Sd Jam Vs Improved Clinch, Underdog Wins

[paleus]

So, after trying the San Diego Jam for the first time this weekend and losing a good smallmouth right at my kayak, I decided to do a little testing. This is not a very scientific test and this may not hold true for all lines, I just wanted to find out for myself which knot works best with the line I use.

 

Set up: Tied my 50lb Rapala scale off to my desk. Tied the line to a wacky rig hook and hooked that to the hook on the scale. Pulled gently until the line broke. Filmed the scale with my camera to review at what poundage the line broke.

 

Line used: 8lb Berkley Trilene 100% Fluorocarbon

 

Results (in lbs):

 

Clinch:

6.21

7.18

8.09

7.18

7.49

Avg: 7.23

 

SD Jam:

6.28

6.70

6.61

7.69

5.33

Avg: 6.52

 

Double Clinch:

6.67

5.13

6.59

Avg: 6.13

 

I think the double clinch was weakened during cinching it down because there is more friction.

I left the Palomar out because I don't tie it due to the line waste and don't want to have to retie my leader all the time.

I was surprised by these results, since everything I've read about the SD Jam says it is a 94% knot.

I will continue to use the Improved Clinch knot, it is easier to tie than the SD Jam anyways.

 

[rippin-lips]

Throw the palomar in the mix and see where it falls. It's even easier to tie while on the water.

[paleus]

Throw the palomar in the mix and see where it falls. It's even easier to tie while on the water.

Yes, and I used to use it exclusively before going to braid mainline with a leader. With the Palomar, depending on the size of the lure, it creates a long tag and wastes a lot more line. I stopped using it so I wouldn't have to retie my leader so often.

[deep]

I'm pretty sure 8# Berkley Trilene FC is a *thick* line (probably break above 8# on a straight pull). Might be worthwhile to check that first.

[rippin-lips]

Yes, and I used to use it exclusively before going to braid mainline with a leader. With the Palomar, depending on the size of the lure, it creates a long tag and wastes a lot more line. I stopped using it so I wouldn't have to retie my leader so often.

I gotcha. I use braid with a leader myself. I tie a pretty long leader though. About 5ft or so in length. I mainly use the uni knot since I use fluoro for my leaders.

[Cgrinder]

You do you. Tie what makes you comfortable and lands fish.

 

Personally never had a San Diego Jam knot fail. I have had more than one Improved Clinch slip.

[SirSnookalot]

The problem with those "knot war" type tests is that's not the way to land to a fish.  With 8# line the drag should be set in the neighborhood of 3# or so.  With a fish pulling at 3# and more the line is being stripped off the spool taking a lot of pressure off both line and knots, none of those knots should break if tied properly.  Most of my lure connections are tied with a loopknot, at face it doesn't look too strong yet they land some powerful fish. That drag is on the reel for a reason, use it properly with any well tied knot and there should rarely be a problem.  Consistently landing 10-30# fish on a 20# leader compared to landing an 8# bass with an 8# leader, the equation isn't too different.  A properly tied knot, using the drag along with expertise will supercede the world's strongest knot every time.  

Slippage with different line types is a separate issue, that may require a different knot.

[Big Bait Fishing]

ive always had great success with the improved clinch , it's the only knot i use besides a palomar knot for a drop shot hook and using a uni-to-uni knot to join two lines .

[paleus]

The problem with those "knot war" type tests is that's not the way to land to a fish.  With 8# line the drag should be set in the neighborhood of 3# or so.  With a fish pulling at 3# and more the line is being stripped off the spool taking a lot of pressure off both line and knots, none of those knots should break if tied properly.  Most of my lure connections are tied with a loopknot, at face it doesn't look too strong yet they land some powerful fish. That drag is on the reel for a reason, use it properly with any well tied knot and there should rarely be a problem. 

Slippage with different line types is a separate issue, that may require a different knot.

 

Good points. I probably had my drag set a little high when I lost that smallmouth, and it was in a rocky river so abrasion may have been a factor as well. It just got me thinking, first time I use this knot and I lose a fish. 

[paleus]

I tested the Palomar, just out of curiosity:

 

6.92

7.65

2.53*

5.48*

5.79

7.84

5.70*

6.48

4.87*

Avg: 6.94

 

It was much less consistent. I took the top 5 for the average. The measurements with the asterisk were not included in the average.

[Team9nine]

Always fun to look at generated test data, but in my eyes, your post/data suggests two things to me:

 

1. The knot that works best is usually the knot you tie best. You happen to tie a good clinch knot, but are not so good at tying the others. For example, if you simply take your listed data sets and run standard deviations on them, you'll see the clinch knot easily has the lowest SD of the four (~25% better), while the other three are all almost identical (throwing out the 4 Palomar outliers. Much worse SD if you leave them in).
2. Every knot mentioned in this post or all the other previously related posts has someone who thinks it's the best, or at least has never had any issue with said knot. In my mind that simply shows how little pressure we put on knots when our equipment is set up correctly and you have a pretty good grasp of how to play a fish properly (very much inline with SirSnookalot's thoughts). 

