Can you identify this angler?

[deep]

@FloridaFishinFool might get it, and that is a hint!

 

[Darren.]

16 minutes ago, deep said:

@FloridaFishinFool might get it, and that is a hint!

 

 

Glenn Frey?

[deep]

Nope, not that easy.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Ronnie Van Zant of Lynyrd Skynyrd sitting in his boat named Bad Co. in Sept. 1977 fishing on Doctor's Lake just off the St. Johns River in Orange Park (South of Jacksonville) just a few hundred yards from his dock where he lived on Brickyard Road along the western shore of Doctors Lake at the time of his death on October 20, 1977 from a tragic plane crash just outside of McComb, Miss. when the band's plane ran out of fuel due to pilot error.

This photo is from the Pepsi Cola tribute film which had originally been filmed just before his death in Sept. 1977 for a series of commercials for Pepsi Cola when the band crashed later on October 20, 1977 and perished in the plane crash. After the plane crash Pepsi decided to not use the footage for TV commercials but instead used the film footage for a 15 to 20 minute tribute film to the band that was played in movie theaters across America in front of movies like Jaws and Sat. Night Fever and others out at the time.

Also sitting in the boat with Ronnie when this was filmed was band guitarist Gary Rossington who is today the only surviving original member in the current version of Lynyrd Skynyrd.

One thing that is kind of funny about this film footage is that it was done out of convenience, meaning even though Ronnie and Gary were going through the motions of fishing, they were not really fishing. Most of the lake is flat bare bottom and there is no cover any where around where they are shown on film here throwing some top water plugs out just for the camera only. Water there is less than 8 feet deep and catching a bass there in 1977 would have been a miracle since the water was so polluted at that time and getting worse through the early 1980's.

The only reason this film exists is because the producers wanted footage of Ronnie and Gary fishing and they simply put the boat in at Whitey's Fish Camp not far from where this was shot and Ronnie's home dock is in between where he is sitting now and Whitey's. It was merely a convenient place to go fish and get it on camera showing Ronnie and Gary going through the motions, but there is absolutely NO fish hitting anything they are throwing out there which is not surprising.

I grew up there in Orange Park where this was filmed at, but this is a little South and west of where I fished in the main river channel just outside of Doctors Lake.

When Ronnie really wanted to do some bass fishing, he would call his buddy Gene Odom, band security guard and body guard for Ronnie when on tour as they grew up together in the same neighborhood in the westside of Jacksonville, and Ronnie would call Gene at like 4am and say get your butt up and let's go bass fishing and Gene would drive down to Ronnie's house and together they would hook up the boat Bad Co. and drive down hiway 17 to just before Palatka and make a right hand turn onto hiway 19 south into the Ocala National Forest where Ronnie had himself a secret clean bass fishing lake he accessed through a privately owned ramp and small cabin rentals with bait shop on the property.

Just before Ronnie died he caught a 12 pounder down there.

RIP Ronnie Van Zant!

[deep]

Wow, learn something new everyday. Thanks FFF.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Here is the source of that photo above-

The exact same frame image as the photo above is at the 12:39 to 12:40 mark in the following film:

Ronnie sitting in his backyard next to Doctors Lake back in Sept. of 1977 for a photo shoot for People Magazine showing his old rifle he told the reporter he used to shoot gators with that crawled up on the bank by his house there wanting to eat his chihuahuas- or reporters he could scare with the story.

Greenville, South Carolina, final show, October 19, 1977. One of the last known photos taken before plane crash.

Ronnie and Linda Blair

Ronnie shaking hands with Bill Graham about to take the stage for a Skynyrd performance in California

Ronnie Van Zant and his mules guitarist Gary Rossington on left and Allen Collins on the right standing on the tongue of a Rolling Stones stage- Lynyrd Skynyrd opened up for the Rolling Stones in Knebworth England August 1976 performing in front of over 100,000 people out there... A great moment for Skynyrd!

Here is the performance:

Some Florida boys made good!

 

 

[Fishing Rhino]

I was going to guess Mick Dodge.

[deaknh03]

You sure its not carrot top?

[FloridaFishinFool]

1 hour ago, deaknh03 said:

You sure its not carrot top?

Yeah, not him! Carrot Top was only 12 years old when the OP thread photo was taken in Sept. 1977. Carrot Top, or Scott Thompson his real name- was growing up in Cocoa Beach, Florida back in 1977.

Funny you should mention him. I use to live in Maitland, Florida just north of Winter Park, and every weekend I would put the boat into the Winter Park chain of lakes.

One day I was slowly moving South through a canal connecting a couple of the 6 lakes in the chain and guess who I literally ran into? Yep, none other than Carrot Top.

Those canals are so narrow you almost have to scrape boats to pass in there and in some places it is impossible to pass boaters going in the other direction so someone has to back up or move aside usually. They really need to widen those canals!

But, we chatted for a few minutes as boat traffic was lining up to move through the canal. Come to find out he now has a house on Lake Maitland and when in town loves to take his boat out for some skiing. I did not see any fishing rods in his boat. All ski gear. I was the opposite of course, all fishing gear and no ski gear in my boat.

But Carrot Top is apparently doing quite well these days financially. He has another residence out in Las Vegas where he spends much of the year doing his comedy act I hear raking in close to a cool million a year out there- just a rumor though.

So if you ever put a boat into the Winter Park chain of lakes, keep an eye out for old Carrot Top. He respects us fishermen and keeps his skiing away from us unlike some of those multi-millionaire ski moms out there who will run you down in a no wake zone as they try and train their little Jr to be the next world class super star ski champion.

