Ned Rig Mushroom Head Weight Question

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, cgolf said:

I know the Ned is supposed to be a lightweight presentation, and for rivers I go 1/16 ounce, but I would think that sometimes say a 1/4 ounce may produce better due to the faster fall rate, which bass can sometimes be really picky about. Would this be the power Ned presentation or just a shaky head with a half Zinkerz or TRD?

Not to get too deep into semantics, but anything from an 1/8-oz on up is typically considered "power finesse" in the eyes of a Midwest finesse angler. Pretty much the same for any jig head that uses a hook larger than a No. 1. Presentations that meet either or especially both of those criteria then pushes you more toward actual shaky head fishing or jig worming, and moves you away from "Ned Rigging". Again just semantics, but I think I'd argue that there could be no such thing as "Power" Ned rigging. Ned rigging isn't concerned about triggering bites with faster fall rates, but instead putting something small and almost neutrally buoyant in front of a fishes face for a good period of time, usually in shallow water. If we need speed to trigger a bite, it would be accomplished with a straight swim retrieve, not a heavy jig head.

-T9

[Cgolf]

5 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Not to get too deep into semantics, but anything from an 1/8-oz on up is typically considered "power finesse" in the eyes of a Midwest finesse angler. Pretty much the same for any jig head that uses a hook larger than a No. 1. Presentations that meet either or especially both of those criteria then pushes you more toward actual shaky head fishing or jig worming, and moves you away from "Ned Rigging". Again just semantics, but I think I'd argue that there could be no such thing as "Power" Ned rigging. Ned rigging isn't concerned about triggering bites with faster fall rates, but instead putting something small and almost neutrally buoyant in front of a fishes face for a good period of time, usually in shallow water. If we need speed to trigger a bite, it would be accomplished with a straight swim retrieve, not a heavy jig head.

-T9

That's cool, Ned rig is about a slow fall, it reminds me a lot of slider rigging. I do have to say I don't think about retrieve much on the water till I hit on something that produces and then I replicate it. Most of my lake fishing with it is around reeds, so I don't swim it as much as you guys do. All I know is the rig has been money for me on rivers last year and early this year. 

[etrout72]

I prefer the 1/15 shroomz head, but will use 1/10 in deeper water

[smalljaw67]

I know my rants get old but for those reading this that insist on using a baitcasting set up, don't complain when the hooks are bent out or broke. The hooks are not junk, they are designed to be used with medium light to medium power spinning rods on light 4lb to 6lb line, I use 8lb if the water is a little stained but I make the drag a little looser. If you want to use casting equipment with a heavier head with heavy wire hook go right ahead, it will work too but you aren't using a NED or mid west finesse technique anymore, now you are using the tried and true jig worm, and that is simply a shaky head rigged with the hook exposed. It doesn't bother me that many are using the heavier tackle, it bothers me that they are calling it a Ned rig when it couldn't further from the actual rig, it would be like calling a Texas rig worm a Carolina rig only you aren't using a swivel or anything to keep the weight away from the bait. Ned Kehde has a video explaining how it is fished and the specific components he uses, and that is a Gopher Tackle 1/32oz head with a size 6 hook, a 1/16oz head with a size 4 light wire hook or a 3/32oz head with a size 2 light wire hook. I will sometimes use a 1/8oz if the wind is up but I like the 3/32oz size myself, and the key to it is not to just let it sit on the bottom, it is supposed to just barely touch the bottom and then you reel slow but enough to get the bait 6" above. So onece you start using heavier tackle you are no longer in Ned rig territory, it is a jig worm plain and simple.

