Is Hydraulic Steering Really This Hard To Bleed?

[Ski213]

As is typical with me I have about 20 projects at a time going. One of them is, and has been for awhile, getting my teleflex steering tightened up.

The system is about 6 yrs old I'm told. There has never been an issue with it as far as locking or being jerky in operation. There has always been some play though. A little at the wheel and then if you jerk the outboard around there is some in the cylinder. It's not been enough to make any real difference until its up on the pad. Early this year I replaced the seals with the basic seal kit since there was some minor leakage at the gland seals. That took care of the leak but I absolutely cannot get it bled. I can get it only back to where it was to begin with when it had the leak. I've read some places where a little play is normal but I've read others and been told by others who would know that its not.

I've bled it the teleflex way, I've bled it my way, I've bled it by myself, with a helper, checked for more leaks, had a mechanic bleed it, no better. The only thing that gets it tight is to turn hard over and jerk it another quarter turn at the wheel. She's tight then, for a couple minutes then back to what it was. This isn't like one of those deals where I'm being impatient either. It has literally been hours of bleeding.

Teleflex has been great as far as tech support. I've actually suggested that maybe its a bad helm or something and they say nope. Has air in it. Just has to be bled. I'd agree that it has air for sure. Lets say I bleed it and its cloudy and 80. I get tired of having teleflex oil on me and can't get anymore air so I quit and cap it off, or even leave the filler tube in with fluid in it hoping that air in the helm will make its way out overnight. Next day it's 90 and sunny. If its capped off, when I remove the cap fluid comes out, if the tube is in the level of fluid in the tube is much higher. I'm no expert on anything but that tells me the heat is expanding something. My understanding is that the fluid is pretty stable so its got to be air expanding and pushing the fluid.

Sorry for the lengthy post but does anyone here have any suggestions? Has anyone else run into this much problem bleeding one of these?

[Way2slow]

I use a modified version of Telefex's.

First thing, I slide clear tubing over the bleeders and run those into a clean container. That I sit in the splash well.

Set your fluid container up on the fill hole and never let the fluid get out of site while bleeding.

Then I turn the motor all the way in one direction and anchor it well with bungee so it won't move the other direction. The rod in the cylinder will be fully extended on one side and fully in on the other.

Open the bleeder on the end the rod is fully extended and start slowly (no more than 15 rpm) turning the wheel the opossite direction while watching for air bubbles in the bleeder hose. Don't be shy, run some fluid through it.

When no signs of air are going through tubing, close that bleeder, remove the bungee and open the other bleeder and turn the motor the opposite direction. Bungee motor in place and start slowly turning the wheel back the other direction, again watching for air bubbles.

If you have the proper fluid in it, by catching the fluid in a container, you can reuse it to fill your fluid container so you really don't use that much.

You might do this two or three times but it's the easiest way I've found to get all the air out.

When I bought mine, someone had put red dextron in it. I bought a gallon of the mil spec hydraulic fluid and purged it. Starting off by opening both bleeders and using compressed air to blow what I could get out and it still didn't take but a few times to bleed the system.

[Ski213]

Ok. Maybe I'll purge it and start over. Pretty sure it had the right fluid in it. It was a little dirty. Not visible particles, but a brown tint to it. Maybe it got contaminated when the cylinder was leaking. I'm also not turning the wheel that slow I don't think, so I'll give that a shot.

The way I was bleeding that worked the best for me was running clear lines off the bleeders to a t into one line back to the fill container. So I basically was just running a loop. The only thing I had to be careful of was wheni would get air bubbles back to the fill container I had to stop for a minute to let them rise out of the fluid so I wouldn't suck them back in. Do you see any problems with doing it that way?

[A-Jay]

 After all the trouble you've gone through, change that hydraulic fluid - can't hurt.

 

 Hydraulic steering fluid is clear, mostly odorless, and light-colored. 

If the hydraulic steering oil  contains dirt or is otherwise contaminated, the entire system should be flushed and the hydraulic oil replaced. Abrasive dirt is the biggest killer of hydraulic systems. Dirt or dust can enter the system when hoses are cut and fittings installed. It's best to flush out a steering system before the final hydraulic oil goes in, something to consider when making a repair. Your hydraulic system should be flushed out and oil replaced every five years.