But these days, with what Carrot Top did to his face with plastic surgery and all, you could easily mistake him for a ski mom!

But don't tick him off because looks can be deceiving... the boy is pumped these days!

But yeah, the OP photo is NOT Carrot Top!

[deaknh03]

38 minutes ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

Yeah, not him! Carrot Top was only 12 years old when the OP thread photo was taken in Sept. 1977. Carrot Top, or Scott Thompson his real name- was growing up in Cocoa Beach, Florida back in 1977.

Funny you should mention him. I use to live in Maitland, Florida just north of Winter Park, and every weekend I would put the boat into the Winter Park chain of lakes.

One day I was slowly moving South through a canal connecting a couple of the 6 lakes in the chain and guess who I literally ran into? Yep, none other than Carrot Top.

Those canals are so narrow you almost have to scrape boats to pass in there and in some places it is impossible to pass boaters going in the other direction so someone has to back up or move aside usually. They really need to widen those canals!

But, we chatted for a few minutes as boat traffic was lining up to move through the canal. Come to find out he now has a house on Lake Maitland and when in town loves to take his boat out for some skiing. I did not see any fishing rods in his boat. All ski gear. I was the opposite of course, all fishing gear and no ski gear in my boat.

But Carrot Top is apparently doing quite well these days financially. He has another residence out in Las Vegas where he spends much of the year doing his comedy act I hear raking in close to a cool million a year out there- just a rumor though.

So if you ever put a boat into the Winter Park chain of lakes, keep an eye out for old Carrot Top. He respects us fishermen and keeps his skiing away from us unlike some of those multi-millionaire ski moms out there who will run you down in a no wake zone as they try and train their little Jr to be the next world class super star ski champion.

But these days, with what Carrot Top did to his face with plastic surgery and all, you could easily mistake him for a ski mom!

But don't tick him off because looks can be deceiving... the boy is pumped these days!

But yeah, the OP photo is NOT Carrot Top!

I fished that chain of lakes..very cool and yes some of those canals were so narrow you could touch bank one either side.

[HoosierHawgs]

This brings back some memories. Big fan of eating at Whitey's, still do. Just don't drink the water, taste like it comes straight from the John's. Been by doctors lake once or twice. My parents both grew up in Orange Park, mom went to Ed White High School if anyone knows where that is. My great uncle and grandpoo also went to high school with the VanZant brothers. Good times, good times.

[FloridaFishinFool]

http://www.whiteysfishcamp.com/about.php

About Whitey's Fish Camp

Whitey and Ann Ham opened Whitey's Fish Camp in 1963 while Whitey was employed in the U.S. Navy. The original fish camp consisted of a tackle shop with nine bar stools, a toaster oven, soft drinks, beer, & sandwiches.

In 1969, they converted an old storage room into a dining room and remodeled another room, that housed bait tanks, into a full kitchen. In 1970, 16 sites were added for mobile homes, and 10 years later they changed the camp ground to accommodate up to 44 RV's.

In 1988 the "new" Whitey's Fish Camp & Restaurant were built complete with a full service bar, kitchen, dining room, and outside deck. On March 30, 2002, an electrical fire destroyed the kitchen and entire inside dining area. The restaurant was re-opened for business in February, 2003. The Year of the re-opening marked Whitey's 40th year in business!

 

 

 

 

Things sure have changed for Whitey's fish camp over the years!

Back in the early days Whitey's became well known in the area for some of the best fried catfish any where around the area. Going back to the early 1900's up through the 1940's and even on into the 1950's the St. Johns river and Doctors Lake were hotspots for bass fishing, shad fishing, blue crabs, but especially catfish!

When Whitey's first started out in 63 the fried catfish that made them famous were actually caught by local fishermen in those waters, but today, not one fish do they fry up from those waters now. They buy catfish from somewhere else trucked into the restaurant.

Back in the 1940's and 50's a lot of northerners would come down to this area and bring their fly rods and reels with them and fish for shad, but by the time I was kid growing up there in the late 60's and 70's all of that was now gone and the waters were very polluted there.

Just up the river from Whitey's is NAS Jax, or Naval Air Station Jacksonville where tens of thousands of fly boys rotated in and out of there on a regular basis, and as stated above Whitey's was created by one of those fly boys who decided to stay in the area and put some roots down there.

I remember on numerous occasions going to Whitey's to eat that U.S. Navy military boats, sometimes gun boats that did river security for the Navy base, would come down the river and into Doctors Lake and tie up at the docks at Whitey's fish camp.

In Sept. 1977 when Ronnie Van Zant took the film crew to Whitey's and put his boat in the lake there to pretend to fish for the camera, I am really surprised that when Ronnie cast his top water plug out there that the polluted water did not eat right through his line!

The problem the river had in that area was one of accumulated chemicals and waste. The St. Johns river flows north through Florida for some 310 miles before emptying out into the Atlantic Ocean. Where Whitey's is located is less than 30 miles from the outflow of the river into the ocean, so as the water flows north to this area through nearly 300 miles of Florida, it picked up ever increasing amounts of waste, sewage, farm run off, fertilizers, chemicals, flowed past Palatka's paper mills where it really got nasty, and all of this increasingly polluted waters flowed right straight to Jacksonville and the Orange Park area where this was filmed in 1977 as the river pollution was reaching its peak which actually happened in the early 1980's.

So in 1977 when this was filmed, the poisonous river was on the upswing and getting worse which is precisely why when Ronnie Van Zant really wanted to do some fishing, rather than pretend to fish Doctors Lake he would haul his boat into the Ocala National Forest and fish untouched lakes in the backwoods that had no pollution.

