Topcoat testing

[whittler]

The baitmakers here who have been doing this for a lot of years already know this but for the new guys, especially those who plan on selling their baits, never put out something untill you have tested it.

Topcoats are a subject of a lot of discussion on all the bait making sites and be warned a lot of the internet information is bogus and hearsay. Test on products should be done not only in the shop but on the water actual fishing. Under hard use and real fishing conditions I have not found anything that will stand up to or give the look of epoxy. Have a cabinet full of about any coating you can name and other stuff that did not work.

I have used the three major brands and have had very few problems with any of them, Devcon 2Ton, E-Tex and Flex-Coat plus they all give a great finish. Also tried Dick Nite's, liked the finish but found it expensive with a lot of waste. There are some automotive topcoats that work well but only if you are setup to spray solvent based products.

The latest rage on a few sites are Target Coatings, they make an interior and a exterior, water based coating. They are very easy to apply, very little waste with quick cure times. If you are coating baits to set inside on a shelf they would be great but if your are going to use them for fishing, good luck. I have been working with this stuff since Feb. both on some test blocks and about a dozen finished baits. All the test pieces are painted with waterbased paints and are not touched with bare fingers after painting. Each has three total dips done from 2hrs. to 24hrs. between dips and allowed to cure for 72hrs. before being exposed to water. Held under water for 1 day it looks unchanged, 2 days it starts to get slightly cloudy and by a week it is almost white and starting to peel. The bait pictured is typical of what can be expected. Three small bass and 30mins. of casting and this is the result.

[islandbass]

Thank for for such and excellent post!

May I ask, so which top coat material is your top dog?

[whittler]

Strange as it may seem I still keep and use all three epoxies. Each has some qualities I like, especially used in combination.

[BIG M]

Great post and thanks for the info.

[whittler]

Thanks for your comments guys.

Doing a search for finishes you can get bartop, gymn floor, epoxy and furniture finishes but very few will work in a water enviroment. If it is not waterproof, not just water resistant, I have not found anything that will pass the test. It is also difficult to get first hand information. Most of what you hear is, "I have not used it but know a guy who does", without proof it is just babble, make that babble light.

[BIG M]

That's the reason I stayed with devcon for 5yrs but I found 1 better in flex coat ultra v.    E-tex, devcon, and flex coat have been tested over the yrs by many lure buiders and all three have passed the test of time.   I still fish baits made 6yrs ago with the devcon still holding strong.  

[bnwcrankin]

      Excellent post Idlov! You dont see many post like this on some other sites.. Everyone should post which clear's they've tried and how well they hold up. Would same some newbies alot of hassle and money. I still use Devcon on about 80% of my bait's. You just cant beat it. Lipless bait's are a different story though. The sharp edges will chip the epoxy in no time. I like spraying DN on those. I usually wait until I have 10 to 20 of them to clear before thinning enough to coat. Then I spray one light coat wait about 5 min (for solivent to flash off) then another, then maybe 5-8 more coats. Only take's a few minutes! Letting the first coat flash is mandatory! If you dont when you spray the next coat you will get bubbles from the first coat flashing. It is kinda pricey and if you dont know how to handle it, it can be a pain..

    I've got a few other's that I might try in the future and I'll be sure to let you guy's know how they work.....

   

[ToledoEF]

I am thinkin of trying this waterbase seal coat from Janns

http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/fishing-lure-paint/023025000411.aspx

Anybody ever use this?

[whittler]

Toledo, that is a decent finish for personal use, not as tough as epoxy but if it gets scratched you can just dip it again.

Barry, I would love to use some of the solvent based finisnes but I have an alergy to most of the solvents. Even using a respirator it really gets to me. Have dipped and brushed DN, tried it alone and both under and over epoxy, a lot of waste using it that way. For a guy making a few baits for his own use a good spar varnish, with UV protection works pretty well and its available about anywhere.

[.dsaavedra.]

idlov2fish, which target coatings product were you using? and how long did you wait after coating to fish that lure?

i've found with the superclear 9000 that it takes a good 5+ days to reach full hardness. i still haven't caught many fish using this topcoat so i can't really attest to its durability yet.

[whittler]

In the original post I said that all the baits and the test blocks were given a minium of 72hrs. cure time. The bait pictured had almost 3 weeks cure time before they were fished.

I have both EM9300 Ext. Clear and EM 9000 Super Clear and I could use the same picture to cover both materials. I do have some cabinets in my shop that I think it will work just fine for so its not a total waste.

[BobP]

Doggone it.  And I just spent $30 on a qt of Target Coatings 9300.  Idlov, I dip in Dick Nite and don't feel there is unreasonable wastage.  A quart still goes a heck of a long way and many many baits.  There's also wastage with epoxy.  You have to mix enough, so you always mix a little too much.  I choose Dick Nite or epoxy based on the bait I'm topcoating.  Each has advantages.