Also the shaft should never be wet with oil. If it is, wipe it dry with a rag and check it again as you turn through a steering cycle. If a wet shaft comes out of the ram, the seals are leaking and need to be replaced. Check to see there is no pitting on the shaft, a sign of corrosion that will ultimately cause hydraulic fluid to leak out of the cylinder.

 

A-Jay

[Way2slow]

Telefex's list a few approved alternatives to their fluid. The mil spec fluid is one of those and I could get it for $38 a galllon from a repair shop at a county airport. Not sure what it would cost now, the last gallon I bought was about five years ago. Dextron is not an approved fluid, they only list it as a fluid you can use in an emergency, even though a lot of people seem to think it is and use it, and it does void the warranty if one applies.

MAKE SURE you have it fully turned in one direction and are bleeding from the bleeder the rod is fully extended. Don't try to bleed it with it centered or from the short end, the cylinder will trap the air and you may never get it bled.

If you turn it too fast it will create micro bubbles in the fluid (basically cause it to foam) and you will never get it bled.

Don't try to use automotive power steering fluids or regular 10W hydraulic fluids. Since this system has to operate the same in all kinds of temps and conditions, it has to use a fluid that has a very stable viscosity, and most regular fluids will not be suitable and maintain a stable viscosity. They are also way more subject to foam, Plus some can actually damage the seals in the helm and cylinder.

[Way2slow]

Time out, hold on, I was just reading over those directions and realized I screwed up BIG TIME one part.

I made corrections to my first posts, just be sure you always Open the bleeder and bleed the end the rod it fully extended out of, NOT THE OTHER END is said to start with. The end the rod is fully extended on is the end the internal piston on the rod is up against the gland nut, so there is no area there for the cylinder to trap air while bleeding.

I do open the bleeder on the short end before turning the motor back the other direction so hopefully any air that might be trapped in the cylinder will be pushed out the bleeder and not back up the hose to the helm, just to have to be worked back out again.

[Ski213]

Way2slow and A-jay I really appreciate the advice. I'm pretty certain that the fluid that I had in it is correct but I guess its past its service life. I used a new quart of the seastar stuff when I changed the seals but best case I've got I'm at a 1:1 ratio of new to old fluid. I almost just went to the closest marine place and grabbed the seastar fluid but figured I'd give the airport a shot. 1 gallon of the milspec was ten bucks more than 1 quart of the seastar stuff. Well worth having to buzz through a couple security doors to pick up.

The cylinder rod is good. The rod doesn't bury completely into the cylinder when turned to the stop. I noticed that before, and although I couldn't see any interference,I took the cylinder completely off to make sure that's as far as it would go. It was the same with it off the brackets.

I wanted to purge it tonight but I don't have a water separator on my compressor so I was concerned about blowing moisture into the system but I will remedy that tomorrow. Going to abandon cycling the fluid the way I was cause if I am getting micro bubbles then I'm just putting them right back in. Having a gallon of the fluid gives you a little wiggle room.

Agian I really appreciate y'all's time.

[Way2slow]

If you are going to use your compressed air, use very low pressure and be gentle.  That system operates under pressure but that reservoir system doesn't and don't know how much pressure it will stand and wouldn't really want to find out.  I used a tapered rubber tip on mine and never did press it hard down on the inlet so it could make a lot of pressure.  Also go ahead and open both bleeders a couple of turns and turn the steering wheel back and forth a couple of times while doing it.  When you put your new fluid in, if  you waste about  pint in each direction to make sure it's fully flushed, you should be able to catch and reuse it from there.

 

When you install the new seals, Inspect your rod very closely and use something like 800 grit wet/dry to clean it up, that  will also help the seals seat.   I've resealed mine twice and it's starting to leak again now.  It looks like about every three years or so I'm doing it.  My rod has some very fine signs of wear out near the end where it changes directions and I think it must be enough to cause problems so this time when I put seals in it I'm going to replace it,  Any little small imprecation on a hydtraulic cylinder rod can create problems as small as those seals are.     Might be a waste  but I'm going to see if I can get more than three years out of it.  don't know, might just the life span of those small seals. 