The sad truth of this river back then, but today it is much better because of decades of efforts to clean it up have made a world of difference, but I still avoid fishing it up there. Today I prefer to fish this river over 140 miles South of Orange Park where the river is much cleaner and natural and a bass fishing heaven on earth!

If you go to Whitey's today it is not much of a fish camp any longer. It has turned into party central. It is now mostly pleasure craft boaters and restaurant/bar atmosphere with live bands playing there. The bait and tackle shop has gotten smaller and smaller over the years and may not even be there any more I'm not sure, but the focus is now on being party central.

I'd bet old Ronnie if he were still alive today would not like the change as he wrote lyrics to one of his songs about "I can see the concrete slowly creeping, lord take me and mine before that time comes".

Not much of a fish camp any longer! Below is an image of the very same boat ramp Ronnie Van Zant used back in Sept. 1977 to launch his boat into Doctors Lake for the last time of his life with a film crew tagging along too.

To give some location perspective to this thread... in the following image of Doctors Lake, Look down at the bottom of the image and you can see Swimming Pen Creek. Do you see the bridge crossing the creek? That is state road 220 crossing the creek right there. Whitey's fish camp is located on the east side of the creek right next to that bridge on the north side. This is where Ronnie Van Zant loved to eat and put his boat into the lake right there.

If you follow the map from Whitey's to the South west side of Doctors Lake, do you see Duck Creek? Just north of the creek barely visible is a dead end road running parallel to the shore. That is Brickyard Road where Ronnie Van Zant lived in an old wood frame two story house with his wife and one year old daughter back in 1977- at the time of his death and when the image at the top of this thread was taken by a film crew.

When you look at the Pepsi Cola Tribute film and watch Ronnie and Gary fish and talk about Lynyrd Skynyrd and the music that made their band world famous, they are sitting in the boat somewhere along that west side of Doctors Lake just north of his home on Brickyard Road.

When you look at the image the OP used in this thread, it appears to me that off to Ronnie's right is Peoria Point which tells me Ronnie is sitting in Sugarhouse Cove facing east for the filming, probably to capture the right light angle for film which required strong sunlight for good images on film, and to have a nice undeveloped forest looking backdrop for the filming.

So it is just my opinion, but if you look on the map to where it says Sugarhouse Cove, there is a "10" foot depth number on the map just below the word "cove". If I had to pick the spot where the image for this thread was taken during the filming of the Pepsi Tribute film in Sept. 1977, that "10" on this map just about marks the exact spot where I think this image and film were taken.

And when the camera pans away from Ronnie and Gary fishing and shows the bird flying behind them with the wooded shoreline, I do believe that is the straight portion of the NW side of Sugarhouse Cove.

[JayKumar]

Tx for posting this!  HUGE Skynyrd fan, always will be.

[FloridaFishinFool]

 

Here is a rare piece of Skynyrd history that is almost unknown to many fans of the music of Lynyrd Skynyrd.

In Sept. of 1977 when Ronnie was filmed in Doctors Lake, Ronnie did something no one in his band knew he had done! It was a secret of Ronnie's no one would find about until decades after his death and only by chance was this secret uncovered.

The man who uncovered this secret was Ron O'Brien an engineer working for MCA Records out in California. Ron is the man behind most all of the band's recent remastered version of the old 1970's albums that includes new music material he dug up out of the MCA Records vaults and warehouses.

Going back to 1977, Skynyrd was at the height of their fame. They had just recorded a brand new album called "Street Survivors" which was the band's first album actually shipped gold status! This means that for this new album, they had more than 500,000 units of this album already ordered by record stores all across America and around the world. So before the new album had even been released in 1977, it had already earned a gold record award status before the first copy was ever even shipped out the doors from MCA Records!

But what a lot of people did not know, even his own family members, and band members did not know this, but when that album was recorded, the project had started down in Miami at Criteria Studios with Tom Dowd producing and an assistant doing the actual engineering. The band recorded some $75,000 worth of the album down there and then went out on the road and listened to the results as they traveled. The band and band personnel like live sound engineer Kevin Elson were unhappy with the results of the recordings already done. And so they scrapped all of it and went to Studio One in Doraville, Georgia to start the album recording project all over up there using a Tom Dowd stand in engineer and re-recorded the same songs up there with Rodney Mills at the same studio the Atlanta Rhythm Section recorded in. ARS recorded during the day and Skynyrd a night.

Once the basic tracks were completed the band went back out on the road touring. The album project now moved into a post production situation out in California where Tom Dowd himself added in brass horn section overdubs to the album and other finishing parts. And this is where Ronnie's secret took place.

Ronnie Van Zant himself went out to California to oversee some of the post-production overdubs to the new album Street Survivors, but while out there Ronnie did something he never told a soul about- not his father and mother, not his wife, nor any of his band members knew of this secret, not even Tom Dowd was aware of it.

But sometime during the post production overdubs for this album in California Ronnie had an inspiration for an all new vocal track and lyrics to one of the songs released on the Street Survivors album in 1977. That song is call "Honky Tonk Nighttime Man"

What Ronnie did in secret was to take the finished album recording into a studio and create what is known in the business as a "bounced" track. Or, he had an engineer make a direct copy of the multi-track recording onto another tape, and he had the vocal track used on the album stripped off and erased and Ronnie laid down in a studio out there an all new vocal track for this song recorded in secret in September of 1977. No one knows WHO did this! No one knows who the engineer is, or why Ronnie did this. Our only clues today can come from the words he sang on this track just days before he died.

