A Question To Shimano Fans

[NJSalt]

 Sometimes I fish with a shimano fanboy and when I do I use my abu's. Its fun catching more fish with my inferior equipment while he can stand there holding his stick loving shimano.

 

 

I guess your buddy's name isn't Aaron Martens 

[Raul]

[Josh Smith]

In part, I do agree.

I'd like my reels to come loaded with bushings. Because I tear them down and rebuild them when new anyway, it would be simple to replace the bushings with bearings where I want them.

For example, a 5500c3 Ambassadeur runs about half of a 5600c5. Yet, it's a simple matter to replace the bushings in the c3 when supertuning the rest of it.

I'd actually prefer it if I could buy an all-bushing reel and upgrade it with bearings as I see fit. This would lower initial and overall cost as I'd not be paying for Abec-3 bearings in a place I'd just swap in Abec-5 or -7 anyway.

Guess I'm not the typical type they cater to, though.

Regards,

Josh

Yes, I have an idea because I have done it for years and years, decades even. I use to actually save the bushings for what I have no idea now. I tossed all of them into the recycle bin long ago.

Every time I come across a bushing in any reel of mine, out it comes and ball bearings are installed. No if's, and's, or but's. I want ball bearings, not bushings.

I guess the term "better reel" has various interpretations! But I hear ya!

My days of having plastic or brass bushings on a baitcast reel spool went out with the 1980's! Never again! But if some people like bushings over bearings it is AOK with me... but I'm not turning back now.

You said we pay more for more bearings in more expensive reels which to some degree might be true, but from my perspective I pay more for a shimano reel with fewer ball bearings and less for other brand reels with MORE ball bearings!

Most of my baitcast reels have 10 ball bearings. I like it. I want it. And I will not let shimano decided this for me. Not any more. Today shimano reels are about 50% of what I use down from nearly 100% years ago. The reason is simple, other companies are giving me what I want for less while shimano wants to tell me what I need which is less for more $$$$. Today shimano no longer owns my brand loyalty because of what they do.

[bootytrain]

Really simple math honestly. You can still be the best selling while also losing market shares, and mark my words it is happening simply going by the numbers.

 

Back in the 1980's when shimano was establishing their reputation just look at the field of other brands that were available back then- it was far fewer than today. Shimano stood out, but those days are over. Today we have many more brands who have come into the market like Okuma for one who has increased their market share recently by 15% each year for 5 years and growing.

 

Okuma can only increase their market share by taking away from others. And they are not alone. Other reel manufacturers have stepped up to the plate and now offer reels of comparable quality and features and people like myself are turning away from shimano for this reason. More choices and better prices. Simple math dictates shimano can not always carve out increasing market shares forever. From what all I can tell they peaked long ago and are now on the decline in market share percentage as many other companies are increasing their market shares. It goes up and down all the time. It is never the same or carved in stone.

 

I based my opinion on my years of experience repairing reels for one where we use to see higher numbers of shimano reels, but today we see just about everything and decreasing numbers of shimano reels- and opinions of them. People are buying other brands. No doubt about it. That alone tells me shimano is losing market shares. They have to be. Simple math dictates it.

 

And if you keep up with the industry, you can review the shimano financial statements to see where their losses are and how shimano tries to minimize those numbers for their share holders by keeping track of their consolidated financial statements reports issued annually, (here is 2013 as an example) and also by keeping track of the World Fishing Equipment Market Report .  They often tell a differing story since shimano pads the numbers for their shareholders. The shimano reports have an agenda while the equipment market reports are not trying to show shareholders favorable numbers. These are just a couple of sources I read up on from time to time to see where the markets are and heading to.

 

From the shimano financial statement report:

 

"Sales from other segments decreased 10.3% from the previous year to 376 million yen and an operating loss of 135 million yen was recorded, following an operating loss of 326 million yen the previous year."

 

Heck shimano is even losing considerable market shares in the bicycle market too: SBS to stop selling Shimano components . Take a read on their reasoning why: ""We have an enormous amount of respect for the quality and engineering of Shimano components, and we have appreciated the opportunity to be a distributor of Shimano in the U.S. market,” said Chris Speyer, managing director of ANA. “Shimano has worked hard to establish a direct-to-dealer distribution network. We appreciate the opportunity that Shimano provided in allowing SBS to be one of the select group of distributors of their products, but in the long term it is clear to us that most dealers will focus their purchasing directly with Shimano. Therefore, based on our focused approach around P&A, we felt it was better to amicably discontinue distribution and focus on brands and categories that will be sustainable for SBS and ANA as a whole.”