 

One other thing, find a auto parts store or industrial supply house that sells tubes of LubriPlate 105 and get you a tube.  That is the best stuff you can use for put those gland nuts back on and getting the seals to slide on.  I've been using that stuff for almost everything I put together, engines and all since 1970, and swear by it.  "Just don't try to use on piston rings, you would never get them to seat."

 

You mentioned having play. You need to identify the source of the play.  It could be in the steering wheel before it gets to the SeaStar helm or it could be in the linkage back at the motor where the link connects the motor to the cylinder.  There should be no play in the SeaStar system itself.   If your boat chine walks, it's almost impossible to drive at WOT if there is play in the steering.

[Ski213]

If you are going to use your compressed air, use very low pressure and be gentle.  That system operates under pressure but that reservoir system doesn't and don't know how much pressure it will stand and wouldn't really want to find out.  I used a tapered rubber tip on mine and never did press it hard down on the inlet so it could make a lot of pressure.  Also go ahead and open both bleeders a couple of turns and turn the steering wheel back and forth a couple of times while doing it.  When you put your new fluid in, if  you waste about  pint in each direction to make sure it's fully flushed, you should be able to catch and reuse it from there.

 

When you install the new seals, Inspect your rod very closely and use something like 800 grit wet/dry to clean it up, that  will also help the seals seat.   I've resealed mine twice and it's starting to leak again now.  It looks like about every three years or so I'm doing it.  My rod has some very fine signs of wear out near the end where it changes directions and I think it must be enough to cause problems so this time when I put seals in it I'm going to replace it,  Any little small imprecation on a hydtraulic cylinder rod can create problems as small as those seals are.     Might be a waste  but I'm going to see if I can get more than three years out of it.  don't know, might just the life span of those small seals. 

 

One other thing, find a auto parts store or industrial supply house that sells tubes of LubriPlate 105 and get you a tube.  That is the best stuff you can use for put those gland nuts back on and getting the seals to slide on.  I've been using that stuff for almost everything I put together, engines and all since 1970, and swear by it.  "Just don't try to use on piston rings, you would never get them to seat."

 

You mentioned having play. You need to identify the source of the play.  It could be in the steering wheel before it gets to the SeaStar helm or it could be in the linkage back at the motor where the link connects the motor to the cylinder.  There should be no play in the SeaStar system itself.   If your boat chine walks, it's almost impossible to drive at WOT if there is play in the steering.

I ended up getting most of the old fluid out this evening before I met up with a buddy to do a couple hours of fishing. Luckily I read your post first and went real easy on the air. Really just enough to give the fluid a push. Worked good. I was feeling ambitious so I ended up taking the hoses loose and the cylinder and the helm both of and drained as best I could. Then blew the hoses out with a less gentle air pressure. Made a h*** of a mess in the driveway.

Tomorrow I will hopefully have time to flush new fluid through and get it filled back up and start bleeding again. I'm going to try to do it with the cylinder off. I looked at the whole deal again and I think maybe the cylinder actually does have a little more travel to one side. Like the rod doesn't go quite as far in on one side as the other. It's not much if its any but I guess it wouldn't take much to allow a fair amount of air to be trapped in the cylinder. I'm not sure what the right terminology is but the piece that the seastar bracket attaches to on the motor where you go from seastar parts to the motor, maybe the tiller?, has a bolt that limits motor travel. Seems like that might be stopping it a touch early one way. Gotta look closer at that tomorrow. I checked that once before but I've missed stuff on the first pass before.

I'm gonna check out the lubriplate stuff. Its funny you mention the ring seating thing. I learned that lesson the hard way several years ago before I learned the concept of ring seating. In fact it taught me what the point of seating the rings was.

My play is definitely at the cylinder, or I should say in the seastar system. I can kick the outboard and see movement between the rod and the cylinder. Not a ton but not what I would call zero. I could have play elsewhere, I know you had told me that sometimes you had to go to solid mounts, but I can't tell with the cylinder play.

Thanks once again!

[Angry John]

I have never had this system so it may be different but when i do brakes and power steering in my car i use a small vacuum pump.  It works really good on my motorcycle brakes where you have to pull the air down the brake lines to the calipers.  The one i have is called a mighty vac.  Another thing that may help is bleeders with check valves.  I found out about these for my bike after many brake jobs and they are a life saver.  Just some out of the box thinking that may or may not help.