On crankbaits, we layer the waterproofing, the color basecoat, the paint, and the topcoat, and hope they are compatible and will hold together.  Most of us aren't coating scientists and have to learn how by trial and error.  Once you develop a coating sequence that works, you become wary of changing it.  Nobody wants to topcoat a batch of baits and stand there as it bubbles and wrinkles all that work into garbage.  That's one reason epoxy is so popular.  It's inert in regard to other coatings.  Brush it over anything.  Brush anything over it.  And it will lay there and do its job without bubbling, wrinkling, or eating the coating next to it.          

[whittler]

Bob, to be honest I cannot tell any difference between the 9000 and the 9300 on my test pieces. Both are very similar to Minwax Polycrlic in application and final finish they even look and smell the same. The Target finishes also do not have that depth of finsh of epoxy or DN, its more semi gloss even after as many as 5 dips. Had some old plastic baits that you could rub the finish off with your finger after a 5 days in the water.

I may give the DN another try, will be using some Bloxogen with it the next time. Tried brushing, spraying and dipping and seemed to waste about half of the quart. Did like the finished product but its hard to get me away from epoxy.

Good to see you here by the way, your talents and expertise will be welcome.

[BobP]

Oh yeah, if not for Bloxygen, I would have given up on DN by now!  My dipping jar has been going for more than 8 months now with no hardening because of the Bloxygen.  When it gets low, I just add some more DN.

[bnwcrankin]

I've been using salsa jars with the fluted necks. then wrapping aluminum foil and rubber band around the lid. So far, So good! I've heard of using wine bottle's too. The fluted neck doesn't allow much air in. Guess the wine bottle wouldn't help dipping though...lol... Good to see you on here Bob...

[crank4bass]

Try this one: McGrevor Coatings cure 80 polyurethane (non-yellowing). It's a moisture cure, we dip lures 3x.  We're producing large quantities so it makes sense.  This stuff once exposed to air starts curing so it needs to be used. Very good stuff and it's what many large manufacturers use or something similar. We are using this on balsa baits so it has to be tough.

[whittler]

crank4bass, I have checked their site in the past but they do not give much information on their coatings. It sounds very similar to Dick Nite's at first glance. They don't give cure times or recoat times and they don't say that it is waterproff or just water resistant. A gallon seems to be the smallest amount they list and no prices and thats a whole lot just for testing for me.

Thank you in advance for any more information you can offer on this coating. I would sure love to find something that has the toughness and look of epoxy that can be dipped.

[crank4bass]

We started with a product made by Delta Labs. These are industrial coatings that all the big boys use. Problem is you have to buy in volumes. They made a pretty good moisture cure that we used for a while but then came across this McGrevor product and we could get it locally in Knoxville and not have to pay the hazmat shipping fees. Turned out we like it better, it's expensive, I think around $70-$80 a gal. We normally let each coat dry a full 24 hrs.  It will continue to cure harder and harder for weeks but we will package after a fews days of curing. I would say it's water-proof, but our process uses 10 dips of different coatings, all contributing to it's durability and water proofing. Humidity will cause it to cure faster. There are some good 2-part epoxy's out there but we needed something that would be more suitable in a production environment and would not cure too fast. We store in an air tight vat with a top off of nitrogen.

[BobP]

I used salsa jars because of their fluted shape but in the end, the DN cooked off anyway when the level dropped as more air was stored in the jar.  Well, I changed salsa brands and now my jar looks like a Mason jar.  I couldn't get my super deep divers into the salsa jar because of their extra wide lips!  The big difference for me was Bloxygen.  I was about ready to give up on DN.  But now, it's my "go-to" topcoat and I'm not worrying about it curing in the jar.  I pour a little more DN into thte jar when the level goes down and as long as I shoot some Bloxygen in there before sealing the jar - no problemos.  I do wish I could find a cheaper Argon gas though - that's all Bloxygen is.

[whittler]

Bob they use argon gas in MIG welding but I have no idea what the cost is. Somewhere I have seen an argon gas cylinder that is used to store wine, came in what looked like c02 cylinders for an air rifle.

I'll probably think of where I saw it about 3:am.

crank4bass, stuff sounds great but for my limited production I'm not sure it would be worth it. Thank you forr the information.

[BobP]

I've checked out a number of "industrial coatings" and auto clearcoats.  Always open to something better and less trouble to use!  Of course, DN is an industrial coating, just repackaged by DN for resale in small batches.  The McGrevor sounds very similar to DN from crank4bass's comments.  The basic problem with auto clears is that the best ones are two part coatings that require a hardener and have a limited pot life after mixing.  And I figure if you have to mix it anyway, it's not much different from epoxy.  I'm still looking for a very durable, non-yellowing, cheap as dirt, easy to apply coating that will win me the prize as America's laziest bait topcoater. :

[bnwcrankin]

;D ;D  Me too Bob....!