Canoe vs. Kayak... A custom builder's conundrum.

[Master Bait'r]

Ok, so I have made up my mind that it's time to upgrade the personal watercraft.  I've already sold my kayak I've been in for a few seasons to a good friend, and truth be told I'm kind of torn with what to do now.  I was originally fixated on the Lure 11.5 for it's obvious host of features and droolworthy full package.  The wheel in the keel was the icing on the proverbial cake.  

 

Then it happened.  I saw a pic of someone on here's killer fishing canoe with about 8 rods lined up right in front.  It was like a bass battleship.  A 'Bassleship' if you will.  The light went on, and the gears started turning.  I was enamored.  I love custom build projects and am very experienced fabricating and welding with aluminum so why not find a nice canoe and just do it up to the 9s like I did with my 12' Semi-V??  My one concern is stability though.  I'd love to hear from canoe guys in terms of how the stability is, as well as how much the wind makes you want to pull your hair out (or not).  

 

I would save hundreds upon hundreds by going canoe as well- enough to put a 5hp on the back of my other boat, which is very appealing to me.  So what say you canoe paddlers?  Should I be concerned with stability as much as I am?  I don't really stand up at all so I don't really care about that, but I would like to hear what you guys have to say about tippiness, any other shortcomings etc. etc. etc. 

 

Thanks in advance.  Excited at the prospect of another fun project and barring any big red flags, I'm leaning hard towards canoe.  

[Darren.]

I fished out of both, a 16' Grumman, now sold, and
currently a hybrid kayak/canoe in the Native Ultimate 12.

It really is the best of both worlds, IMO, as it sits low
to the water like a kayak, but has the capacity of a canoe,
is easily outfitted, more stable than my Grumman was for
standing.

I went to the Ultimate after doing the pure SoT kayak,
and realized there were things I missed in the canoe, all
of which were solved with the Ultimate.

My 2 cents...

[Murrica]

I have seen the pictures with the rods all lined out and it looks awesome.  From experience if you want the tracking the narrow canoes are the way to go but they can get a little tippy, but i would recommend fabricating some outriggers to help with that issue and put them toward the rear and you would have the ultimate "basselship"

[Fishing Rhino]

I think you are referring to the canoe in my avatar.  Yes, it hold eight rods, but six or seven would be better.  The reels have to be staggered, and even then a handle can grab an adjacent rod.

A cord attached to a tackle bag/box or two is used to retrieve them.  They are then pushed forward with the paddle.  There is more than adequate room beneath the rods for a cooler, tackle, and the fish finder.

The rod tips all fit beneath the small foredeck and rails, so that you can run the canoe into the reeds and such without having a rod tip snagged and broken.  Low hanging branches are another matter because the tip of a branch can find its way between a rod and its line.

There are pegs situated between the rods and at the bottom of the cross member.  A bungee can be passed over a rod, beneath the peg, over the next rod, beneath the next peg until all rods are secured.  The forward rod support also has a bungee but it just passes over all the rods and is then secured to a low mounted screw.

A word to the wise.  If you do something like the canoe in my avatar,  keep a bungee secured over the rods at the front of the cross member.  If you do tip your canoe, you won't have all your rods on the bottom of the pond.

You can trailer it or carry it in the back of a pickup with all the gear safely stowed in the canoe.

That's my paddlin' canoe.  I have a larger canoe with a similar rig, but since I fish quite often with another in the boat, I don't have it mounted. I have a trolling motor and swivel seats with backrests in the larger canoe.

 

[A-Jay]

Here you go ~ This is another way to do it.

My rig is an Old Town Predator 15 ft square back - it's a 40 inch beam so it's very stable.

The only time I ever sit to fish is when I am not alone. As for transporting it - I use a trailer and I could not be happier- It's a Castle Craft SUT-200-S model and It's the best.

http://www.castlecraft.com/canoe_trailer.htm

When transporting the canoe on the trailer, the canoe is ALWAYS EMPTY. It's just easier on the trailer - so I load and unload my gear from the truck into the canoe before and after I pull it and then strap the canoe down for the ride empty. (except I do remove the motor from the stern and place it in the boat.)