[Way2slow]

If you try with the cylinder off, how are you going to hold the rod fully extended to bleed it? Remember, you are bleeding the side the rod is extended and the when you turn the helm, it's trying to push it back in to the other side. DO NOT try to clamp anything on that rod to try and hold it. If you do, YOU WILL RUIN IT. It's actually fairly soft and will dent and scratch very easily.

[Ski213]

Alright scratch that idea then. I was going to clamp it with a small pair of vice grips padded with a 1/4" thick peice of rubber. Figured that would keep from scratching it but I didn't realize it was soft so I could still dent it. I guess I can remove that bolt thing that limits travel on the engine. That way I know the cylinder is going all the way to both sides and I can still use the outboard to hold. Glad I jumped on here before I went to town on it.

[Ski213]

I have never had this system so it may be different but when i do brakes and power steering in my car i use a small vacuum pump.  It works really good on my motorcycle brakes where you have to pull the air down the brake lines to the calipers.  The one i have is called a mighty vac.  Another thing that may help is bleeders with check valves.  I found out about these for my bike after many brake jobs and they are a life saver.  Just some out of the box thinking that may or may not help.

I appreciate the reply and the suggestions. I have one of those vac pumps. I used to use it on dirt bike and 4wheeler brakes. It was awesome for that. I didn't have as much luck when I had to replace the brake lines on my 2500hd. I think cause of the ABS module. I had better luck just doing it the old school way on that for some reason. Technically it was supposed to be bled with a GM scanner. Im thinking it was because your have the valves and such in the module so unless you actuate those you're not bleeding from everywhere. It's hard to say. Usually the weak link in the chain is me rather than the tool or the machine I'm working on.

I've got only a pretty basic knowledge of how this system works so I'm unsure if the vac pump would help. I can't imagine it would hurt though. Only issues I can see would be the amount of fluid you're trying to cycle and that I don't know exactly how the helm pump works so I'm not sure if it would work on this system.

I always meant to get some of those bleeders when is was messing with the MX stuff all the time. My is actually due for a brake job. I guess that'll be project 21. There any specific brand you like?

If you try with the cylinder off, how are you going to hold the rod fully extended to bleed it? Remember, you are bleeding the side the rod is extended and the when you turn the helm, it's trying to push it back in to the other side. DO NOT try to clamp anything on that rod to try and hold it. If you do, YOU WILL RUIN IT. It's actually fairly soft and will dent and scratch very easily.

I ended up pulling the bolt and just holding the outboard. This thing bleeds textbook from everything I've been told. Up till you get the the fluid coming out of the cylinder air free. From the start with helm filled but lines and cylinder empty the wheel does nothing till the fluid makes it to the back. Then its real jerky at the wheel with all the air still trapped. Pushed about a pint and change through both sides and disposed of that. On about the third cycle I stopped getting air at the cylinder. I could always get the helm to burp though. I even took alot of care to make sure that what I was filling with didn't have small bubbles in it from transferring it to the fill container before I would cycle it through. This really has the feel of I'm introducing a little air as I'm bleeding. Way2slow I'm pretty certain I read somewhere once a post you made about the fill method you used. It wasn't the sea star kit. The seastar kit is what I'm using so its a plastic or I guess nylon fitting that is threaded to barb then the hose to the barb on the seastar bottle. If that system had an air leak it would have the same effect as if I had a bad helm seal wouldn't it? Every time I turned the wheel I'd be pulling a little air with the fluid?

[Way2slow]

What I had was nothing but a barb fitting with a 3/8 barb I screwed in the fill port, slid a short piece of hose on it, I used a plastic oil bottle with the tapered spout off a gear lube bottle pushed down in the hose. That was I didn't have their bleeder kit, had to drive 50 miles one way to get one and didn't care to pay the price they wanted for it.

The helm may be trapping an air bubble. I had a piece of equipment that had vertices mounted master cylinders and it was impossible to bleed the brakes on it using conventual methods because it trapped air. The only way you could bleed it was to back bleed it through the bleeder to push the air pocket out.

