Microwave Guides?

[masterbass]

I'm watching the "bass dr" on wfn.  The guy is using bulldawg rods and he said they work as advertised.  Isn't Aaron Martens using these guides on his new rods?  Does anyone have any experience with these guides?

[Tim Kelly]

I thought they looked like a gimmick, but eventually couldn't resist giving them a try, so I put them on a light spinning rod I built recently. Have to say, I'm very impressed. The choking system seems to work very well and the running guides are about a size 5, so small and light without being micro guides which can make fishing braid with leaders tricky. The guide frames are also a good design, so like the fuji K series, they are very resistant to being bent.

[Montanaro]

Why can't they just run the smaller guides instead of having them inside a larger guide?

[smalljaw67]

Why can't they just run the smaller guides instead of having them inside a larger guide?

 

I thought the same thing when I first saw them and then I had it explained to me and I'll try to explain it the best I can.  If you use the smaller guide right off the bat, you will end up with line slap and a quick choke which will shorten the cast because a lot of friction at the first guide. By having a larger guide first, it acts as a funnel, the large guide grabs the big loops coming off the reel and then funnels the line to the smaller guide which takes out the rest of the loops. If you used 2 guides, the second would have to be close and stand tall off the blank to make a smooth transition, there is a lot of stuff at play and if you watch a video demonstration it is pretty neat and everyone I ever talked to that has tried it claims it does work. Now, I'm not entirely sure how much it helps or if it even helps at all on casting gear but on spinning the consensus says it does work, but it does look cool, watch a video on them.

[BobP]

I'm still skeptical.  A standard spinning guide set has the large first guides sitting off the blank a good distance (about 1 1/2") to do exactly the same thing.  For me, it boils down to how much do the microwave guides weigh compared to various other guides?  Not saying they don't work but If the "guide inside a guide" structure of the microwave ends up weighing more than a standard Alconite guide, for instance, I don't see any advantage.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

The microwave system works as advertised. I've used them on several builds. They are especially good when the reel and line to be used are unknown or will change from time to time. Similar performance can be obtained with Fujis KR concept ( high framed smaller ringed guides ) but with some limits on reel/line choices. The microwave sets weights the same or less than standard guide trains.

[MickD]

You guys have mixed up two different systems, the Microwave by American 

Tackle, and just micros, which can be any brand.  Microwave sells a complete system all in one, with the double guide, another reduction guide, then 5 mm running guides to the end .  The other systems using micros have to be designed by the builder. (spacing, guide diameter and guide height.).   Usually there are three reduction guides followed by micros to the end, and the micros can be a lot smaller than 5's.  As someone commented, the biggest issue with both systems is passing a leader knot, although the Microwaves, with 5 mm running guides can take a number of knots.  For the smallest micros you either don't use leader knots or try the FG knot which is the smallest knot.  I'm just getting experience on the FG, but I think it is small enough to go through most micros ok unless you are using very heavy leader.

 

The major improvement to having really small guides, especially in the tip area, is that it lightens up the tip giving better sensitivity.  Some argue smoother casts and longer casts, but most of us can cast far enough with any system, and the distance difference is not all that great, IMHO.  

 

When using micros on fairly heavy duty freshwater rods Fuji has a KB ( I think that's what it's called) with a big foot to take the stresses that develop on the small guides in the middle of a heavy duty blank).  

[MickD]

Go to this site, click the "catalog" button, and go to page 46 of the catalog for Fuji's recommendations on setting up micro rods with their K series guides.  Keep in mind that the K series is tall, so you have to keep the height dimensions in mind if you plan to use rod tubes.  Recent testing has indicated that the height is more important than ring diameter, so the first guide is likely to be smaller in dia than the older systems.  Also keep in mind that if you plan to use braid under 15 pounds almost anything will cast great.

 

One thing I forgot to ad about the Microwave guides is that the setup for them is much simpler than any other system.  American Tackle tells you where the first three guides should be located for best performance.  The rest of the guides are a piece of cake to locate.  

[.ghoti.]

I've built three spinning rods with Microwave guides, and can say they are the real thing. Have no experience with the casting version, so I can't comment on that setup.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

I agree on the spinning guides. The casting guides are going to be a tough sell to me though.

[S Hovanec]

I built one with the casting guides. I can't see how they will make a difference. I have one more build scheduled with them. After that, I doubt I'll ever use them again.

[Kyle46N]

Spinning...yes......casting.....no

 

On that note, my spinning setups are medium action with light braid.  These already cast a mile as is.  So, I don't see what application would require me to need a mile and and extra 10 yards.

[MickD]

Forgot to give the Fuji site:  http://anglersresource.net/

 

RE the casting setups, for many years some experienced builders of microwaves have been saying that the rod will work better with at least one, maybe two, rear guides that are bigger than the micro running guides.  Fuji has video on a casting setup with higher guides in the first two positions, size about 6 if I remember right.  The microwave casting setup is consistent with these philosophies.   So there just may be some merit in the argument that casting setups are not as straightforward as most think.  It is talked about in terms of damping/controlling a "wave" that comes off the reel, even those with small level wind eyes.