So Ronnie recorded an all new vocal track and walked away from California never telling a soul what he had done and he went back out on the road singing his songs and this track was forgotten and unknown.

Street Survivors was released in mid October of 1977 and the band kicked off a new tour boarding their charter plane in Jacksonville and doing some shows supporting the new album in Miami, St. Petersburg, and Lakeland on October 17th, 1977 was the band's final Florida show. The band took off from the Lakeland airport and left Florida for the last time and flew to Greenville, South Carolina for a show there on October 19, 1977. The following day the band boarded their private charter plane and took off for Baton Rouge, La. The plane ran out of fuel and crashed just outside McComb, Miss at about 6:51pm the evening of October 20, 1977 just as the sun was going down, so to did the Skynyrd plane killing 6 on board including Ronnie Van Zant.

Decades later a dedicated sound recording engineer named Ron O'Brien was digging through the MCA Records vaults digging up any unreleased recording he could locate and then use to create all new expanded deluxe editions of the band's old 1970's albums and throw on some new music for the fans to enjoy.

Ron O'Brien told me that he had this tape on the machine, a 24-track fat track multi-track recording, and after the usable music had gone silent, Ron said he was busy doing something and had forgotten about the fat track tape running in the play mode when all of a sudden jumping out at him from the speakers in the control room was the music to "Honky Tonk Nightime Man" at the end of a 24-track tape was this recording no one knew about! It had an all new vocal track on it by Ronnie Van Zant himself that just stunned Ron O'Brien. It was as though Ronnie was reaching out from beyond the grave to make his last words on tape known to all the world!

If Ron O'Brien had not been distracted in the control room and had reached over and switched off the tape machine when the known tracks had run out this recording may never have been found because there would have been no reason for any human to ever use that tape again! It is by a miracle that Ron O'Brien just let it play out to the end to find this gem of a recording no one knew about that Ronnie had done in secret just before his death.

Ronnie recorded a new point of view about his perspective on where the music business was heading in moving away from rock and roll and heading into the disco era of the late 1970's and he sung about his view on his hometown of Jacksonville and how he was a target for the police in north Florida. It was a very somber statement from Ronnie of the time in late 1977. No one could know that in mere days he would be dead and this track lost for decades to be found only by a miracle! So take a listen to what Ronnie had to say just before his death recorded within days of the filming of the Pepsi Cola tribute noted in this thread:

Listen closely to every word of this secret track from beyond the grave!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVy695uOIFc

This old town ain't been the same
Since this old boys been gone
Lord I still got some good friends
But I feel so all alone
All I hear is disco
See pretty boys with high heels on

Well, some people sure hate me
And police dog me round
Well, the only place I'm welcome
Is on the west side of town
Well, I'm on the wanted posters
I can't show my face in town, alright

Play this one for south side

Jacksonville, I love you
But you don't want me around
Jacksonville, you raised me
And this is where I got my sound
Although I'm your outlaw
I still love my hometown, all around

Ahh, this is for the west side boys

This old town ain't been the same
Since your native sons been gone
Lord, I still got some old friends
But I am so all alone
All I hear is disco
See pretty boys with high heels on

Well, you can keep your disco
Pretty boys with high heels on

[Nitrofreak]

WOW MAN !!!!

Thank you for this, what a truly great read !!!

[lo n slo]

saw them three times before the crash

[N Florida Mike]

HeyThanks for the great post.I knew that was RVZ .cause I've seen that video.I thought that was probly in Drs lake near his house .Skynyrd was my favorite southern rock band.I relate to what they sang about.Allen Collins lived on julington creek acrost the river and the bass would bed in his canal every spring .It was part of a spring pattern I fished in there.I agree that the water was polluted but I swear I caught more back then than I did more recently.Back then,a red shad culprit worm was the hot bait there.As for whiteys suburbia has crept in and its not out in the woods anymore.But the foods good.I think they told me the catfish come from Mississippi now.They quit having frog legs though which was real dissapointing. They do have summer bass tournaments there every Thursday night.And that lake you mentioned down in the Ocala forest that Ronnie caught the 12 pounder in sounds like Delancy. I Fished camped and hunted around there a lot.

[FloridaFishinFool]

41 minutes ago, N Florida Mike said:

.And that lake you mentioned down in the Ocala forest that Ronnie caught the 12 pounder in sounds like Delancy. I Fished camped and hunted around there a lot.

Dam! You nailed it! I was not going to mention where he caught his big one, but you got it right. Lake Delancy in the Ocala National Forest.

Ronnie was introduced to a man named Carl who lived on the east side of the lake and had himself a nice size piece of land on the lake, about 15 acres. He and his wife lived there, and Carl rented some mobile homes on the front side away from the lake, and he built one cabin on the lake. He had his own small bait and tackle shop and his own private boat ramp there and for years, decades even he ran himself a nice little fish camp there.

Lake Delancy was known for producing some nice size bass some going upwards of 14 pounds, maybe more.

Ronnie and his life long buddy Gene Odom would drive down from Orange Park when the band was off the road, and Ronnie would rent out the small cabin for a few days and go fishing on Lake Delancy and have it all to himself. Back then Lake Delancy was not really open to the public like it is now. And lake Delancy was surrounded by mostly all dense Florida scrub woods. There were only a few homes on the lake taking up less than 5% of the eastern shoreline. All the rest of the lake was pure Florida wilderness a perfect remote get away for a very famous rock star to slip away to bass fish in relative privacy. Ronnie really loved Lake Delancy.