-T9

[Logan S]

That 5.33 test killed the average for the SDJ, it was an outlyer to the rest....To do a more accurate analysis you should test the line an equal number of times and omit the highest an lowest readings for each knot. (IE, test it 7 times, but take out the highest/lowest and average the remaining 5)

 

Cool idea though, I always like these home-made tests.

 

I use a Palomar for everything myself .

[Mike L]

You do you. Tie what makes you comfortable and lands fish.

 

Personally never had a San Diego Jam knot fail. I have had more than one Improved Clinch slip.

Ditto

Mike

[zeth]

I use palomar and double sandiego jam. never have a problem with either.

[papajoe222]

The palomar knot tied with fluoro has failed me more often than not. Then again, I'm always attempting to set the hook and boat the fish in one move, so that's asking a lot of any knot. (Longfellow would be proud)

[paleus]

How many turns are you SD Jam users doing? I did 6 turns for both the IC and the SD Jam. Maybe I should do more for 8lb line?

[Mike L]

I use 6, but don't use anything over 12#.

IF I would use 10# or under it would be 8. (Non braid)

Mike

[Cgrinder]

I use four turns with pretty much everything.

[WRB]

When you tie your knots onto a single hook it can be difficult to keep the knot organized and snugged down evenly, resulting in poor knot strength.

Adding a weight to the hook like a cloths pen helps to tie knots like the San Diego jam knot onto unweighted hooks.. It goes without saying that FC line must be wetted before clinching down and clinched down evenly with loops over lapping, adding the weight allows you to wrap the line in lieu of twisting it.

Remember 80% knot strength is about average with most FC line. Rate of pulling force is very important when performing test and difficult without proper equipment.

What matters is using a knot that you can tie consistantly and that is obviously a clinch knot for you.

Tom

[hatrix]

I use 6, but don't use anything over 12#.

IF I would use 10# or under it would be 8. (Non braid)

I do 5 turns, wraps with pretty much any knot. It seems to be a pretty standard amount. As for the number of turns. I don't really think jus because you do X amount of wraps with X # line it makes it stronger. I have played around with doing more wraps and trying to break knots to see if it hold better. A number of times it kinda make it break easier. I think you are just adding more to mess up in the knot and make it weaker. If 6 wraps is good for 12# and up then it would stand to reason it should be with 10 and under. If those 2 extra wraps make it stronger then you should be doing 8 wraps on every line. The only time I think it might help smaller lines is if there was a possibility of it slipping. Is all that true? I can't say for sure but it makes sense if you think about it. At what point is it to many wraps and it actually makes the knot weaker?

Mike

[SirSnookalot]

The numbers do have a bit of range on those made tests.   Using the same knot with the same leader line from the same spool on the same testing apparatus, IMO the numbers should be a lot closer.  What in the testing caused the disparity?

Given any knot I tie the number of wraps used vary with the diameters of the lines.  Not suggesting what someone else should use but suggesting some trial and error to find what works best for you.

I cannot never get away from saying the 2 most factors are a well tied knot and using the drag, the size of the fish is secondary.  In theory the difference between landing a 1# or a 50# fish is just a little more time, the technique should not vary much.

[paleus]

The numbers do have a bit of range on those made tests.   Using the same knot with the same leader line from the same spool on the same testing apparatus, IMO the numbers should be a lot closer.  What in the testing caused the disparity?

 

Probably because I wasn't able to pull at the same speed everytime. I never jerked it and the line always broke, it wasn't the knot coming untied, but still that would be a variation in each test.

[MrBigFishSC]

I am not a statistician but your data should be converted into information a bit more thoroughly.

First you should clearly define the knot tying process steps.

Second you need at least 7 trials for all inputs.

Third you should show the actual results with mean, median, and standard deviation.

Fourth the outliers should be discarded and then the analysis in #3 ran again.

Since there are no specifications you are just comparing one variable to another in this case the knot. From there you can determine which knot under your test conditions has the highest capability.

Make sense?

[JeziHogg]

I'd like to see this done with a J Knot vs Uni to Uni vs Alberto

[poisonokie]

How many turns are you SD Jam users doing? I did 6 turns for both the IC and the SD Jam. Maybe I should do more for 8lb line?

 

I do 8 for 6-8 lb, 7 for 10-12, 6 for 14-17, 5 for 20 on a Sandy Eggo. Same goes for non-slip mono knots.