I doubt the valves in the helm are going to allow anything like that though, a master cylinder has a residual valve, that helm doesn't, Have you tried just doing small back and forth movements on the steering wheel to see if you can work it out, no more than 1/8-1/4 turn. It may finally burp it out doing that.

I use that trick a lot when installing a new master cylinder. Just barely move the valves and it will burp the air out rather than have to push it through the whole system. Works great a lot of times.

You are keeping the bleeder reservoir filled and not letting the fluid get below where you can see it.

Are you opening the bleeder on the short side when you start moving the motor in the opposite direction? if not, try that, if you are try it with out opening it.

[Ski213]

I will try moving the wheel back and forth a little. I've done it with and without opening the short side bleeder. If I turn hard over and kick the motor from the side it's turned toward. Hard. It burps a big bubble at the helm. Turn the other way and same thing. A little smaller bubble. Turn it back and can't get anymore until I let it sit for a few. Then I can kick it and get another bubble. over and over. I can also get it to burp if I turn hard over and then give it a short tug past the stopping point. Not as big as when I kick it. Id say you're right and there is air trapped cause as much as I can force out I'm getting no air at the cylinder.

[Way2slow]

I'm glad it's yours and not mine. As much as you've worked with it, my fun meter would have pegged a long time ago and I would have probably done some serious damage by now. When I get to that point I run out of GAS. Not the kind you are thinking, that's also the acronym for Give A Sh** and when I run out, it's time to get out of my way.

I was changing intakes on my car one time and had to get the carb off to get to the center bolts. After wrestling with a couple of nuts that didn't want to come loose until I had enough, one BFH (Big F Hammer) and a couple minutes later the carb was off and lying in the parking lot.

That's one reason I don't usually work on others stuff, if I pull a stunt like that, it's mine, don't have to worry about any repercussions, other than to my wallet.

[Angry John]

I use goodridge brake bleeders and sensors.

[Ski213]

Ha! Got the d*** carb out of the way though! I've been known to use a BFH from time to time. The most it ever cost me in one swing was $571. Centrifugal clutch. Ive fixed alot of stuff with hammers too though. My meter is pegged, has been for a little while. I'm going to go ahead and move all striking tools at least 200' away from the boat now that I'm thinking about it. I'll have to walk away from it for a day or two if i dont get it this afternoon. Sometimes when something has got me tore up that helps.

[eliteangler]

Did you ever find out what the problem was?  I know this thread is old, but I am having a tough time with mine as well.  I have bled a couple of these before and didn't have any trouble.

 

[Ski213]

2 hours ago, eliteangler said:

Did you ever find out what the problem was?  I know this thread is old, but I am having a tough time with mine as well.  I have bled a couple of these before and didn't have any trouble.

 

I never found anything wrong. I bled and bled using all the good advice I got above. I did finally get it. There must have been a air pocket somewhere.

 

I'll give you a rundown of my final 24 hrs on it as I remember it going. I ran a clear hose from each bleeder to a single T fitting, from that fitting I ran a single clear hose to the fill bottle at the helm. I made dang sure that every connection between the fill bottle and helm was airtight. Filled the fill bottle (which was a clear bottle). Opened both bleeders and turned the wheel at a slow rate as suggested above. The hose running back to the fill bottle allows you to really move a lot of fluid through fairly quickly. One thing I had to watch was air bubbles getting in the fill bottle. Even going slow they would try to get into the helm. A couple times I had to stop and let them rise out of the fill bottle.  The problem with this method is to some extent you are probably getting some of the air right back in even if you're careful and you run the risk of contaminating the fluid. I was definitely getting more out than I was putting in and was super careful to not allow any contaminants in so I kept going. I ran a lot of fluid through, a lot.  I got a couple good size air pockets out.  I stopped, left fluid in the fill bottle, covered the open end so nothing could get in and let it sit until the next afternoon. Every so often I would tap on the helm to encourage any air to rise out. Next afternoon I bled it exactly as @Way2slow advised at the beginning of this thread. I got a little more air but not much. That final bleed got the last little bit.  Closed everything back up and that was that. If you're certain you don't have any leaks in the system you might give that a shot. Sorry for the lengthly post. 

 

I thought I posted on here that I got it and to thank everybody but I see I didn't. It's a lot late but thanks to everybody for the advice.