 

Translation of this line: "we felt it was better to amicably discontinue distribution and focus on brands and categories that will be sustainable for SBS and ANA as a whole.”

 

Profit margin for shimano dropped meaning shimano's wholesale prices were too high for this distributor to make money distributing shimano so bye shimano! They will focus on cheaper brands that will sustain them in the future with more profit. Sell your own overpriced products shimano!

 

 

 

Bottom line is I added it all up and said "shimano is losing market shares" as my opinion of the overall market situation as I see it and I should have clarified that point, but then again, I also considered it a general given.

 

Do any of you follow the work of Alan Tani? He is a notable reel tech who is good at what he does and I have followed him for years. He has his own website and forum dedicated to reel repairs and modifications and on his site you will find some interesting discussion about shimano and other brands...

 

"PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE" in SHIMANO Reels ???

« on: February 09, 2015, 10:51:36 AM »

 

I was surfing the web and came across a couple of interesting items about SHIMANO reels, up to and including the STELLA, outlining problems that seem to transcend all levels of SHIMANO reels. forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?105525-Why-I-Will-Never-Buy-Another-Shimano-Product-Short-Life-Span

 

forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?104471-Stella-6000FA-Repair

I wanted to share this for those considering purchasing SHIMANO reels in the future, as well as current owners . . . Something to take into consideration!

Tight Lines !

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Ahh "Planned Obsolescence"... Blame Osram, Phillips and other Light Bulb companies for this term and this act.I knew years ago when Shimano Australia was headed by the late Mr John Dunphy (RIP), that Shimano prided themselves on having spare parts for 10 years minimum. Daiwa was a issue a couple of years ago where I had a 2005 Daiwa Laguna 2000 spin reel and it needed a new gear set both pinion and drive gear, a couple of eMails thrown around internally at Daiwa and a reply to me saw a new reel land on my doorstep 2 days later (no questions asked).They, being Daiwa reproduce parts however could take 18 months or more for them to redo parts runs (limited quantities)...Shimano, well "who knows"... Parts are expensive enough for what they are - I guess they have to keep making money somehow???I guess its just down to how much does a reel cost to replace these days. Something I constantly tell my people that I service for, a reel worth $130 AUD is only worth servicing twice in its lifetime over maybe 3 years or so depending on use and dunking in water. And just looking after it between service intervals with oiling critical areas.

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We are moving to a throw away society more and more. I have found this with lower end reels from all manufacturers not having available parts less than 12 months after being superseded by a new model. And i believe this will start happening with higher end reels sooner rather than later. It is called "Profit Margin". 

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Andrew, Dutchy, and others are right --

Most folks like us would like to be loyal to a manufacturer, and also for that producer of our reels to be loyal to us -- in turn.However, this Pollyanna approach on our part is not realistic in today's global economy.The Internet we all love has changed that -- now we can sit in our pajamas -- and order anything we need -- and it will be delivered to our doorstep between 2 and 6 days.As we have adjusted to this new retail consumer market -- the companies that intend to stay in business, have also changed their old views and methods of interacting with their customers (or they are no longer in business).They feel they have needed to throw out the ideas such as Loyalty, Support, Longevity of products, Quality, and even Employee Appreciation.Penn, Daiwa, Shimano, and Okuma -- all have similar stories, nowadays.History is an interesting teacher --Penn pioneered a new, less expensive tackle market that persevered for many decades.  Penn's success forced other manufacturers to close down shop -- including Ocean City.Daiwa flooded the market with literally thousands of various reel models and variations -- and widely different qualities and price ranges.Shimano saw the success of Penn and Daiwa -- and decided to build both cheap quality and very high quality reels.  They based part of their business model on really taking good care of the consumer, dealer, and repair shop.  In a majority of cases -- when a part was no longer available, a consumer was unhappy, a repair guy complained about certain issues with a reel -- Shimano would just either take care of the issue at no charge, or give the shop or consumer a newer, more advanced reel out of the box.  No questions asked.  Great advertisement -- and this extra effort insured brand loyalty for years to come.Now comes Okuma on the scene.  They look at Penn, Daiwa, and Shimano -- see what has worked, and what has failed -- and decided to concentrate on building both average and very high quality reels.  Give clients a little extra, increase quality yearly, and earn their place at the table.But as a consumer, whether we pay $1,300 for a Stella, $120 for a Lethal 100, $70 for a Jigmaster, or $24.99 for a low end Daiwa -- we need to realize that these companies are not going to keep new parts in stock forever.  We will be fortunate to have parts support for 2 or 3 years -- that is the reality as we are brutally honest with ourselves.When we can buy a printer for less than the replacement ink cartridge, or get a new expensive cell phone new every two years -- how can we expect anything different from the reel manufacturers -- who are using the same business model as every 21st Century company?Planned obselescence -- it will be interesting to watch.

