw a worm, if they are on structure I may add a jig. Shallow fishing along the banks, mainly cranks until I hit a pocket then go back and fish worms if the crank baits stop working.

But......all this hinges on is there bass there or not. You can have one or two lures and be in a spot where fish are holed up and you will catch a lot. You can have ten rod and reels and 500 lures of every design and catch nothing if their not around.

Thats where I try to help it simple.

[Paul Roberts]

13 hours ago, slonezp said:

The  fishes perspective?

Yes. They have the final say. And... fish do learn, which essentially binds us more and more closely to conditions, and circumstances. We fishers come to our borderline OCD honestly.

It is the fishes perspective to attack a bait out of opportunity, hunger or aggression. Goes back to something I said in my original post that fish are creatures of habit and  a well placed bait trumps all.

Which bait? And proximity isn't all there is to it. I fish small waters now -a captive audience- yet I can draw a blank, until I switch, sometimes several times, or have to wait -maybe for another day.

Do we need 100 colors of worms? 100 colors of crankbaits? 100 colors of frogs? etc.

No. But one doesn't always cut it. Left that behind years ago.

In 2011 KVD won the Classic in Louisiana. Squarebills happened to be his bait of choice...or at least Strike Kings bait to be promoted. The after classic interview with KVD is what changed me from "that guy" to the oversimplified guy I am today. It wasn't the squarebill that won the him the Classic. It was the way he fished it (He was also fishing spinnerbaits). According to KVD, everyone of his bites came when the bait had deflected off underwater stumps. He also said he would throw 3,4,5,6 times at the same stump before moving on to the next, talking about "the spot on the spot".  

There's more to his approach than a well-placed bait. Again, which bait? On what tackle? And how many would be truly interchangeble in that moment? 

If I know where the fish are supposed to be at any given time of day during any given time of season and add in the effects of water clarity, temperature, structure and cover, I should be able to successfully prey on their instincts. Animals do this every day, even more intriguing is natures top predators only became top predators because they have a keen sense of the habits of their prey.

Doesn't sound simple to me!

I tend to choose my presentation based on depth structure and cover and colors based on every bass fisherman's 2 staple colors being black n blue, and white, and I throw in a "match the hatch" color. Who knows, maybe I'm missing out on a ton of fish because I'm oversimplifying things. If I believe a spot should hold fish, rather than hit it and quit it, I'll hit it 2 or 3 or 4 times. If I can't trigger a feeding response, I want to trigger an aggression response. 

Good tack. But... it doesn't always work. Something's up with those fish... (circular reference)^^^

Doesn't sound all that oversimplified to me! I remember oversimplification: it was a Band Aid box some 50 years ago that held all my precious fishing tackle.

I agree with you that there is a difference between shopping/collecting/OCD and what the fishing requires on any given... hour. And I understand and appreciate your sane approach to your fishing. I think we all come to that over time, although age may have something to do with it too. The more stuff I acquire the more work it all becomes, and at some point the catch rates are not commensurate.

[WPCfishing]

I think it was one of the Classic's that was won using a Wopper Plopper. I didn't buy one! 

I've been through my share of rods though.. 

[slonezp]

16 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

 

 

30 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

Doesn't sound all that oversimplified to me! I remember oversimplification: it was a Band Aid box some 50 years ago that held all my precious fishing tackle.

I agree with you that there is a difference between shopping/collecting/OCD and what the fishing requires on any given... hour. And I understand and appreciate your sane approach to your fishing. I think we all come to that over time, although age may have something to do with it too. The more stuff I acquire the more work it all becomes, and at some point the catch rates are not commensurate.

It is quite simple (I didn't say easy) because more often than not, fish are predictable. They are instinctual.

Why spend time fishing structure and cover or fishing water temps or clarity if fish were not predictable?

A fish has 2 basic instincts. To survive and to procreate. 11 months out of the year all they do is figure out where to get the next meal and prevent being another fishes dinner. I do believe bass have the ability to learn and mature.

If we fish cover, structure, transitions, and current/breaks we are bound to catch fish. Simple. If there is 1 tree on a 1 acre flat, odds are it holds fish. If there are 100 trees on a 1 acre flat, odds are there are fish on one or more of those trees. Simple but not easy.

If a bass is in feeding mode I believe the bait type matters even less as long as it's in the strike zone. Simple. Up north I've caught bass on jigs that are spitting up baitfish and on cranks that are spitting up crawfish. Down south I've caught bass that are actively feeding on schooling shad where both myself and my partner are using 2 different baits of different colors, both of us being successful in picking off bass.