[Cgolf]

1 hour ago, smalljaw67 said:

I know my rants get old but for those reading this that insist on using a baitcasting set up, don't complain when the hooks are bent out or broke. The hooks are not junk, they are designed to be used with medium light to medium power spinning rods on light 4lb to 6lb line, I use 8lb if the water is a little stained but I make the drag a little looser. If you want to use casting equipment with a heavier head with heavy wire hook go right ahead, it will work too but you aren't using a NED or mid west finesse technique anymore, now you are using the tried and true jig worm, and that is simply a shaky head rigged with the hook exposed. It doesn't bother me that many are using the heavier tackle, it bothers me that they are calling it a Ned rig when it couldn't further from the actual rig, it would be like calling a Texas rig worm a Carolina rig only you aren't using a swivel or anything to keep the weight away from the bait. Ned Kehde has a video explaining how it is fished and the specific components he uses, and that is a Gopher Tackle 1/32oz head with a size 6 hook, a 1/16oz head with a size 4 light wire hook or a 3/32oz head with a size 2 light wire hook. I will sometimes use a 1/8oz if the wind is up but I like the 3/32oz size myself, and the key to it is not to just let it sit on the bottom, it is supposed to just barely touch the bottom and then you reel slow but enough to get the bait 6" above. So onece you start using heavier tackle you are no longer in Ned rig territory, it is a jig worm plain and simple.

The thing I don't get is why not work a Ned on the bottom, at least the 1/2 Zinkerz that stands up better than the TRD, and take full advantage of its best attribute? On a 1/16 ounce working this slowly along the bottom on sand flats would be deadly. For me the stand up and the wiggling it does due to the flexibility of the bait is money, or by definition is this not Ned rigging or Midwest finesse? To me the bait and a weight is the Ned, the fish tell be the retrieve they want with it, swimming or bouncing off the bottom, etc. To be honest, a lot of the fish I target want the baits on the bottom and worked very slowly.

[IndianaFinesse]

29 minutes ago, cgolf said:

The thing I don't get is why not work a Ned on the bottom, at least the 1/2 Zinkerz that stands up better than the TRD, and take full advantage of its best attribute? On a 1/16 ounce working this slowly along the bottom on sand flats would be deadly. For me the stand up and the wiggling it does due to the flexibility of the bait is money, or by definition is this not Ned rigging or Midwest finesse? To me the bait and a weight is the Ned, the fish tell be the retrieve they want with it, swimming or bouncing off the bottom, etc. To be honest, a lot of the fish I target want the baits on the bottom and worked very slowly.

You can use it on the bottom, that is why there is a drag and deadstick retrieve in the six Midwest finesse retrieves where the bait never leaves the bottom.  And sometimes the fish do want it slowly moving on the bottom, but at least for myself once they get out of winter and early spring the swim glide and shake retrieve catches far more bass and allows you to cover more water than the drag and deadstick.  Usually between the months of March and October or November I use the swim glide and shake retrieve, and in the winter the drag and deadstick or even a straight deadstick is often the ticket.  Of course there are exceptions to this, if the bass are active after a couple of abnormally warm days in winter the swim glide and shake retrieve is best, and if the bass shut down in the summer I will occasionally use the drag and deadstick.  And T-9 answered your other questions very well, take his advice.

[Cgolf]

1 minute ago, IndianaFinesse said:

You can use it on the bottom, that is why there is a drag and deadstick retrieve in the six Midwest finesse retrieves where the bait never leaves the bottom.  And sometimes the fish do want it slowly moving on the bottom, but at least for myself once they get out of winter and early spring the swim glide and shake retrieve catches far more bass and allows you to cover more water than the drag and deadstick.  Usually between the months of March and October or November I use the swim glide and shake retrieve, and in the winter the drag and deadstick or even a straight deadstick is often the ticket.  Of course there are exceptions to this, if the bass are active after a couple of abnormally warm days in winter the swim glide and shake retrieve is best, and if the bass shut down in the summer I will occasionally use the drag and deadstick.  And T-9 answered your other questions very well, take his advice.

For me I usually do some fishing in Northern WI, and it never fails that we get hit with at least 3 cold fronts in a week, even if we are up there in August lol. For some reason those fish are very neutral and don't like moving baits and are very drop and bottom oriented, they don't look up often. I will try some of the swimming retrieves this year and see what happens.