Ronnie would put his boat into the lake on old Carl's boat ramp and Ronnie would shoot straight across the lake to the westside where there was a massive lily pad covered area that he would keep his boat Bad Co. just off it in clear water and fish specifically that area of the lake.

When he caught the big one a few months before he died, as soon as he landed that fish in the boat he knew he had finally caught his prize big bass he had wanted for his entire life and now he had it in the boat! Gene Odom told me that the fishing trip ended right then and there. That Ronnie said well, I've done it, now let's get her home! So they loaded up the boat and drove back to his house on Brickyard Road and walked into the kitchen through the backdoor and the one and only photo I have seen of him holding that fish was taken just inside the back door in the kitchen about as soon as he walked in the door with that big bass.

Ronnie immediately wrapped it up and put it in the freezer. He wanted that fish stuffed and mounted on his wall as his life time achievement trophy bass! (I am presently looking for a copy of this photo and if I can find it I will post it here)

I think Gene said the fish weighed just over 12 pounds. But the sad part of this story is that Ronnie soon delivered that fish to a taxidermist to prepare it for him and mount it, but Ronnie never saw that fish again. He died in the plane crash Oct. 20, 1977 and the fish was still not back from the taxidermist yet. He never got to see his mounted fish hanging on his wall.

Today either his widow Judy, or his daughter Melody have that fish hanging on their wall in memory of a great father and husband.

But yeah, now that you've let the secret out, it was Lake Delancy.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Ronnie's father Lacy Van Zant wrote his own book about the Van Zant family. Inside that book is a black and white copy of the photo I described above of when Ronnie had just stepped inside the backdoor of his house showing off his 12 pound bass to his wife just before putting it in the freezer to preserve it for a taxidermist, but here is a lousy image copy of the inside of Lacy's book showing the now infamous photo of Ronnie's big bass caught in Lake Delancy:

(the words written in this book are written by a grieving father missing his deceased son)

[N Florida Mike]

I fished delancy a lot back in the 80s especially and I remember ol Carl.He was a rough old codger.But I never heard that about RVZ before.I wished I knew that then but that's cool to hear it now.I'd love to see that fish.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Ronnie Van Zant, a world famous rock star with a passion for bass fishing was well advised back in the 1970's to concentrate his bass fishing efforts on this one lake- Lake Delancy.

Karl Newbern mentioned in the following article is the same man I named above as "Carl." It was he who owned the only boat ramp on Lake Delancy for many years, and this is the man who Ronnie Van Zant took his boat down to visit, rent a cabin from him and access Lake Delancy from his small fish camp on this incredible lake!

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1987-03-22/sports/0120000190_1_bass-lake-water

Shhh: Lake Delancy Remains State's Best-kept Bass-fishing Secret

March 22, 1987|By Don Wilson of the Sentinel Staff

Near the northern tip of the Ocala National Forest, almost in casting distance of the famed Rodman Reservoir, is a small lake that's been an inside secret among a small cadre of big-bass hunters.

Although it's just a fraction of the size of Rodman, the 1,300-acre Lake Delancy has a reputation for producing trophy bass, year after year.

In a single year, it yielded three fish that each weighed more than 14 pounds. The lake record is a 16-pound, 8-ounce whopper.

With catches such as these, the little lake off State Road 19 has attracted some big-time bass anglers, including bass researcher and author Doug Hannon. Yet even now, at the height of the big-bass season, a mid-week trip to the lake finds less than a half-dozen cars and boat trailers parked at Camp Newbern.

Karl Newbern, owner of the lake's only fish camp and boat-launching ramp, said he avoids attracting attention to Lake Delancy.

''The people here now are out of Tennessee, Georgia, North Carolina and Wyoming,'' he said. ''But they all found out about it by word of mouth, because I do not do any advertising. Oh, I had a nice sign up on the highway, but then the U.S. Forest Service started charging me $25 a year, I tore it down.''

Newbern, 72, has been on Lake Delancy for 35 years.

In that time, he's learned how to stalk big bass in the lake's clear water. It's a pasttime that requires plenty of patience and a low profile.

''Nine-tenths of the people who come here don't know how to fish here.'' Newbern said. ''They blast up with a big boat . . . and then they'll sling out two heavy anchors -- boom, boom. By that time, the bass that were there are gone back yonder. These bass are spooky. I've drawn back to make a cast and seen the wakes of big fish running after they noticed my movement.''

The lake is almost two physically distinct bodies of water.

The eastern half is much like the conventional Florida lake. It is saucer-shaped, with an average depth of 10 feet in mid-lake and water 5 to 6 feet deep along the outer edge of the emergent grass.

The western half is a vast grass flat, where the water is 4 to 5 feet deep dotted with stalks of sparse grass.

On the south side of the western half is the deepest point in the lake, a 24-foot hole created by a giant alligator.

''A gator about 15 feet, the biggest I've seen here, caused that,'' Newbern said. ''Back when the lake got down low, she was afraid the water was going to run out. The lower the water got, the more she dug, because she was going to keep some water in that hole.''

The gator hole is along the first kicker trail to the left after you pass through a narrow bottleneck.

Another distinguishing feature, the key to the lake's big-bass reputation, is a 100-acre marsh along its west bank.

''You've got plenty of water until you hit the marsh, then you run into a solid wall of marsh,'' Newbern said. ''It's the finest breeding ground in the world, because no boats can get in and there's nothing to bother the fish.''

Delancy is an isolated lake, not connected to any other lakes or the St. Johns River.