If the bass are not actively feeding, give them an opportunity or tick them off. During bluebird skies, look for shade. Simple. The fish is not feeding, just trying to stay cool. Give it the opportunity for an easy meal or aggravate it. (here's where I think technique and "match the hatch" come into play) Simple.

Overcomplicating is not only about collecting baits. I'm also talking about the guy who picks up another rod after 3 casts because he didn't catch anything on those 3 casts. There are plenty of those guys out there. Or as I mentioned originally, the guy that makes, what I'll call, useless modifications because he can't catch fish.

I am confident that in most situations, if the fisherman can find the fish, the rest is simple

 

 

 

[Paul Roberts]

1 hour ago, slonezp said:

I am confident that in most situations, if the fisherman can find the fish, the rest is simple

So... when you get skunked or do poorly (presuming you are mortal) it's bc you couldn't "find" the fish? 

Ever been skunked on a pond?

Ever done this?: Cast into a known pod of fish -best examples are in confined spots- caught a few, then got none? Then switched lures and caught a couple more? Then got none. Then switched again and caught another?

Ever done any sight fishing? Ever seen a lot of bass, but couldn't catch one?

[slonezp]

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

So... when you get skunked or do poorly (presuming you are mortal) it's bc you couldn't "find" the fish? 

Ever been skunked on a pond?

Ever done this?: Cast into a known pod of fish -best examples are in confined spots- caught a few, then got none? Then switched lures and caught a couple more? Then got none. Then switched again and caught another?

Ever done any sight fishing? Ever seen a lot of bass, but couldn't catch one?

I don't bed fish and the majority of the water I fish is stained with maybe 3ft of visibility. I don't pond fish, haven't shore fished in almost 20 years. As far a sight fishing in gin clear water, I believe if I can see them, they can see me. I was watching a kayak bass fishing show yesterday. Guy couldn't get positioned out of sight of the bedding bass. He got out of the yak and walked the shoreline. Hid in some reeds and pulled both the male and female off the bed. Spent 2 hours doing it.

As far as schooling bass, if you are releasing each fish as they are caught, you've changed the playing field and given the bass an advantage.  Schools can get spooked.

Again, I'm not talking in every situation. There are always variables.

[Buckeye Ron]

I started out being that guy and started accumulating quite an arsenal of gear. Ambassdeur reels and Lew's speed sticks were all the rage in the early 70's and I spent most of my paychecks on those and huge hip roof tackle boxes that I had a blast filling up.

Sometime in the 80's I realized I was buying gear because the pro's said that's what they used to win tournaments,not because those lures would work in the waters I fished. That's when I scaled back and focused more on what worked consistently for me. To this day I still fish lures I've had for decades,along with selectively purchased newer ones.

Being a guitar player I've repeated this process with buying guitars. I convinced myself that I needed specialized guitars for different styles of music. Bluegrass requires a Martin dread,folk songs require am OM style guitar,everyone needs a nylon string guitar for certain songs,and that's not even going down the path of electric guitars. I need a Strat and a Les Paul for blues,an arch top for jazz,etc...etc....

I've now reduced the herd to 5 guitars,8 or 10 rods and reels,and 5 or 6 large tackle boxes. I'm sure some would say I still have way too many of everything.

Its all relative I guess.

[slonezp]

Paul

I want to specify we are talking bass and not other species

[WRB]

Is everyone keeping an eye on this years Classic at Grand Lake?

Several top pro's including KVD have blanked on day 2, everyone of those anglers knows how to locate and catch bass. Do you really think they over complicated things......

The leader (Jason Christie)  is using a  simple 1 lure (crank bait?) presentation and I bet all the other anglers competing want to know or know what he is using. All you need is the right lure at the right time and place. Finding that time, place and lure takes trail and error, you can't find it if you don't have it.

Tom

[slonezp]

and they beat the pizz out of the lake the last couple days. An external influence

[WRB]

1 hour ago, slonezp said:

and they beat the pizz out of the lake the last couple days. An external influence

44,000 surface acres and over 66 miles long with 55 competitors, very low fishing pressure. Try fishing 2,000 acres, 2 1/2 miles with over 100 competitors, highly pressured lakes!

The pressure the Classic guys have is between their ears.

Looks like Evers is having a epic day.

Tom

[A-Jay]

When they bite we catch them.

When they won't we don't.