Motor - get the biggest you can. Also your battery will last MUCH longer if you get a Minn kota with the Digital Maximizer already on it. My first motor had it. I replaced that one with a model that does not have it - No Go - the maximizer will add several hours of fishing time to your day - get it. Variable speed is the way to go. Also my first motor had a handle that hinged at the motor so you could use it standing or sitting - DO NOT Get ONE ! There is a design flaw with it where the wiring gets pinched at the hinge and wears out - I replaced the harness on my old motor twice ($80 a wack) after the last one I just replaced the motor with a straight/fixed handle model. Both my motors were / are 55 thrust - which is the max for a fresh water transom mount and they are sufficient - I'd never go any smaller.  Some may consider it overkill, but when you are using it as you primary means of propulsion there is no such thing. I anchor 75% of the time so this is just to get me from point A to point B (sometimes into a stiff breeze) in a timely manner.  

Battery power - I started with one 29 and then two 29's and have now gone to two 31's.

A couple of thoughts - First I never use the second battery for motor power except to get home - so I know I'll make it - it's a good feeling. Second - and you should check on this - some of the newer fish finders do not function on very low battery power - so if you're running your motor and FF on one power source, your FF will warn you first that it's going to cut off and then it will. I can't have that as I fish allot at night and I use the GPS to find my way around. I often launch to spots that are just breaks in the trees along the shore (no ramp) so I'd never find that at night with out the GPS. Despite the FF turning off there is always plenty of juice for the motor with is designed to run on low power.  

I use the Minn Kota battery box / Power stations – they have 2 breakers on them.  One for the motor (60amp) and one for the accessories plug which I use for my FF and a Spot light. I cut off the ends of the FF wires and the Spot light and installed a 12 volt car plug (like the one for a cigarette light in your car) it plugs right into the box.  I’ve had the breaker trip a few times – you just wait 15 seconds or do and a simple punch of the reset button on the box and you’re good to go.  These boxes will fit 31 size batteries it’s tight but they fit.   The plastic handle on the top of battery box WILL NOT support the weight of the battery so use the side handles to carry it. 

 I store and run one battery/box at the stern right by the motor and store / run the second battery just aft (behind) the front seat.  I used to have to stop and beach the boat to switch batteries – big PIA.  So I rigged #4 wire from the front battery up under the gunwale aft to the motor.  I bolted a stainless steel screw into the ring and use that just like a battery post to connect the trolling motor to it with out having to manually switch out the batteries – much better.  

One mod I added that I will always do and has work very good - I put a "Floor" in the canoe.

I never liked the bare plastic bottom of any canoe - too noise - lacks stable footing and with something between you and the cooler water we have up here it's uncomfortable.  So this is what I did. - I used a couple of big cardboard boxes cut out and laid flat to make a mold or a model if you will, that would give me the shape and size of the bottom of the boat. Now I needed a floor that would be suitable for the job, meaning it need to be something that could deal with getting wet repeatedly, was durable, I could remove and clean easily, and would not hold bacteria or develop a bad odor over time.  I took a while but I came up 2 part system that has so far(7 years) Exceeded my expectations.  I found a blue foam mat roll that is used to put under a sleeping bag for camping outdoors. It's 3' x 7' and about 5/8" thick. It's designed to do everything I needed, it's light, soft but not too soft and was like $8 bucks - I needed 2 or 3 I forget. SO that was the bottom section that would be the material against the bottom of the boat.  On top of that - I glued green indoor / outdoor carpet. The sleeping bag mat gives the floor it's shape and provides the insulating properties I wanted. The carpet is designed for everything you'd want for this application and it was not that much $$. Went to Lowes and spun what I needed off the roll.

Then I took the cardboard cut out laid it flat in the garage and used it to cut and shape the matting and the carpet to size. I made the carpet bigger by 6 inches or so all around so I could wrap it underneath the matting - keep the edges from fraying and looks cleaner. I made it into 2 sections (front and back - with the break under the center seat) this makes it easier to take in and out for cleaning which I only do 2 or 3 times a season and if I get caught or chose to fish in the rain, but it usually dries over night and never smells poorly.

Once all the measuring and cutting was done I used Several bottles of Gorilla Glue to glue the mat to the carpet. I put a couple of sheets of plywood down on it and weighted it with a few cinder blocks.  I let it sit for a couple of days and it was dry and ready. Other than the trailer - It's The single best mod I've made. You can sit or knee in the bottom of the canoe and you don't get wet, or cold ~ it's sweet.

