Balance rod n reel

[S. Sass]

I hear talk of balance on rods but much of it I see is a personal feel not so much a calculation. 

I know some pro is going to say this or that is a perfect combo well balanced etc but by what measuring device is this determined. 

So what I want to know is is there a mathematical calculation to determine the correct balance? 

Is there no true industry standard way to measure this?

Thanks

[Darren.]

Good question, but I'm not sure there is a calculation
to determine balance since it IS so subjective.

At least I've never seen anything "agreed upon" in the
industry.

[cottny27]

This is the start of another argument..oh well

There is none unless you are going with a neutral balance.  Hold the rod out horizontal to the ground just like you would grip it when fishing.  The tip is going to fall to the ground 99% of the time.  If you are using M-MH power bass rods in the 6.5-7.5' (I should clarify) they are going to be tip heavy.  Tape quarters to the butt until the rod balances horizontally in your hand.  Once you find the correct weight you add it anyway you like to the butt.  Semi tip heavy (at the reel nut) makes for a good cranking rod and butt heavy (at the rod trigger) works well for contact baits imo.  Its all preference.  Take a cheaper rod and try it and see what you think.  I don't blame you guys spending $300 on a rod not wanting to do this.  

 

This is how I do it with a tungsten weight,  it's clean:

Sorry, my way is not scientific or calculated.  

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

You're absolutely right. There is no calculation and no right or wrong. 100% personal preference. Don't sweat or over think it. 

[iabass8]

There cannot be an industry standard in measuring balance because of the variety of rod companies and the builds. Some companies handles are longer than others in various models, guide sets are different throughout just about every rod, and throw in the different weight of a reel, you just can't have an industry standard. 

There are two different ways balance is asked for. The first is "where is the rod balancing point?". This refers to the neutral point of the rod. Think of the rod as a fulcrum. With the rod on the reel (achieving a balancing point w/o a reel is pointless because you don't fish a rod w/o a reel), move your finger up and down until the rod balances on your finger in a neutral position. That is the balancing point. The other way is "how does the rod balance?" This is where the balance gets lost in translation and becomes a personal preference. Despite where a rods "balancing point" is, everybody is different on how they perceive the balance. What I mean by that is Joe might like how rod/reel A feels and doesn't even notice the tip pulling down while Steve is fishing the exact same set up and cannot stand how the tip pulls down. Steve will call the rod tip heavy and unbalanced while Joe will tell you the rod is balanced and fishes great. See where this will go? You cannot define how a rod balances, only it's "neutral balance point /w X reel".  

[Team9nine]

Good answers from DVT and iabass8. There is no standard. That said, I have my own system I use with every rod I own. I simply measure the static balance point (what iabass8 labeled the "neutral point") without reel from the end of the butt to that exact balance point (BL). I also measure total length (TL) and get actual weight (Wt). With these three numbers I can now assemble a variety of meaningful calculations to compare rod against rod.

• One is the ratio of balance point to overall length expressed as a percentage (BL/TL *100)
• Another is the distance from the balance point to the center point of the reel seat
• A third is the overall build length to weight ratio expressed as inches/ounce (TL/Wt)

These measurements and calculations allow me to compare rod against rod with a good degree of confidence. It becomes quite easy to see which rods are going to have the best balance "out of the box," which will feel top heavy, and which ones are actually built the lightest for their length. I have all these plus a few other stats for every rod I own stuck in an Excel spreadsheet, spinning on one worksheet and baitcasters on another. I can them simply sort by any one particular column in whatever order I want to rank or compare rods for any given attribute. It also becomes incredibly simple to walk into a tackle store and can get these measurements for any rod I'm interested in, then simply plug them into the Excel sheet and see exactly where that rod will fall in my lineup compared to every other rod I own. I've found this system to be very useful. 

-T9

[cottny27]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

Good answers from DVT and iabass8. There is no standard. That said, I have my own system I use with every rod I own. I simply measure the static balance point (what iabass8 labeled the "neutral point") without reel from the end of the butt to that exact balance point (BL). I also measure total length (TL) and get actual weight (Wt). With these three numbers I can now assemble a variety of meaningful calculations to compare rod against rod.

• One is the ratio of balance point to overall length expressed as a percentage (BL/TL *100)
• Another is the distance from the balance point to the center point of the reel seat
• A third is the overall build length to weight ratio expressed as inches/ounce (TL/Wt)

These measurements and calculations allow me to compare rod against rod with a good degree of confidence. It becomes quite easy to see which rods are going to have the best balance "out of the box," which will feel top heavy, and which ones are actually built the lightest for their length. I have all these plus a few other stats for every rod I own stuck in an Excel spreadsheet, spinning on one worksheet and baitcasters on another. I can them simply sort by any one particular column in whatever order I want to rank or compare rods for any given attribute. It also becomes incredibly simple to walk into a tackle store and can get these measurements for any rod I'm interested in, then simply plug them into the Excel sheet and see exactly where that rod will fall in my lineup compared to every other rod I own. I've found this system to be very useful. 

-T9

For God's sake Sheldon Cooper you're killing me

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

I see the logic in your line of thought but keep in mind that where the weight is, is as/more important than the total weight. For example : Rod A may have a full composite grip but well placed premium light weight guides. And weigh in slightly above Rod B with a split foam cork laminate finish grip and lower grade guides. Rod A will most likely be the higher performing. Only time on the water will tell the real story. 