A-Jay

[slonezp]

3 hours ago, WRB said:

 

The pressure the Classic guys have is between their ears.

 

Tom

Like they're overcomplicating things

[Paul Roberts]

Great thread. Thanks for starting it, slonezp. (btw, I am talking about bass -although other fish could do in a pinch. Hey, you were the one who rolled in "all other animals" and "including humans"!  )

I never addressed your original question (kinda side-tracked by the suggestions that bass are simple creatures):

On 2/28/2016 at 10:24 AM, slonezp said:

So, I ask the question: What changed you from being "that guy" to the bass fisherman that you are today? Age? Experience? Maturity? A specific event or incident that made you open your eyes? Knowledge of the species? A little bit of everything?

I was never "that guy" exactly. By the time I could afford to buy enough stuff to turn into "that guy" I already had more experience with/respect for the fish and water than I did for the catalogs and shop keepers. And I began to read Buck Perry, Fishing Facts, and In-Fisherman. Buck was the antithesis of "that guy". But, IF, in particular, got me on a few bandwagons -and really useful ones they were, and still are. Certain things really worked –often in certain circumstances– that opened my eyes to possible "in's", and to the general idea that there were others yet to be discovered. (Didn't hurt that I also worked full time in the then-largest tackle shop in the state, with an employee's discount.) New things that really work are still being discovered and developed.

I appreciate the need to simplify, keep things sane. And I agree that the important things, the real understandings, aren’t hanging on tackle shop walls. Those things are merely tools –often good one’s –but tools none-the-less. That said, I'll offer a story about the importance of those tools:

I had a fishing buddy I first met one evening on a local public bass pond (J Francho happens to know this pond ). This guy I met fished two lures: plastic worms he poured himself from a home-made mold, and a black jitterbug, from a Zebco 33 outfit. He caught some bass. He was generally happy. It was a good pond. We hit it off and I suggested he stay on with me into dark. As it got dark he took off his worm and tied on his Jitterbug and we separated, he working around the pond in one direction, and I taking the other.

We could plainly hear each other: 'Plop-plop-plop-plop…' and every now and then 'SPLASH!' My sounds were different: SPLASH! SPLASH! SPLASH! SPLASH! SPLASH! … When we met half way around he said, chuckling, “OK…what’r you doing?” I was fishing a spinnerbait –able to cover MUCH more water than he. I gave him one and he had a new “in”, although he had to buy a casting rig (after trying a larger Zebco Prostaff spin-caster that promised better retrieve speeds and cranking power that...didn’t pan out). Over time I introduced him to the venerable Rapala, the Zara, crankbaits (the Big O), a lipless crank (Spot), swimming worms, the jig-n-pig, and others. I showed him how under bright sun a translucent worm could catch them while our esteemed black failed. By the end of that summer he had up-graded to both a good quality casting and spinning rig and had a much larger tackle box. Then I showed him how deadly UL fishing (what we now call “finesse fishing”) could be … .

Can we buy success, satisfaction, and happiness? That’s a good question, but it’s definitely not even close to the first ones that need to be asked. I'm sure that this is exactly where you are coming from (although I'm still not in agreement that bass can be waved off as "simple", even entirely "instinctual").

[Western-Mass-Bass]

On 2/28/2016 at 1:52 PM, roadwarrior said:

Well, I am definitely "that guy". Man, i can hardly fish with lures that don't compliment my rod, reel and line! I love technique specific gear, too! So what? Fishing is my hobby, my passion and I am a collector. I think I might actually fish 5% of my lures, but probably not. Does that mean I didn't "need" the Next Big Thing?  Gotta have it!

 

ROGER THAT!!!!  A perfect description of myself as well

[slonezp]

3 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

Great thread. Thanks for starting it, slonezp. (btw, I am talking about bass -although other fish could do in a pinch. Hey, you were the one who rolled in "all other animals" and "including humans"!  ).

Reason I specified bass is I've taken up walleye fishing the past few years and from my observation they are more color and light sensitive.

[Attila]

Very cool thread.

I used to be that guy when I was younger...now I reverted to UL fishing due to a hand injury which has finally healed.  Now I've taken a closer look at how I love to fish, primarily light lines and smaller lures ranging from topwaters to jerk baits to crankbaits.  I've decided to dedicate one setup to topwater fishing for smallies, another setup for jerkbaits, another for cranks and spinnerbaits, and a final one for frog fishing which I just can't get enough of.

I think that if you find what you love to fish for, you'll alter your possessions and tackle accordingly...but that's just me.

