Are baits copyrighted?

[basswarrior]

Sorry if I post in the wrong section.  I wanted to know more about if there's baits that is copyright.  I was making baits to sell for awhile now on facebook and craigslist and a friend mention copyrights to me.  I didn't know what to answer because most of us learns from the internet whether it's here, facebook or somewhere else.  So I was wondering if making your own baits, such as soft plastic, jigs, crankbaits and selling them is wrong or not.  Where can I find more info if making baits and selling is an infringement due to copyright or is there such as copyright baits.

[cadman]

Yes there are copyrights and patents. The best way to avoid problems is make your own unique design and come up with your own name. So if you make worms, you cannot call them Senkos, you have to use a different name. Will your baits sell as well as a Senko with your name, maybe yes  and maybe no. But the brand Senko is about the creator's name and his process. It is similar in lead jigs, however it seems the people aren't as anal about using names. The Arky jig is a household name and has no patent ties. The Brush jig as well. Many of the jigs that we use are generic names and have been named by Do-It molds and Hilts molds back in the day. Now the Chatterbait is a no-no. When it came out several years ago, the original creator's fiercely protected the name and the blade design. So you will have to do your homework and see what names are out there.

[FloridaFishinFool]

Most patents and copyrights are searchable online.

http://www.copyright.gov/

http://www.uspto.gov/patents-application-process/search-patents

If you wanted to make copies of protected lures, you can as long as you do not sell them. That is where it crosses the line. But for personal use it is not illegal.

You can also copy a lure and then make a change in it. Do something to the design of the lure that makes it different.from the protected design. Altering a protected design makes it more difficult for any type of prosecution because you can say that you made a product different than a protected product so it is not the same.

This is why we see a ton of rubber bait products that a lot of them look similar but have significant differences to get around protected designs. It happens all the time.

In reels it is kind of funny today to look through the patent office at all the rod and reel patents and then look inside the reels and see basically the same designs across different brands. It came down to some worked, some didn't and many just focus on sales to sell, sell, sell these days and some of those patented ideas are just fading into the past...

In music if a garage bar band wants to play a copyrighted song by another artist they do it in bars. Happens every day in America. But if they wanted to record it and then put it on a CD and sell it, then they run into legal issues with it.

Personal use, go for it. Sell it, get a lawyer and pay royalties...

[cadman]

4 minutes ago, FloridaFishinFool said:

Most patents and copyrights are searchable online.

http://www.copyright.gov/

http://www.uspto.gov/patents-application-process/search-patents

If you wanted to make copies of protected lures, you can as long as you do not sell them. That is where is crosses the line. But for personal use it is not illegal.

You can also copy a lure and then make a change in it. Do something to the design of the lure that makes it different.from the protected design. Altering a protected design makes it more difficult for any type of prosecution because you can say that you made a product different than a protected product so it is not the same.

This is why we see a ton of rubber bait products that a lot of them look similar but have significant differences to get around protected designs. It happens all the time.

In reels it is kind of funny today to look through the patent office at all the rod and reel patents and then look inside the reels and see basically the same designs across different brands. It came down to some worked, some didn't and many just focus on sales to sell, sell, sell these days and some of those patented ideas are just fading into the past...

In music if a garage bar band wants to play a copyrighted song by another artist they do it in bars. Happens every day in America. But if they wanted to record it and then put it on a CD and sell it, then they run into legal issues with it.

Personal use, go for it. Sell it, get a lawyer and pay royalties...

I was going to explain it more in detail, but I figured someone else would chime in and I didn't have the links available. But the way I understand it is the way you stated it, you are correct. If I remember correctly you have to change your copied design by 30% to make it sellable ( is that a word) to the market.

[basscatcher8]

Like Cadman said earlier I haven't heard to many stories of companies raising an issue besides a few that are pretty protective. Which they have every right to protect their stuff. I know when I got my roadrunner mold there was a special disclaimer that came with it and I think that's the only mold that I've got with it. GY licensed do-it to make a Senko mold and their only stipulation was that Do-IT was stamped in each cavity so that you could tell someone used the senko licensed mold.