Pics below ~

A-Jay

 

[Darren.]

Modding is fun no matter whether it's a canoe or kayak.

[Master Bait'r]

31 minutes ago, Fishing Rhino said:

I think you are referring to the canoe in my avatar. 

 

Yes your avatar was definitely it, but I only currently have 4 combos so spacing would not be an issue.  

 

Thanks for for all the tips guys.  Keeping the project the lowest dollar investment possible is a big aspect, so the DIY's are a huge plus to me.  

 

 

[Goose52]

I took a different approach than A-Jay and Fishing Rhino. My boat is only 11'6" and very light at a bare hull weight of 34 pounds. All the mods have to be modular and removable since I car-top it.  It takes about 10-15 minutes to rig / de-rig.

X2 on A-Jay's TM recommendation. I started with a 45 lb MK variable speed (Traxxis) and it ran my little boat fine...except for those times when I'd have a storm roll in and all of a sudden I'm heading into heavy headwinds and having a hard time making it back to the launch point. Moved up to the 55 lb Traxxis - much better. I still have the 45 lb and still use it on my smallest lakes...but always run the 55 lb on the bigger lakes.'

Like A-Jay, I ran extension cables (6 gauge for me) to the  front of the boat and they connect to a Minn Kota battery box. Since my boat is so small/light, I only run a Group 24 battery and have never run out of juice...but I'll admit that I get a bit of range anxiety on my largest lake. I keep saying I'm going to get a Group U1 battery as my limp-home battery but haven't yet. At the aft end of the TM cables, I have a quick disconnect with the same disconnect on both TMs:

On the TM - consider a Bullnose rudder - clamps on the TM and gives a significant amount of rudder control. You can search this forum for a couple threads on the Bullnose.

On your question of stability - I have to run outriggers since my boat is so short/light. A-Jay and Fishing Rhino don't and seem to have all the stability they need. Your call on how your stable YOUR boat is for you.

You asked about wind. In my case, my little boat floats like a cork and catches wind like a sail. BUT, I can deal with it. I either anchor, or hold position with the TM if necessary. If the wind gets really bad, it's time to either find some sheltered water or to call it a day. Canoes are not known for being "wind-cheaters"...

Here's some other file photos around the boat (it's a little messy as I had just landed and starting to de-rig):

Bow area showing forward mounted trolling motor battery, 6 gauge extension cables, sonar, tackle trays.

Amidships - showing the dashboard with Scotty rod holder, tackle trays, sonar, and (partially) the transducer deployment arm. Also in view is the gray conduit for the battery cables. 

View looking aft - showing another rod holder mount to the side of the seat (another has since been added on the other side), the seat, outrigger bracket with trolling motor mount, Scotty anchor lock, anchor rope can. The anchor rope can has been upgraded to a plastic job that doesn't rust...

Stern - showing rod holders, another view of the outrigger bracket and the Scotty anchor lock. I would LOVE to have a rod system like Fishing Rhino but I just don't have the length for it. I can carry up to six rods in the boat without much trouble but usually limit it to 5.

 

 

So, you have some good ideas from Fishing Rhino, A-Jay, and me. Perhaps WPCfishing will be along with some info as well.

Have fun !

 

[Darren.]

I really need to get some updated pix of my mods
for my Native Ultimate....

You guys rock!

[Goose52]

Yeah - but you have the nifty motor control box !

[Darren.]

7 minutes ago, Goose52 said:

Yeah - but you have the nifty motor control box !

True  And foot controls for steering....

But I am always a fan of modders like y'all.

Inspirational!

[Further North]

Have any of you ever considered a bow mount trolling motor for a canoe.kayak?

One of the things that always drives me batty in a canoe with a TM on it is the front of the canoe getting pushed around by the wind...this would go away if the TM was up there (I hung a hand control TM off the bow of a little 14 ft. aluminum row boat once...and it worked like a champ...10x better than having it on the stern.

I can see deploying it to be a PITA...but I'm curious if anyone has gone this route?

[Master Bait'r]

8 minutes ago, Further North said:

Have any of you ever considered a bow mount trolling motor for a canoe.kayak?

One of the things that always drives me batty in a canoe with a TM on it is the front of the canoe getting pushed around by the wind...this would go away if the TM was up there (I hung a hand control TM off the bow of a little 14 ft. aluminum row boat once...and it worked like a champ...10x better than having it on the stern.