[primetime]

I have been humbled many days pond fishing by throwing a Shiner after I have struggled just to see if I am around fish since I figure maybe they moved in one area I can't reach....

I have spent an hour in a small pond using all the finesse tactics, stuff that always seems to work, but for whatever reason, could not get any action...I then will go catch a few shiners and toss them in the same spot...last time I did it...3 shiners, 3 really good bass as soon as they hit the water...Then I went a got a 4th shiner and watched a fish that was close to 8lbs staring at my shiner who was obviously just sitting in the little ditch that runs through the pond that is 1-2 feet deeper, and it would only stun it but not take it...After it fell of the hook and was just about Dead, it floated for about 5 seconds and was then slurped by that bass.

Some days it is tricky, and you may not figure it out, but someone else could walk down to the same spot and maybe they are using the same lure with lighter line and may do better since they are fishing it slower or whatever...

yes, We often overcomplicate things, studies have shown that Bass React to shapes that look like a craw without claws, and worms that are 4" long and 1/2 inch diameter at much higher rates than baits sold and we all usually prefer...I try to keep it simple and one thing that helped me alot when I moved to Florida was to hire a guide for a day to teach me how to Punch since I never did it in NY 10 years ago, and also fished as a Co angler to learn from others, but I usually learn the most from new People who never fish, they don't have any paradigms about color etc..They will almost always pick out a lure or bait that you never use because it is way to bright or gimmicky looking, and they end up doing well. 

One thing that works to get better...Watch how a baitfish dies...That final kick they do is important to see a few times, also watch how baitfish in shalllow water move, they dart in tiny movements, and crawfish will dart about 6" off the bottom really fast for a few feet depending on size...If you know what you are trying to imitate, and realize that you will never find Bass without structure, and bait is structure, you should be able to catch them but pressure on small lakes and big lakes is real. I fish the same ponds daily for years now, I have to think outside the box on most days to get bit, but before storms, or perfect days in Spring and Fall, they can be had easy...But it can often take a dozen casts to a stump that you know has a fish on it to get a strike...Maybe more, but there is a reason Guides only give guarantee's if you use shiners, not with lures on FLorida lakes. You can spend 10 hours on Lake Toho and not get a strike...It happens to many pro's during tournaments, finding fish in a shallow jungle is not easy. Ponds can be tougher for big fish, once over 7lbs they learn and are gone if they hear foot steps or  one bad cast that is loud and not normal. They are not used to outboards etc. so if you want to fish a bank with a frog, it has to come off the bank most days, or if using a soft bait, needs to be skipped way back in areas hard to reach....

Luck is involved in Fishing 100%, but knowledge and experience makes you lucky more often than not....I Just saw a guy land a 10lb plus bass on Saturday and he was using a Mepps Comet minnow with a swivel that was something I would use for Grouper...and was off the public dock, but Females make dumb mistakes this time of year....

[primetime]

Yes, I am that guy..I love to try new baits...I know I don't NEED anything, but half the fun of fishing is buying some new toys to try out...I have never been a brand guy, I still fish 6" BPS Squirmin worms on a split shot rig every trip, and I  still use jigs and plastics and floating Jerkbaits almost all the time...And I use Frogs, love to buy them and collect them, the thrill of topwater is worth it to me...do I need 80 Frogs? No, but I also only bring what I need, I only buy stuff when I get really good deals, and I often will let friends keep lures if they like them....

I couldn't tell you anything about lures that cost over $20, I like to have plenty of colors and sizes, but I am a freak when it comes to line...I do believe on tough days 10lb test may be too heavy but 8 or 6 may work better...and yes, I color my braid since Triple fish camo line which is 3 colors and very inexpensive is my favorite line to fish....I like to be smart, Buy the line from the OEM and not pay for marketing...Saves you money, but if someone likes to buy $300 swimbaits, good for them if they can afford it and it makes them happy....

I would rather be addicted to fishing tackle than other things, At least you can sell it and make some money...and I have not known anyone who ruined their life by having too many Creature baits.

[Heron]

You all are overcomplicating this thread.

[DogBone_384]

On February 29, 2016 at 11:58 PM, Fishinthefish said:

Getting married. She spends it faster than I can make it and uses all of our storage space.

Yup...

[RCCA]

Great thread. Thanks. Many times I wonder if they're not biting or if I'm in the wrong place and or with the wrong bait. There's my problem. Have to eliminate the chance of not having the right tool for the job. The more I go the more I lean toward it's about the spot, though.