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Alan Tani said: i had a conversation with the okuma guys a couple of years ago.  their market share had increased 15% a year for 5 years in a row.  all by listening to their customers.

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Good for Okuma.  I'm glad for them.

Penn has really created a customer loyalty marketing plan from the beginning as I see it.  We all have started out with their fairly inexpensive Squidders, Jigmasters, Senators,...on the conventional side, and Penn's silver series spinners.  All very reliable and inexpensive to maintain.  Then we moved up to the International Series and the SS series reels based on our loyalty and our confident reliability from Penn.Daiwa too had their many planned obsolescence if you look at their line-up but there were some true reels that gained Daiwa's loyalty and trust.  Daiwa's Sealine series from the 900H, 600H,...down to the 27H aluminum framed and side plate reels.  I have not see one of those gears shred yet.  They are real beefy, that's for sure.  And for their Spinners, the Black Gold line of reels.  I still have and use mine from probably 30 years ago.  Strong solid spinner reel that would honestly compete with Penn's SS series growing up in Hawaii.I think Planned Obsolescence was really created by USA's automobile industry.  At one time, cars were though to be used for 5 years then we would turn in the old car and buy a new one.  Then parts would be available for another 10 years just in case someone kept their car a little longer.  Prior to that, it was common for us Americans to drive a car for 10 years or longer.  They were easy to fix and parts were readily available even though the car was 20+ years old.  The Japanese automotive industry took what us Americans used to do and created a line of cars that lasted easily 300k miles before a rebuild was even considered.  They have created customer loyalty based on this.  Today, car companies cannot just survive on this customer loyalty, so cars too have gone the way of planned obsolescence....BTW, for Stellas, I have found that if you send Shimano a Stella reel, they will likely charge you the service fee, but parts are usually free.  My friends in Hawaii fish their Stellas very hard for GT.  They have stripped gears almost every year, and for the past 3 years, they have sent their reels in to Shimano and have been getting replacement gears for free.  Granted, if they had to pay $50 or more for a gear set every year, they would not continue to buy Stellas to complete their fishing reel line up...from 10# to 80# braid.  Bling bling...I feel poor just thinking about it.....

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If you listen to general discussion like the above found on Alan Tani's forum, it is clear shimano is throwing their reputation down the drain with overpriced everything! This is why they are losing market shares and why other companies are increasing theirs!

 

I think it is a safe bet to say "my opinion" is more grounded in truth and reality than just a loose opinion of mine thrown around carelessly.

 

***I am having to remove links to post this info here...

Wow you sure did copy a paste a novel to prove a very vague point with very limited information in alot of key areas such as the recession, dollar to yen ratio, and other factors. I can believe that people are tempted away to other brands like lews or abu, etc.. because their competing offerings will have more bearings and be lighter (which is a marketing strategy) for the same price range, but I've seen that for every angler that switches, just as many come to shimano. It's not an opinion, it's something that bassmaster magazine printed. Fyi Shakespeare was the best selling rod brand.. guess that makes them better than g loomis lol.

[Josh Smith]

Round Black Max (Ambassadeur-type) or the cheap Chinese Black Max II?

Josh

My 15 Abu Garcia black maxs will outlast all of your shimano and daiwa garbage! Mark my words!

[J Francho]

I have many different brands of reels.  I'd probably call myself a Daiwa fan, though I like my Shimano too.  The Daiwa and Shimano reels I use are mostly the OLDEST reels in my lot.  That should speak volumes.