I can see deploying it to be a PITA...but I'm curious if anyone has gone this route?

 

I was actually planning on doing just that.  Foot control in the rear, battery & motor up front.  I can make custom bracketry if I need to.  Figured it would help negate the effects of wind and balance it out a bit.  

 

I am am going to nerd out so hard on this project, I can already tell.  

[Further North]

I'll be interested to see how it works out.

I'm likely to upgrade to an Ulterra this summer...so I was plotting about how to use my Terrova in the canoe...for the most part I'd be able to eliminate the foot control...but figuring out how to stash all the "stuff" for a 36 volt TM is daunting.

[Master Bait'r]

1 minute ago, Further North said:

I'll be interested to see how it works out.

I'm likely to upgrade to an Ulterra this summer...so I was plotting about how to use my Terrova in the canoe...for the most part I'd be able to eliminate the foot control...but figuring out how to stash all the "stuff" for a 36 volt TM is daunting.

 

Yeah I will have to do some brainstorming for the TM system for sure.  I wouldn't even care about the hinge in/out so I can eliminate a bunch of heavy bracketry right off the bat.  I will have to see what the smallest foot control unit I can find is and go from there.  Definitely don't need a lot of power, that's for sure.  

[Goose52]

1 hour ago, Further North said:

Have any of you ever considered a bow mount trolling motor for a canoe.kayak?

One of the things that always drives me batty in a canoe with a TM on it is the front of the canoe getting pushed around by the wind...this would go away if the TM was up there (I hung a hand control TM off the bow of a little 14 ft. aluminum row boat once...and it worked like a champ...10x better than having it on the stern.

I can see deploying it to be a PITA...but I'm curious if anyone has gone this route?

I've thought about it - it would be nice to have for the reason you mention. BUT, the traditional bow mount TM apparatus is a bit too much for a 34 pound, 11'6" canoe. Plus, not sure the foot control cable would reach far enough back to where I stand. At the end of the day - too much trouble to mess with - especially since I car-top and all the gear has to be removable.

Not quite as good, but better than a stern-mounted motor would be to get the smallest, lightest transom mount TM I could find and just clamp it to a reinforced area on the gunwale near the bow, with the handle pointed rearward (with extension handle if necessary). There are still issues with deploying and stowing the unit however. BUT, in my little boat I don't want my primary propulsion up there (issues with turning radius) and I don't want to run two TMs.

WPCfishing runs two TMs on his canoe I believe and might chime in on his rigging.

The only other solution I had thought of was to somehow make a bow thruster. Primary propulsion would still be aft, but directional control at low speeds could be with the bow thruster.

So, I've given the matter some thought...but after six seasons and about 2,000 hours in the boat I've gotten pretty good at boat control using my current motor and mounting position and I think about bow mounting less and less each season.

Make sure you guys post up pics if you figure out a bow mount !

[Master Bait'r]

19 minutes ago, Goose52 said:

I've thought about it - it would be nice to have for the reason you mention. BUT, the traditional bow mount TM apparatus is a bit too much for a 34 pound, 11'6" canoe. Plus, not sure the foot control cable would reach far enough back to where I stand. At the end of the day - too much trouble to mess with - especially since I car-top and all the gear has to be removable.

Not quite as good, but better than a stern-mounted motor would be to get the smallest, lightest transom mount TM I could find and just clamp it to a reinforced area on the gunwale near the bow, with the handle pointed rearward (with extension handle if necessary). There are still issues with deploying and stowing the unit however. BUT, in my little boat I don't want my primary propulsion up there (issues with turning radius) and I don't want to run two TMs.

WPCfishing runs two TMs on his canoe I believe and might chime in on his rigging.

The only other solution I had thought of was to somehow make a bow thruster. Primary propulsion would still be aft, but directional control at low speeds could be with the bow thruster.

So, I've given the matter some thought...but after six seasons and about 2,000 hours in the boat I've gotten pretty good at boat control using my current motor and mounting position and I think about bow mounting less and less each season.

Make sure you guys post up pics if you figure out a bow mount !

 

Yeah that's why I was saying I'd strip it to the bare bones.  The upswing hinge I simply don't need and that's most of the weight right there.  