That probably accounts for another unique characteristic: A lack of any so-called ''trash'' fish. You won't find a single gar, pickerel or mudfish in the lake.

Even in the Ocala National Forest, which is known for clean, spring-fed lakes, Delancy stands out.

''A girl biologist from Florida Institute of Technology told me we have the cleanest lake in the forest,'' Newbern said.

Reaching the lake, located 75 miles north of Orlando, is simple.

Take State Road 19 north through Salt Springs to Forest Road 75. Forest service signs will direct you to the fish camp, a mile or two down the road.

[N Florida Mike]

Yeah we used to fish that west side of the lake a lot and the canals on the east side.It seemed like every time I went there the wind would always be so bad we would end up in the canals to escape it.I wonder if it's still open to the public.I heard that Carl passed away.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Yes, old Karl Newbern has passed on as has his widow. Today I do not know who owns his old fish camp property or what the status is. I would hope that lake is still available for us to enjoy.

Lynyrd Skynyrd posing above with their charter plane before leaving for the fateful last tour, and below is bass player Leon Wilkeson on the left and road manager Dean Kilpatrick shown in front of the plane they would crash within nearly killing Leon who barely survived, but Dean on the right would perish in the crash.

The original poster here on this thread "deep" has stated on his profile that he is an "aviation history" fan. So I thought for him and for any Skynyrd fans on this forum who might want to know a few more details on how and why the Skynyrd plane crashed that I would post some of this information here and try and explain a few of the ways this tragic plane crash changed the way planes were built after this crash and other changes in aviation history this tragic crash changed.

Before I post some of the 100+ pages of NTSB plane crash investigation report let me try and explain what happened that is not shown on the pages I will post here. And I want you to know this is purely my opinion based on years of accumulated information from band members and survivors of the plane crash itself, from the investigation results and conclusions, and from experts in the field of planes and aviation, and even family members of the plane crash victims.

I have an interest in this subject because I grew up where Lynyrd Skynyrd came from. We share the same geographical and social roots, and as I grew up I eventually met and worked for a number of the band members and plane crash survivors for many years and I heard their stories from them first hand. I was friends with several of the plane crash survivors and saw the effects of it on them every day.

So the first thing I would like to say about this tragic crash is the U.S. federal government's official conclusion on why this plane went down killing 6 on board was because of pilot errors, several critical errors that added up to a tragedy. But, both of these pilots who died in the crash were competent skilled pilots with lots of experience and plenty of flight hours, but, when they climbed aboard the Skynyrd plane built in 1947, a Convair CV-240 twin turbo prop plane, those pilots were climbing aboard a plane that was constructed differently than the more modern planes they were use to flying and neither pilot had much experience on an older plane like this one, and this greatly contributed to a series of mistakes those pilots made that lead to the crash, but in the end the NTSB concluded the crash was due to pilot error and "inattention to fuel supply" when they ran it out of fuel, but it is more complicated than that. The pilots did not believe what the fuel gauges were telling them and even thumped on them hoping the needle would shake loose and rise up to show some fuel in the tanks. There was none. But there is more to this...

The plane Skynyrd crashed in was original outfitted and customized for another one of this country's great rock bands Aerosmith. Inside that plane the Aerosmith band name and logo was added to the seats in the head rests.

A few years ago, I am not sure who from Aerosmith published a book, but inside that book about the band Aerosmith they detail how they had a friend of their band who was an expert on planes, flying, and aviation in general, and the story goes that Steven Tyler, possibly others sent this expert to look over the plane for them before any of them would fly in it. Supposedly their expert came back face to face with Steven Tyler and told him 'DO NOT FLY ON THAT PLANE! If you do, I quit.' Steven Tyler and the band members of Aerosmith turned down that plane. Lynyrd Skynyrd did not have an expert working for them looking out for their best interests like Aerosmith had. If they did things might be very different today.

The charter company this plane was hired from was in Texas. So the pilots flew the plane empty to Jacksonville Florida around October 14, 1977 (not sure of the exact day as I am writing this from memory) The band loaded up their luggage into the plane and boarded it kicking off their brand new tour in support of their new album "Street Survivors" which had been released just days earlier and was already blaring out of radios across America when Skynyrd took off from their hometown of Jacksonville to do a few shows around Florida before touring to other states.

The band flew the plane to Miami and played the Sportatorium there the night of 10-15-77, and the following day flew to the Lakeland airport with no problems mentioned or even noticed or brought up by anyone. All was well so far. The plane would sit at this airport for a few days and the band was put up in a local hotel in Lakeland, where they went after getting off the plane to get ready for a performance in St. Petersburg that night of the 16th at the Bayfront Center. The band would drive from Lakeland to St. Petersburg in limos to the show about an hour and a half down I-4 hiway and return to their Lakeland hotel rooms later after this show.

The following day of October 17, 1977, all of the members of the Lynyrd Skynyrd band had a scheduled album autograph signing event at the Altamonte Springs mall out in the parking lot where an estimated crowd of about 3,000 fans showed up to meet and greet the band. The band members drove up to Altamonte Springs mall in black limos. Some of the band members were doing radio interviews while other band members went out to sit at tables set up for them to sign autographs on. At some point all of the band members were all sitting in a row at the table signing autographs and taking photos. MCA Records had even hired a local professional photographer to take photos for them, his name is Charles Odum.