[basswarrior]

Thanks for the helpful information, the reason why I'm asking is first of all I don't want to get into any copyright issue.  Secondly is because I've seen some sellers out there selling as well but I guess it's just extra stuff that they make and had extra to sell.  

Is there any site that I can look more into it about what kind of jigs are copyright?

[cadman]

43 minutes ago, basswarrior said:

Thanks for the helpful information, the reason why I'm asking is first of all I don't want to get into any copyright issue.  Secondly is because I've seen some sellers out there selling as well but I guess it's just extra stuff that they make and had extra to sell.  

Is there any site that I can look more into it about what kind of jigs are copyright?

This is pretty simple. I sell jigs and this reply is not to promote my business, but to explain the process of how to go about getting permission to sell jigs. Most terms in the jig industry, have been around for a long time and are standard, there are very few innovations  in the actual jigs themselves, more in how to use  the jigs with a different presentation, and someone winning a tournament and coming up with a name and selling it. For example the "A" rig, nothing new about these, the saltwater industry has been using them for years called umbrella rigs. Another example is  the "Randy Howell Herring Head, other that having his name associated to that type of jig, there were underspins and tail spinners made for years nothing new here. So going back to my situation, When I decided to sell jigs, all the molds that I would be using were made by Do-It molds or Hilts. I originally called up Do-It molds and spoke to the engineering person and the owner of the company and told them that I am going to use their molds to start selling jigs, and can I use the names they associated with their molds as the name on my website. The feedback I got from Do-It was that they had no problem with that. They are a very good company to work with, and I have never had any issues with them. So, one of Do-It's best selling mold at the time was the "Poison Tail". Everyone at the time the mold came out that was pouring lead bought that mold and was selling "Poison Tail "jigs. To this day I use that name in my catalog. So the to answer your question, if you are going to sell jigs and want to use a product to sell, get permission from the company to do so. Save dates, names and letters from people you talked to at the time, so if it would come up later, you have some documentation. Now just some common sense tells you that if you are going to and sell the underspin head from Do-It and put on your website Randy Howell's Underspins, well that is a no-no. You can't use someone else's name to promote your product unless you get his permission. Open discussion with staff and documentation from all approving parties is key if you don't want to get sued. This is just the way I started my process. If you have any more question I can help answer more questions off line.

[J Francho]

Copyright refers to published material - written word, musical performance, computer code, images, photographs, etc.  A "bait" is an object, and therefore cannot be copyrighted.

More info here: http://www.copyright.gov/

[Glenn]

Bait designs can be patented.  Bait names can be trademarked and copyrighted. 

It's semantics insofar as this conversation goes.

Bottom line: don't emulate others; be original, and you won't get into any trouble.

[basswarrior]

Thanks for every answers throwing out there.  If I understand correctly, it's that one cannot do the same as the copyright holder, but by altering and naming differently, that will be a different story.  But to be safe, it's best for one to get permission from the copyright holder just to be on the safe side.

[Josh Smith]

1 hour ago, basswarrior said:

Thanks for every answers throwing out there.  If I understand correctly, it's that one cannot do the same as the copyright holder, but by altering and naming differently, that will be a different story.  But to be safe, it's best for one to get permission from the copyright holder just to be on the safe side.

If it's patented or copyrighted, you need permission.  Sometimes they will ask money for this permission.

If it is not patented, then it's known as public domain.  It could be public domain because someone decided not to patent.  An example would be the Ruger copy of the Keltec design in firearms.  It could also be that a patent has expired.  I'm sure the levelwind had a patent at one point; it expired and now everyone uses it.

Regards,

Josh

[Eric Allen]

So if I'm to buy a Mold and make/use my on color design and use a different name for the bait

I can't sell them at bait stores Correct? 

[Jig Man]

Also you should be aware of the rules , regulations, and record keeping that you will need to follow both in your state and federally.  You may have to collect sales tax and even excise tax on your sales and pay them to the respective authority.