Totally off topic, but I may give this a shot for jigging up deep water walleyes, the jig weight is spot on, I think it would work.

[Team9nine]

4 hours ago, cgolf said:

For me I usually do some fishing in Northern WI, and it never fails that we get hit with at least 3 cold fronts in a week, even if we are up there in August lol. For some reason those fish are very neutral and don't like moving baits and are very drop and bottom oriented, they don't look up often. I will try some of the swimming retrieves this year and see what happens.

Totally off topic, but I may give this a shot for jigging up deep water walleyes, the jig weight is spot on, I think it would work.

Absolutely nothing wrong with using Z-Man plastics on heavier heads to fish more like you're used to and take advantage of their buoyancy attributes. I believe the point smalljaw and I are trying to make is that at that point, you are no longer "Ned rigging," but instead back to traditional jig worming techniques.

As for walleyes, check out this link of interest: http://www.in-fisherman.com/gear-accessories/drew-reeses-midwest-finesse-walleye-tactics/

-T9

[fishwizzard]

I fish the ned a lot and use 1/16oz jig head, either Gopher, Z-man, or VMC half moon.  The latter have a longer hook that I like when there are crappie or large sunfish around as it will catch them as well. 

In less open areas, I have been using an Owner Ultrahead, also in 1/16oz with a #1 hook.  It works very well for TRDs and half zinkers, and is perfect for the z-man finesse shads, it's like they were designed to work together. 

I sometimes "power Ned" and use a full Hula Stick on a Eiron Breaker stand up head in 1/8oz.  It works well, but I wish they offered it in 1/16oz but with the same sized hook.

[Bluebasser86]

39 minutes ago, cgolf said:

The thing I don't get is why not work a Ned on the bottom, at least the 1/2 Zinkerz that stands up better than the TRD, and take full advantage of its best attribute? On a 1/16 ounce working this slowly along the bottom on sand flats would be deadly. For me the stand up and the wiggling it does due to the flexibility of the bait is money, or by definition is this not Ned rigging or Midwest finesse? To me the bait and a weight is the Ned, the fish tell be the retrieve they want with it, swimming or bouncing off the bottom, etc. To be honest, a lot of the fish I target want the baits on the bottom and worked very slowly.

 

These are why we can't drag them on the bottom in a lot of our lakes. If it's not those, it's all the moss on the bottom.  

[BassThumb]

I've had my best luck with 1/15oz Shroomz heads.

[Cgolf]

3 hours ago, Team9nine said:

Absolutely nothing wrong with using Z-Man plastics on heavier heads to fish more like you're used to and take advantage of their buoyancy attributes. I believe the point smalljaw and I are trying to make is that at that point, you are no longer "Ned rigging," but instead back to normal jig worming techniques.

As for walleyes, check out this link of interest: http://www.in-fisherman.com/gear-accessories/drew-reeses-midwest-finesse-walleye-tactics/

-T9

Sorry, this was with a traditional Ned head 1/16 ounce, so I would be Ned rigging from that standpoint, but yes initially I did ask if you called it jig worming or power Ned with heavier weights. The cutoff for the technique is the jig weight 1/8 ounce and below for Ned, and above for jig worming. Retrieve sounds a bit more wide open though.

3 hours ago, Bluebasser86 said:

 

These are why we can't drag them on the bottom in a lot of our lakes. If it's not those, it's all the moss on the bottom.  

That sucks, I have a beautiful huge sand flats in 4-6 fow with reeds to swim and drag it in. Reeds are awesome cover for bass fishing, easy to fish in and the bass love them.

[Team9nine]

30 minutes ago, cgolf said:

Sorry, this was with a traditional Ned head 1/16 ounce, so I would be Ned rigging from that standpoint, but yes initially I did ask if you called it jig worming or power Ned with heavier weights. The cutoff for the technique is the jig weight 1/8 ounce and below for Ned, and above for jig worming. Retrieve sounds a bit more wide open though.