After the autograph signing event, some of the band members took one limo back to Lakeland and their hotel to rest up and prepare for their next performance in Lakeland the following night. Some of the other band members decided to take one of the limos and drive around the Orlando area sightseeing and even showing up at a local record store called East/West Records and Tapes as I recall which was at the time located in Winter Park on hiway 17-92. Their arrival at the store was a complete surprise to all the people inside. The store had a large poster of the band's new album with flames on the wall- a 4' X 4' poster today worth hundreds of dollars if you can find one. Fans in the store eagerly asked for autographs and the story goes the band's record albums were being pulled out of the bin and signed by band members and just handed out to fans who may or may not have even paid for those records! But no one at the store complained or said one word about it.

Soon these guys also made their way back to Lakeland and their hotel rooms. The following night Lynyrd Skynyrd performed their last concert in their home state of Florida. They had no way of knowing their fate just hours away now.

The concert in Lakeland at the Civic Center on the night of October 18, 1977 was a rowdy one. The fans were excited and fights broke out in the crowd. It was an intimate Florida performance and the last time Skynyrd would see a Florida audience for this Florida band. There are numerous news articles on this show available and photos...

The following morning the band members left their hotel rooms in their limos to the Lakeland airport where their plane was ready and waiting on them. That plane had now been there for 3 days and the pilots and Lakeland airplane maintenance workers had gone over the plane thoroughly. There was no problems noticed or reported.

So the last steps in Florida some of these band members would ever take in their home state was the walk from their limos to their waiting charter plane. All of them boarded the plane and it took off on morning of October 19, 1977 bound for Greenville, South Carolina where the band had another performance scheduled that very night at the Greenville Memorial Auditorium.

During this flight is when the first signs of trouble arose. Band members reported seeing blue flames shooting out the rear of the right engine and said they heard sputtering. It scared the hell out the band members and they began discussing among themselves on that very flight that in Greenville they would ditch this plane and find other transportation for the rest of the tour.

Now let me take a detour and explain something that the band members did not know at the time of this Lakeland to Greenville flight.

I have gone to the Lakeland airport and their aviation museum there and discussed this very issue with some white haired old pilots who were very familiar with this plane and the blue flames and the told me that it was actually normal and not a problem. Not even an issue.

Apparently the pilots flying the plane had some trouble smoothing out the engines in flight and so they switched the carburetors into what is known as the auto-rich mode that let the carburetors adjust the air to fuel mixture themselves and this caused the engines to draw in more fuel than they were burning up in combustion and some of the unburned fuel was being exhausted out and igniting in the vapor trail behind the right engine more so than the left. All completely normal I was told.

Apparently the right engine was believed to have some sort of a magneto problem, this is the part that creates the electrical energy for the spark inside the engine. And if it were not producing a hot enough spark inside the engine then it could not develop full power. But after the plane crash the NTSB recovered both magnetos and determined they were in good working condition, so this brings up the possibility that maybe there was some sort of a wiring issue and a shorting out of the output of the magneto in the right engine, but this can never be known or proven, it is just a theory as to why that right engine was having some running issues, but in the end all the experts said this plane was flight worthy. So the plane was not why it crashed, only a factor in the crash.

The plane landed normally in Greenville, South Carolina and the scared band members did not want to fly on the plane again and some of them actually purchased tickets for other alternative transportation. The band went ahead with their Greenville show that night. Meanwhile the plane maintenance workers at the Greenville airport took a look at the plane and found nothing wrong with it. The pilots added some 400 gallons of fuel, but did not top off the tanks.

The following day the band members discussed what to do and whether to abandon the plane, but there had been phone calls to the leasing company in Texas who told them if they would fly it their next show in Baton Rouge that they would have some mechanics drive over to Baton Rouge and go over the plane. This, combined with the all clear from Greenville maintenance workers and the pilots assurances was enough to talk the band members and employees into getting on the plane for this last final flight to Baton Rouge- a place they would not make it to.

I was told by one band member that it was his opinion this plane was overloaded with too much weight. When it left Greenville it had a near full human load on board of 26 people and some really heavy luggage. I was told the band had recently come back from Japan and while there band members spent a bunch of money buying electronics and camera equipment and that a lot of this heavy stuff was on the plane in their luggage.

The pilots had trouble reaching the altitude they were cleared for and had trouble staying at that altitude.

This tells me either that plane had too much weight on board, or those engines were not developing full power. Something was amiss.

Here is where one of the first critical mistakes by the pilots comes into play, for one, they are responsible for the load and weight of their plane. Did they make a mistake in this area?

Another mistake they made was again due to the fact these pilots did not have a lot of experience on an older plane like this one and their fuel calculations were not correct! They took on 400 gallons of fuel added to what they still had on board, but under normal circumstances it was enough fuel to get them to Baton Rouge, but the pilots were running BOTH engines in the auto-rich mode which consumed approximately an additional 25 gallons of fuel per engine per hour  adding up to an additional 50 gallons per hour for a 2 and half hour flight approached 125 gallons of fuel used up that was not calculated into their flight planning. This was something they did not apparently calculate into their fuel needs! And in this final flight they were using up more fuel than they knew about at a faster rate and this is a major contributor to why they flat ran that plane out of fuel and crashed, not to mention possibly being overweight which would have used up even more fuel.

One of the interesting comments a band member told me he witnessed back in Greenville shows how old this plane was. He said he saw the pilots checking the fuel level using a wooden stick at the time the band members were loading up onto the plane for the final flight. That right there says those pilots were not trusting the antiquated fuel gauges in the cockpit and were actually checking fuel levels with a stick!

The last flight seemed normal to all on board for the first few hours. But as they approached McComb, Mississippi the pilots were noticing the fuel gauges were showing they were really low on fuel and band members and band employees who came and went from the cockpit said they saw the pilots actually thumping the old gauges hoping they would show some fuel.

