The Physics Behind Overhand Vs. Roll On A Baitcasting Reel

[jyu87]

I know there are some genius' out there that could answer this question for me. I think I have it but I'd like to know the overall physics behind it. 

 

The current setup that I notice it most with is the Braided Reel setup. I've noticed that the likelihood that you are going to get a cinch in your reel is far higher when you do a overhand cast as opposed to a roll cast.

 

I've known this for a while but I'm wondering what is the true cause of this. Nothing is worst when you try to throw a overhand cast to a target with braid and you see it come right back at you. LOL. I'm sure Flouro would just snap but I don't see the "V" inside the reel as much.

 

So - here is my educated opinion on why it happens. 

 

With a overhand cast - you are fighting gravity at it's strongest direction - UP and Down. With this, causing more of a bend in your rod - leading to the rod bending and propelling a harder launch of your lure without your reel being adjusted properly considering the amount of roll casts you have more than likely setup the reel for. 

 

Is my assumption correct?

[poisonokie]

I think it has more to do with ergonomics than gravity. I usually sidearm everything and swing the lure around in a circle before letting it go. That way the rod is doing all the work and my thumb is in a better position to control the spool startup and my wrist is in a better position to control trajectory. If I want more distance, I put more arc into the cast rather than more power behind it. That works especially well with flatsides and vibes as the shape of the bait actually generates lift when it's oriented horizontally and adds distance.

 

Now, that's not to say that I never launch baits out there, but there's definitely more potential for backlashes and miscasts into trees or onto shore. It's just a more haphazard way to cast. Sometimes while fishing from shore it's necessary to overhand because of trees/weeds etc, but otherwise I don't see an advantage and oftentimes you're better off with a good pitch in that situation anyway.

 

Too bad Newton and Einstein were too busy solving the mysteries of the universe to be avid anglers!

[A-Jay]

Casting is a learned skill.  Regardless of the "Type" of cast and physics aside, if you're doing it correctly and you practice it, you're ability to do so will improve.

 

Setting up your reel effectively will greatly assist in the process.

 

But through it all - when it comes to casting any revolving spool gear, nothing is more valuable than an educated & experienced Thumb.

 

A-Jay

[jyu87]

Yup - trying to learning something new everyday. I do happen to bank fish a lot and casting space is always of compromise. I also take great pride in being able to cast into anything and everything - obviously experience is going to out muscle that. 

 

Great info - Wish I had a boat to go into some heavy brush and just practice skip casting all day. 

[Tim Kelly]

It's all about practice, not reel settings.

[fishindad]

Well I am definitely not a genius, at least with a baitcaster, lol. But here's my two cents from someone who learned to cast with Daiwa Millionaires and red Ambassadeur 5000's. Generally, when you are roll casting you're not going for distance - that's where the overhand cast comes in. Most all my backlashes happen because I am fishing expansive open water (Lake St Clair) and there's usually a good wind blowing and I haven't set the brakes properly. Throwing with the wind is quite different from throwing the same lure against or quartering the wind. That's where spinning gear shines and why I tend to use mostly spinning gear out there for smallies.

 

That said, I remember about 20 years ago at a show in WA state, I saw Stan Fagerstrom give a casting demonstration and he opened my eyes to the proper way to think about using baitcasters. Watch this old video (apologies for the quality, it's not mine but YouTube's): 

 But just listen to what he's describing and you'll get the message.

 

My opinion is to use casting gear for close-in, heavy cover fishing where accuracy rules. But for open water (clear water) fishing where I need to make bombing casts away from the boat, nothing beats a spinning outfit with braid and nylon leader. Especially when it's windy because I don't know about anyone else but when I'm searching for fish, I cast 360 degrees (or at least 180) around my boat and I can't do that with casting gear without readjusting the brakes every other cast. Si like the others (including Stan) have stated, nothing beats casting practice on and off the water.

[poisonokie]

That's why magforce rules, especially magforce 3d. I wish Daiwa would implement that on every reel.

[new2BC4bass]

Loved the video.  Thanks.

 

OP.  I know next to nothing about physics.  What I do know is that being smooth with a baitcast reel is of utmost importance.  I have to agree with poisonokie.   It is pretty easy to accomplish that smoothness with a side arm roll cast.  Smoothness with an overhead cast is harder to achieve.  Swinging the rod tip in a circle helps to eliminate the tendency to unload the rod tip by starting the forward motion too soon.

 

Making a larger arc on the roll cast does indeed increase distance without the necessity of adding more power to the stroke.  I personally feel adding more power to a roll cast is less likely to result in a backlash.  I think my casts are nearly the same distance for either type of cast, but admit that I'll elect for the overhead whenever trying for ultimate distance.

 

To me the problem with an overhead cast with a baitcast reel is the same as with a flyrod.  The idea is to keep the rod tip moving in a straight line. One must wait for the rod to load at the end of the backcast before starting the forward cast.  It is all about timing.  For this reason I try to add a small roll with my overhead casts.  However, doing so does hurt accuracy.  But I spend less time removing overruns or backlashes because I have smoothed out the rod's reversal.

 

The MagForce 3D is the absolute best braking I have ever used.  Never have used a Shimano DC so can't claim it to be the absolute best ever.  However.......................just like everyone has said.................practice can overcome most problems.  Ultimately the best tool in your repertoire is an educated thumb.

 

[Weld's Largemouth]

I think it has more to do with ergonomics than gravity. I usually sidearm everything and swing the lure around in a circle before letting it go. That way the rod is doing all the work and my thumb is in a better position to control the spool startup and my wrist is in a better position to control trajectory. If I want more distance, I put more arc into the cast rather than more power behind it. That works especially well with flatsides and vibes as the shape of the bait actually generates lift when it's oriented horizontally and adds distance.

Now, that's not to say that I never launch baits out there, but there's definitely more potential for backlashes and miscasts into trees or onto shore. It's just a more haphazard way to cast. Sometimes while fishing from shore it's necessary to overhand because of trees/weeds etc, but otherwise I don't see an advantage and oftentimes you're better off with a good pitch in that situation anyway.

Too bad Newton and Einstein were too busy solving the mysteries of the universe to be avid anglers!

This^

the difference in gravitational force between the two positions is negilible.

[k3bass]

It's all about practice, not reel settings.

It's both.

Having the right action rod plays a big role also.

[Catt]

Casting is a learned skill. Regardless of the "Type" of cast and physics aside, if you're doing it correctly and you practice it, you're ability to do so will improve.

Setting up your reel effectively will greatly assist in the process.

But through it all - when it comes to casting any revolving spool gear, nothing is more valuable than an educated & experienced Thumb.

A-Jay

Yelp!

A backlash is operator error!

[Tim Kelly]

It's both.

Having the right action rod plays a big role also.

If a rod can roll cast a bait, it can overhead cast it. It's all about practice.

[lecisnith]

Most likely you are using more shoulder/arm when you cast overhand than you do when you cast sidearm. When you cast sidearm you, when successful, bring your elbow back into your body and allow your wrist to rotate and the rod to work. As soon as I figured that out my backlashes went down to almost nothing. I try almost keep my elbow tucked in to limit the energy my arm exerts on the cast and that allows the rod to load and do the work as it is intended.

[k3bass]

If a rod can roll cast a bait, it can overhead cast it. It's all about practice.

Yeah I understand, but if you you practice with your reel set up incorrectly and say a rod that's way too stiff for the bait you're throwing it's going to take a lot longer to learn.