Yeah, I was referring back to your earlier post about using a 1/4 oz weight to get a faster fall rate to trigger bites. Really, JMHO, but things started getting all screwed up once people started referring to the bait as the "Ned Rig." Previous to that, when Ned just wrote about 'Midwest finesse' as a system or way of fishing, and much of the details were still pretty much relegated to persons on his e-mail distribution list (FNN), everything was pretty straight forward. Z-Man jumping on the "Ned" bandwagon and marketing "the bait" has only compounded the confusion. Would love to know Ned's thoughts on this whole thing, but I haven't been able to get him to talk - LOL,  though I know he really disliked the idea of calling the bait "Ned rig," at least initially.

-T9

[Cgolf]

On 5/25/2016 at 10:11 AM, Team9nine said:

Yeah, I was referring back to your earlier post about using a 1/4 oz weight to get a faster fall rate to trigger bites. Really, JMHO, but things started getting all screwed up once people started referring to the bait as the "Ned Rig." Previous to that, when Ned just wrote about 'Midwest finesse' as a system or way of fishing, and much of the details were still pretty much relegated to persons on his e-mail distribution list (FNN), everything was pretty straight forward. Z-Man jumping on the "Ned" bandwagon and marketing "the bait" has only compounded the confusion. Would love to know Ned's thoughts on this whole thing, but I haven't been able to get him to talk - LOL,  though I know he really disliked the idea of calling the bait "Ned rig," at least initially.

-T9

That has caused a ton of confusion and while I love Zman stuff, their website promotes the idea of the bait as the technique. I wanted to start a thread to hopefully be added to the pinned thread of non Zman Ned baits. I have been doing really well with the Arkie salty crawlin fry cut into thirds this year, along with a 1/2 Anglers choice wart hawg which is esentially a skinny senko like bait, and of course Zman TRDs too. I will be experimenting a lot more.

[Team9nine]

Zman baits are great because of their buoyancy and their durability, but about any soft plastic 3" or less will work on the jig head, or perhaps a bit longer if it doesn't have much bulk like a finesse worm or similar. I think Ned caps it off at <4." A lot depends upon whether you are fishing for 101 bass in 4 hrs like Ned promotes (where Zman baits excel), or just finesse fishing in general. A couple non-Zman baits I've used with great success include the Zoom finesse worm, tiny brush hog, and 4" lizard. An Erie Darter Jr. is also killer, but it doesn't hold up well on a Gopher head. I'm not a huge fan of seeing how many different baits I can get to work, instead preferring to stick with just half a dozen or less proven baits/shapes/colors. I'm a big fan of simplicity (K.I.S.S.) in this regard.

-T9

[ChrisD46]

Ned has a saying (really a visual) that states something to the affect of "occasionally lightly kissing the bottom " or  "lightly polishing rocks" ...Something to that affect . The visual this gives me from Ned is not maintaining bottom contact - but instead focusuing on that 4" to 6" water level ABOVE the bottom with the jig head only occasionally making contact with the bottom . **T9 or Bluebasser86 may remember this exact quote from Ned - it's a great visual to remember andd again is only ONE of the Ned retrieves - but an effective one !

My Ned Rig setup for Southern Spotted Bass : Gopher Mushroom Jig Head 1/16th oz. #4 hook , 6# lb. InvizX leader , #10 lb. Power Pro , 7' ML Fast action spinng rod , 2500 series Shimano spinning reel .

[Spotslayer]

Sorry to rehash this but I'm. having trouble fishing a 1 16 ounce head in my home waters of norris lake some places are pretty deep so I was wondering if a 1 8 ounce head would work

[Smokinal]

23 minutes ago, Spotslayer said:

Sorry to rehash this but I'm. having trouble fishing a 1 16 ounce head in my home waters of norris lake some places are pretty deep so I was wondering if a 1 8 ounce head would work

Sure it would. I use the 1/10 mostly but the general thought is to use the lightest you can get away with.