The plane flew on.

Now here is where the pilots biggest mistake happened.

They flew past McComb airport! Those pilots should have requested landing clearance at McComb if they suspected they were running low on fuel, but for some reason they believed they had enough fuel, but they were wrong, so they flew past McComb airport and about 15 miles past they began to get really concerned about not having enough fuel to make it Baton Rouge so they contacted Houston air traffic control requesting a vector to the closest airport to land that plane. Well, guess what pilots? You just passed that airport back in McComb! Turn that plane around and head back there!

By now the pilots were beginning to panic. Houston asked them if they wanted to declare an in flight fuel emergency and those pilots REFUSED to declare an in flight fuel emergency because IF they landed that plane safely, their pilot licenses would have been immediately suspended pending an investigation they did not want to face! So those pilots, both of them REFUSED to declare an in flight fuel emergence and told Houston they needed the straightest vector to the closest airport and that was behind them in McComb some 15 miles back behind them.

Houston asked the pilots if they were running low on fuel and the pilots responded their gauges were showing them an "indication" of low fuel. Still those pilots were not believing what those old gauges was telling them and they were suspicious of the gauges and if they were even working correctly showing correct fuel levels in that old plane!

By now, word had spread among the people on board that plane that there was a fuel problem. The pilots told them they were turning around to head back to McComb airport which they had just passed minutes before and could have landed safely at, if only...

The pilots began a slow descent bringing that plane lower as they made their turn back to McComb airport. Those pilots began trying to switch fuel tanks and transfer fuel from one tank to another desperately trying to locate any fuel they could route to those engines to keep them in the sky.

As they banked that plane back around to McComb the engines went silent at about 4,500 when Houston lost contact with the Skynyrd plane.

Today it is believed due to the lack of experience on older planes, those pilots are presumed to have thrown an electrical kill switch at about this time which removes electricity from the fuselage of the plane to prevent sparks on impact that could ignite fuel and fuel vapors possibly killing more people. This switch is suppose to be thrown at 1000 feet or less just before impact but it is believed the pilots threw this switch way above 1000 feet and may have been the reason the radio went silent when the plane was at 4,500 feet.

The way this old plane was designed, it had a couple of generators in the rear of the plane, and when the pilots threw the electrical kill switch it shut down those generators I was told and thus deprived the hydraulic steering pumps of electricity those pilots desperately needed to help them steer and guide the plane down out of the sky. They were now trying to reach a clear cow field for a rough landing, but never made it. The plane went down as it was banking back around to McComb and went down in a heavily wooded swampy area just as the sun was setting around 6:51PM. 6 people on board were killed including the 2 pilots, and several people sitting up front behind the cockpit which included Ronnie Van Zant, Steve Gaines, band road manager Dean Kilpatrick, and further back in the plane Cassie Gaines a back up singer was also killed. All the others survived, and their stories are incredible to learn, but that is not a part of this post which is about why that plane went down.

So now take a read from the actual NTSB official plane crash investigation report of the actual radio transmissions to and from the Skynyrd plane and Houston air traffic control and other planes flying nearby as the Skynyrd plane fell out of the sky. These are the actual words spoken by the pilots just before they died and it gives incredible insight into the last seconds before the plane crashed ending the legendary band Lynyrd Skynyrd.

The following conversation transcript will literally put you on the Skynyrd plane as it fell from the sky. N55VM is the radio identity of the Skynyrd plane's pilots and there words just prior the crash...

 

Further in this same NTSB report, the federal crash investigators said when they recovered the carburetors from this plane they found no more than one quart of fuel still in them- combined. There was no fire on impact because there was no fuel left to burn. All injuries and deaths were caused from the trauma of the crash itself.

When a crash like this happens and it is investigated by the NTSB and other agencies, one of the things they do in their reports near the end of the report is to make suggestions on how crashes like this can be prevented in the future. So each plane crash contributes to a safer future for all.

When this plane crashed, federal investigators uncovered that the actual lease agreement the band signed to charter this plane was illegal. So this was one of the first things changed in the laws of this country was in how planes were leased in the future.

Another change made from the investigation results of this plane crash were in how planes were engineered in the future. Future planes would also have an electrical kill switch, but some would now be automated, and throwing that switch would no longer deprive the pilots of hydraulic assistance in steering a plane run out of fuel in flight. Batteries would now continue to operate basic flight functions within planes as necessary to help minimize injuries and deaths in the future by giving the pilots some ability to steer. The Skynyrd pilots unfamiliar with their plane found out the hard way when it was too late.

This image is of the Skynyrd plane and crash site:

The following image is NOT the Skynyrd plane but another Convair 240 just like it.

[N Florida Mike]

Best explanation I've heard of this.I was just reading some articles on it recently.You've probably heard about Jo Jo billingsly's dream about the plane crashing and she tried to warn them.And how she didn't have peace about meeting them in Greenville even though Ronnie had asked her to join them there.It was like God was warning her.One of my favorite songs by them is Swamp music.Usually It makes me feel good but every now and then it reminds me of them crashing into a swamp and makes me sad and angry but its hard to be angry at dead men for what happened.Some things won't be understood this side of eternity.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Ronnie Van Zant and his big bass caught in the summer of 1977. It weighed just over 12 pounds and was the biggest bass Ronnie had ever caught in his short life of 29 years. It is a shame he caught it just months before his death in October 1977.

I'm not sure, but it appears the hat Ronnie is wearing in this photo is a B.A.S.S. hat.