[Team9nine]

20 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

I see the logic in your line of thought but keep in mind that where the weight is, is as/more important than the total weight. For example : Rod A may have a full composite grip but well placed premium light weight guides. And weigh in slightly above Rod B with a split foam cork laminate finish grip and lower grade guides. Rod A will most likely be the higher performing. Only time on the water will tell the real story. 

I agree completely - my "system" has nothing to do with performance, sensitivity, etc. It is a very good predictor of overall balance and feel, though, regardless of the reel being used/added. Those rods that start out with the best balance ratios always seem to end up being the most "comfortable" and easy to fish with. Those with the worst just never become great sticks from a "feel" standpoint (subjective, obviously) regardless of how I may weight them. As an example, I have an old Lightning Rod that has better "out of the box" balance points than any other rod I own, and as such, from a balance and "feel" standpoint, it compares right up there with my most expensive custom builts or Loomis'. Not the lightest, not the most sensitive, not the highest quality, but an absolutely great balanced rod that is a joy to fish with. The numbers support/translate to the experience. Interestingly, different models from the exact same line can be drastically different in this regard.

As for total weight/length ratios, that is just an interesting stat to compare overall rod builds from different manufacturers. My custom builts are right at the top of the list in this regard, and the list pretty much follows a most expensive to least expensive progression. Not in every single case, but the trend in this regard seems to be that you really do get what you pay for when using that metric for comparison.

-T9

[KP Duty]

Pretty simple. It doesn't matter if we're talking about a rod or a stick...both are going to have a neutral balance point, and logic tells you that's where to put the fulcrum (your hand/reel seat in this case).

[S. Sass]

Interesting reply's. The post wasn't meant to be a start of a "argument". I only wanted discussion on the topic. I think Team9nine is doing something like what I was wondering, if there was some calculation for determining the balance of say a stack of rods.

I understand the variations of every manufacturer and the variables of different styles of parts used on them. But it would be helpful if there was a way, something like Team9nine has worked out for him, that would work for generally speaking everyone. I would think there should be a way to calculate maybe not "the" perfect balanced rod for everyone but there should be some calculation that would tell you if you say plugged in a reel weight, and maybe a few specs of the rod. Like length, general material, and type of grip of the rod in question. Maybe it could spit out how neutral the rod would be. Maybe a measurement or distance of the fulcrum from the butt of the handle. This would give you a point to know OK the rod with this measurement to me feels tip heavy or what ever. A baseline so to speak. Well you would then know combinations that the fulcrum was shorter would be helping or hurting what ever it was you liked your rods to be.

You could actually get some precision changes like if you built custom rods and the guy buying says I want just a fraction more tip weight there would actually be a way the builder could possibly tweak the rod to give the customer what he wanted and it could be measured and shown to the customer it was actually a fraction heavier.

Or when buying a new rod and you wanted one slightly different than your current rod. You would actually have a tool that you could verify to some degree it was what you are wanting. Especially ordering online. As has been said everyone has their own "feel" so posts by 20 members of the forum wont do the newer guy a lot of assistance in that department since there is no measurement its all feel.  

Just something I was running through my head as I was reading responses to posts and I saw "balance" mentioned a few times. And almost every Pro talking about his rod mentions the almighty "balance". I think Ill start a post on backbone next. Because its the next favorite word of every Pro when discussing the rod he is using. Of course that is all subjective as heck to.   

Seriously in this day and age with all the technology its just a matter of time I think. It could be done. I am sure it will never be the ticket for a hardcore guy, that 2% of all fishermen, but something like this would sure help the 70%+ newer guys to the sport. Considering they are new and really don't have much knowledge a tool that would get them close so they at least had an ballpark idea of what a decent balance is before buying might be useful.  

Then again we could just throw any rod we don't like in the trash and hunt n peck till we find that magic rod feel as if we live in the 1800s. 

Thanks for the responses. 

[Flukeman]

This is how I know my rod is balanced for me. When I pick the rod up to make my normal cast or pitch/flip and it feels effortless like holding nothing but air. I have some lightweight 7' MH rods with 5oz reels that are a joy to fish with, effortless all day long in tournaments.

I then had a guy show me how to balance a god awful Gander mountain cranking stick that I hated throwing because of how heavy it was. When he was done adding my DD22 at the tip and a counterbalance on the back end with a little trial and error and the set up cast and felt like a feather in your hand.

I really don't care about a formula, I want to be able to endure an 8 to 9 hour tournament day or 14 hour practice day, and not feel like I was dragged behind a horse for an hour by my hands.

[cottny27]

34 minutes ago, Flukeman said:

This is how I know my rod is balanced for me. When I pick the rod up to make my normal cast or pitch/flip and it feels effortless like holding nothing but air. I have some lightweight 7' MH rods with 5oz reels that are a joy to fish with, effortless all day long in tournaments.

I then had a guy show me how to balance a god awful Gander mountain cranking stick that I hated throwing because of how heavy it was. When he was done adding my DD22 at the tip and a counterbalance on the back end with a little trial and error and the set up cast and felt like a feather in your hand.

I really don't care about a formula, I want to be able to endure an 8 to 9 hour tournament day or 14 hour practice day, and not feel like I was dragged behind a horse for an hour by my hands.

It changes everything.  

[Flukeman]

It sure does, I was amazed it was the same rod.