[Spotslayer]

Thanks this fall I've caught lots of smallmouth on the 1 16 head but come winter those smallies can go pretty deep what about retrieve since the water is cold should I just get on points and bluff ends and just let that thing go toward the bottom?

[IndianaFinesse]

2 hours ago, Spotslayer said:

Thanks this fall I've caught lots of smallmouth on the 1 16 head but come winter those smallies can go pretty deep what about retrieve since the water is cold should I just get on points and bluff ends and just let that thing go toward the bottom?

Don't know where you are geographically, but in the winter I usually alternate between a very slow swim/glide and shake retrieve and the drag and deadstick.  I prefer the swimming retrieve as it is a little faster, but some days you have to drag it really slow with a few seconds long pause.

[Spotslayer]

I fish in norris and cherokee lakes in east Tenn deep clear lakes  with good smallmouth fishing this time of year should I use a shad pattern zinkerz or does it matter

[IndianaFinesse]

25 minutes ago, Spotslayer said:

I fish in norris and cherokee lakes in east Tenn deep clear lakes  with good smallmouth fishing this time of year should I use a shad pattern zinkerz or does it matter

You might be able to get away with a swim/glide and shake retrieve then, especially for smallies.  I'm really not a big color guy, but if they're eating shad in clear water white can be good.  I pretty much stick with the green pumpkins and pb&j zinkerzs, but I fish in more stained water.  Steep dropping shorelines are key.

 

PS, don't leave home without a jerkbait tied on this time of year.

[WRB]

Off topic somewhat, today I was visiting a local tackle shop and they had Roboworm Ned worms in 3" and 6". Impressive colors and surprised how big in diameter the Ned worm is. Picked up a few packages of the 3" to try out.

Tom

[Cgolf]

1 hour ago, Spotslayer said:

I fish in norris and cherokee lakes in east Tenn deep clear lakes  with good smallmouth fishing this time of year should I use a shad pattern zinkerz or does it matter

 

If the fish are deeper you could also use a salted plastic to help with the depth issue. The bouyant Zinkerz might hinder a deeper water presentation. 

 

If I remember indiana uses a sub 4" bit of a zoom of other brand finesse worm and I really like 1/2 an anglers choice wart hawg. 1/2 a senko or senko imitation would work too. I just like the wart hawg because it has the diameter of a finesse worm without the funky worm shape, where finesse worms slim down and puff out at the tail. 

8 minutes ago, WRB said:

Off topic somewhat, today I was visiting a local tackle shop and they had Roboworm NedcWorms in 3" and 6". Impressive colors and surprised how big in diameter the Ned worm is. Picked up a few packages of the 3" to try out.

Tom

Saw on Facebook that the tail floats up, so they must not have put much salt in them. I have 6 bags of the 3" on the way that will end up under the Christmas tree for me. Can't wait to see the colors in person, the pics I have seen look really nice. 

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

On 5/25/2016 at 12:48 PM, Team9nine said:

Zman baits are great because of their buoyancy and their durability, but about any soft plastic 3" or less will work on the jig head, or perhaps a bit longer if it doesn't have much bulk like a finesse worm or similar. I think Ned caps it off at <4." A lot depends upon whether you are fishing for 101 bass in 4 hrs like Ned promotes (where Zman baits excel), or just finesse fishing in general. A couple non-Zman baits I've used with great success include the Zoom finesse worm, tiny brush hog, and 4" lizard. An Erie Darter Jr. is also killer, but it doesn't hold up well on a Gopher head. I'm not a huge fan of seeing how many different baits I can get to work, instead preferring to stick with just half a dozen or less proven baits/shapes/colors. I'm a big fan of simplicity (K.I.S.S.) in this regard.

-T9

Hasnt Ned mentioned this is a rare occurrence only a few times a year actually? Mindset might be 25 per hour but thats not happening regularly even for him.