[smalljaw67]

15 hours ago, Jig Man said:

Also you should be aware of the rules , regulations, and record keeping that you will need to follow both in your state and federally.  You may have to collect sales tax and even excise tax on your sales and pay them to the respective authority.

 

This^^^^!!!! I think you'll need to worry more about taxes than copyright infringement.  There is not only sales tax but state and local taxes not to mention the big one, FET otherwise known as Federal Excise Tax. Get caught selling lures online and not having a tax ID # and records of what you sold and you can be in a world of hurt. 

[Jonas Staggs]

Then how can so many brands make a "senko" and just give it a different name? Yum makes identical soft plastics to zoom. How many different companies make soft plastic lizards for example that are identical? I even see copies of the brush hog. Just given a different name.

 

Zoom, zman, and yum lizards. How can there be no copyright infringement with these?

 

 

 

 

[MN Fisher]

38 minutes ago, Jonas Staggs said:

Then how can so many brands make a "senko" and just give it a different name? Yum makes identical soft plastics to zoom. How many different companies make soft plastic lizards for example that are identical? I even see copies of the brush hog. Just given a different name.

 

Zoom, zman, and yum lizards. How can there be no copyright infringement with these?

Slightly different...one has parallel grooves in the back, another has bumps and the third something else. Minor changes in the details gets around the copywrite...they're not identical in all aspects.

[roadwarrior]

Rage Tail baits have a patented flange on the appendages. This is a unique feature

that cannot be replicated without permission. 

 

[Jonas Staggs]

On 2/6/2021 at 4:23 AM, MN Fisher said:

Slightly different...one has parallel grooves in the back, another has bumps and the third something else. Minor changes in the details gets around the copywrite...they're not identical in all aspects.

 

So let's say I copy zoom lizard exactly but give it a 3rd eye, which is just a tiny little bump and minuscule difference, now it's ok? 

[MN Fisher]

7 minutes ago, Jonas Staggs said:

 

So let's say I copy zoom lizard exactly but give it a 3rd eye, which is just a tiny little bump and minuscule difference, now it's ok? 

That might not be quite enough - but lengthen the legs a little, make the snout a little more pointy...then you'd be good...maybe. It's a gray area for the most part, but as @roadwarriorsaid - patented parts are a definite no-no - so putting Rage's flange style on a Yum lizard would get you into all sorts of trouble.

[Choporoz]

Plenty of flanges around now, too.  Just off top of my head, Fuzzy Beaver, Bandits Bug, and Bizz craws all have flanges.  I have no clue whether the flange was liscensed or the other companies are pushing the patent design challenge limits

[MN Fisher]

16 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

Plenty of flanges around now, too.  Just off top of my head, Fuzzy Beaver, Bandits Bug, and Bizz craws all have flanges.  I have no clue whether the flange was liscensed or the other companies are pushing the patent design challenge limits

All depends on who Steve Parks (inventor/patent holder of the Rage flange) has authorized/licensed. He mainly deals with Strike King, but he has final say in who can produce it, not SK.

[J Francho]

A bait cannot be copyrighted.  It can be patented., and the name/logo can be trademarked.

[gim]

I believe that Z man has a patent on their chatterbaits, specifically the jack hammer, don't they?  I thought I read something about how the blade is attached to the head was the reason.  I think its only in the USA and Canada though.

 

The Strike King Rage Tail is a good example.  Roadwarrior pointed that out in another thread a while back that I wasn't even aware of.  I think its a big reason why their products make such good trailers on jigs.

[J Francho]

I thought the Jack Hammer was made by Evergreen or someone and they have exclusive marketing rights on this side of the pond.  That's a totally different deal.

[Michigander]

1 hour ago, Jonas Staggs said:

 

So let's say I copy zoom lizard exactly but give it a 3rd eye, which is just a tiny little bump and minuscule difference, now it's ok? 

They told us in school that any design could be "stolen" as long as it was changed in three significant ways. Significant being relative to the design in question and ultimately up to the judge reviewing the dispute.