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

What gets me is this was suppose to be fanboys for Shimano commenting. The TRUE FANBOYS shine through with their raging jealousy of yet once again Shimano getting all the attention. It eats at their craw that Shimano is always the brand other brands are compared to and Shimano most times is the brand that shines on top. Any commenters that posted thats not a Shimano fanboy by default is off-topic and shouldnt have replied. But see, as a TRUE FANBOY would do, they had to try to take down the one on TOP, to no avail.

[iabass8]

Round Black Max (Ambassadeur-type) or the cheap Chinese Black Max II?

Josh

My 17 chinese made black max reels will outlast Anything with a shimano no label. You heard it first right here!

[Cgrinder]

God I hate winter.

[iabass8]

God I hate winter.

MORE LIKE shimaNOTHANKYOUWONTBUYTHATCRAP

[buzzed bait]

same argument, different forum.......

coke/pepsi

ford/chevy

samsung/apple

DD/starbucks

fender/gibson

playstation/xbox

canon/nikon

and on and on and on and on........

 

and technically it's still fall, not even winter yet, plus it's unseasonably warm out!!!  save these threads for late January!

[*Hootie]

Topics like this make thankful for Facebook.

Hootie

[F14A-B]

To the Shimano naysayers...

The Posse is coming for you.

[k3bass]

Here's another example of shimano using bushings.

The symetre fj had an aluminum frame and bearings on both sides of the drive gear. The new symetre fl has a graphite frame and a bearing on one side of the drive gear and a bushing on the other. Shimano continues to downgrade their reels but keeps increasing the price. The funny part is if you look at the price of the replacement bushing from Shimano for the symetre fl it's 2 dollars more than the bearing on the other side! So why even use it????

[Ozark_Basser]

Shimano makes reliable, quality reels that bomb lures.

Given that. As far as high end goes, I'm a daiwa fanboy. They seem to offer a much more connected feel along with similar characteristics that shimano offers in their high end offerings.

[F14A-B]

You guys! Ok, I get it. You all don't like Shimano Corp....that's cool, but save your breath, cause all company's are in business to make money.

The End.

[shaggydog]

The information that I gather from most Shimano reel threads is that people who use Shimano reels do not catch near as many fish as people who use other brands. I see someone say something to the effect of the text in bold in almost every Shimano reel thread. I guess I should switch brands????

If your not catching any fish I would switch lakes.  I catch just as many fish with my shimano reels as l do with lews/abu/pflueger.  How come you want to switch brands?

[iabass8]

My 15 Abu Garcia black maxs will outlast all of your shimano and daiwa garbage! Mark my words!

you tell em!

[Jrob78]

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can't.    

[iabass8]

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can't.    

 

 

Did you just catch me trolling?

[gulfcaptain]

Wow!! I just PM'd the op when he asked about another reel, boy did this topic hit a nerve for some and get hijacked into a whole different discussion.  But lots of interesting reading and info.........carry on.

[Jrob78]

Did you just catch me trolling?

I did, I don't know why you can't ever take these important threads seriously.

[iabass8]

I did, I don't know why you can't ever take these important threads seriously.

 

Scary part...I think that FloridaFishin fella thought I was serious. He invited me to work out and he would buy nachos. At what point is free..."free"?

[Jrob78]

Sounds like you guys are going to have a lot of fun.  

[desmobob]

OK Shimano fans... give me some advice.

 

I'd love to have an opinion to add to this thread, but I don't own any Shimano bait casting reels.   For bait casters, I have four Lew's Tournament Pros, a Daiwa PX Type R, a Daiwa Alphas SV105, two Daiwa Tatulas, and two Abu Orra Winches.  

 

Just from the fear I'm missing out on the Shimano love, what Shimano bait caster should I try as my next reel purchase that will provide me with the authentic Shimano experience?  (It has to be left-hand retrieve and <$200; new or used.)

 

[i do own two Symetre and two Sedona Shimano spinning reels.  One of the Symetre reels is an old "Aero-Symetre" model and I really like it.  The newer one from this spring has already had a binding issue.  The two Sedonas are OK, but feeling a little sloppy already after light use.]

 

Tight lines,

Bob