 

Ok now all I need is for someone to either double dog dare me to figure it out or tell me it can't be done so I can let spite along with the fear of failure and ridicule drive me the rest of the way through this haha

[Fishing Rhino]

Regarding a trolling motor on the bow of a canoe.  I don't think I'd care for it, and here's why.

On a breezy day it's very easy to hold position by putting the motor in reverse, and then holding it there by selecting the appropriate speed.  In addition, it's also very easy to "slide" the canoe from side to side with a little steering input.  The breeze sets the bow downwind.  It allows you to cast totally unobstructed.

With a trolling motor mounted on the bow, and you facing forward, you'll have to cast into the wind.

[Master Bait'r]

I guess I could see that, but for the majority of times I feel like it would be far superior w/ a foot control.  I could definitely deal.  

I would also be using a hand paddle too fwiw.  Those things are SO KEY when it comes to small adjustments in tracking or wind mitigation.  

 

Im in already hot on the trail of a few Al canoes on CL.  Jacked up to get started!!

[Goose52]

Regarding the hand paddle...the only time I touch my big paddle is when I'm in skinny water, or in heavy slop, and have the TM up. The rest of the time I'm on the TM exclusively. Since I stand nearly the entire time I'm on the water (unless I'm just motoring from point A to B), I'm too high in the boat for a hand paddle anyway.

Since you are looking for aluminum canoes, take note of A-Jays recommendation about a floor. Aluminum canoes, like jon boats, are noisy suckers without some type of floor or lining. In my case, my boat comes from the factory with the entire interior surface of the hull lined with a foam similar to what A-Jay used on his boat so I have no noise issue.

Good luck on the canoe search !

[RangerDanger]

Look at a wilderness systems commander, best of both.

[Master Bait'r]

1 hour ago, Goose52 said:

Regarding the hand paddle...the only time I touch my big paddle is when I'm in skinny water, or in heavy slop, and have the TM up. The rest of the time I'm on the TM exclusively. Since I stand nearly the entire time I'm on the water (unless I'm just motoring from point A to B), I'm too high in the boat for a hand paddle anyway.

Since you are looking for aluminum canoes, take note of A-Jays recommendation about a floor. Aluminum canoes, like jon boats, are noisy suckers without some type of floor or lining. In my case, my boat comes from the factory with the entire interior surface of the hull lined with a foam similar to what A-Jay used on his boat so I have no noise issue.

Good luck on the canoe search !

 

 

That is awesome, very nice setup and the depth of consideration in every detail is impressive to say the least.  I love when people build things to be exactly what they want, dialing is so much fun and the fingerprint is a badge of pride for sure.  I am also planning on being 99.9% TM driven, but I am a big sitter though so I do like to have the option for a hand paddle mini-correction when the wind has you in an odd spot.  The only thing that concerns me about the TM up front honestly is weed wrap, and that could be a real issue with rods up front.  I don't like to stand a lot though, as I spend most of my days on my feet out in the shop on concrete floors and my back sucks.  I will definitely be putting in a basic flat carpeted floor w/ 2 part flotation foam under it as well as the front mount rod holders, accessory dashes and a comfy removable highback seat.  I am sorry to anyone who is sick of seeing the pics, but here is a shot of my 12'er that I did for reference.

full build thread here: 

 (Whoa!  BR, loving this new linking setup!  That's slick!)  

 

I will not be cutting any corners during this project, that much I can say for sure.  I run a full metal shop as well as have a best friend who owns a custom mobile electronics shop.  My imagination and my wallet are pretty much my only limit.  

 

 

 

 

[buzzed bait]

I too liked the set up that Fishing Rhino has so i made something out of what i had, but along the lines of his setup.  I took some rod wall hangers that i had and did a little work to make them fit on my scotty mount.  i can store 5-6 rods in front of me no problem.  only thing is on my kayak, the rods stick out longer than the boat so you have to be mindful if around trees or docks.  

For me, i would just prefer the stability of the kayak vs the canoe.

[buzzed bait]

i meant to post these pics on my last reply....

 

[Master Bait'r]

Boom!!  

 

Picked er up a really nice 14' center console today for $225.

 

She ain't aluminum but she's also got a ton of stuff I couldn't have gotten in an aluminum body and she also doesn't need a floor either.  Can't wait to make the removable front rod holder and put a new seat in 'er.