 

I like the comment about using light braid.  It is correct.  With light braid almost anything will cast very well.  (spinning)

[SirSnookalot]

I watched a video just now, had no idea what they were.  At least in the video the loops got straightened out, whether that's the case in real life application I don't know.  More important is not to have the loops in the first place, my sop is to always raise my rod so my line is tight, no loops before I start reeling.  Wind knots can be cause by a few factors, one of them is when the braid hits the first guide when the line comes off the spool very fast, with the microwave there still is a larger first guide with a small one inside.  With hard snap cast the line still will hit the first guide, may or may not eliminate wind knots.  I tend to make long flowing casts keeping the line coming off the spool too fast.  I've changed brands of my braid, wind knots have been a thing of the past.

Weight is of no issue to me, a little more less no big deal.  I'm an old school kind of guy, all I need is for the line to pass thru guides and the guides don't corrode.

I might buy a rod that had them, wouldn't pay an extra nickle to put them on an existing rod.

[Kyle46N]

SirSnookAlot, what is the new braid you switched to?   Windtamer? 

[MickD]

The Fuji video is not about loops that occur after the cast, on reeling, it's about the loops that occur throughout the cast.  There is nothing you can do during the cast to prevent them or minimize them.  Whether the baitcasting guide setup, position, height, size, affects their growth and/or the reduction of them is debatable, but it's all up to the rod, not the fisherman.  

 

I can see one other variable in this, and that is the Daiwa level wind setup where the line goes off the spool without going through a reel mounted eye or guide.  It goes on guided, but comes off freely without  an eyelet.  I don't have a clue how that might affect the line movement through the rod guides.

[SirSnookalot]

I have not noticed loops being created during the cast when the line comes off perfectly straight from the spool.  When I do have a loop it's generally on a lighter set up when get a little negligent in not insuring my line is tight before reeling my lure in.  In other words the loop is on the spool before I cast.  I deal with spinning gear only.

[oomph]

+1 - On spinning reels with the microwave guides casts very nice.  

[SoFloBassFiend]

On July 21, 2015 at 5:12 AM, SirSnookalot said:

I have not noticed loops being created during the cast when the line comes off perfectly straight from the spool.  When I do have a loop it's generally on a lighter set up when get a little negligent in not insuring my line is tight before reeling my lure in.  In other words the loop is on the spool before I cast.  I deal with spinning gear only.

Watch slow mo video of line coming off a spinning reel and you'll see the "loops" or line coils coming off the spool and then hitting the larger diameter guide of the microwave before the smaller guide inside it. 

[MickD]

Best way to see what the line is doing coming off the reel is to cast into a setting sun.

If you are satisfied with what you have, just use it and be happy.  If you're interesting in improving what you have, try some of these systems yourself.  No need to theorize on what will happen.   Just try them.

[FloridaFishinFool]

 

From back in 2002:

"Scott's idea of light-tackle is not ultra-light gear. He's designed a Sportackle™ spinning rod with a sturdy butt section and tapered tip to handle light-line and downsized lures, but capable to battle bruiser-size bigmouths.

The Ray Scott Sportackle™ rod is custom-made in 6 ½ and 7-foot models with unique smaller guides to improve casting distance and accuracy with spinning tackle.

"The first stripper guide is only about the size of a dime," continues Scott. "This small guide quickly reduces the size of loops off the spool and line slap on the blank to increase casting distance and accuracy," explained Scott, who has been experimenting with the design for almost 20 years.

"First time, I realized that conventional, silver-dollar size stripper guide didn't perform with the most efficiency was meeting a Japanese world champion distance caster at Lew Childre's booth at the Chicago Tackle Show in the 1970s," said Scott. "His surf casting rods had a super-small stripper guide."

And:"Scott's spinning rod design weighs only 2.3 ounces. But, don't confuse lightweight with a wimpy, ultra-light rod. This stick either in 6½ -or - 7-foot, has butt strength to handle a bruiser-size bass, but a taper and tip to easily cast lures as light as 1/16th ounce on four-pound test line.

To reduce weight, and increase sensitivity, the one-piece blank is constructed through a cork handle with no reel seat or heavy hardware. Commonly called, the "Tennessee handle," the spinning reel is mounted with the use of electrical tape.

Scott's downsizing theory is revolutionary as far as typical spinning rod size guides. Starting with the "dime-size" gathering guide 18-inches in front of the cork handle, the guide placement is increasingly smaller toward a tiptop with a "pinpoint size opening."

"Conventional spinning rods feature an oversize stripper guide and normal size guide placement," points out Scott. "With smaller size stripper guide and reducing the overall guide sizes, there's less line drag and slap on the cast and improves casting distance and accuracy," he claims."

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

A smaller stripper without appropriate hight is counter productive. The same performance can be achieved with other guide trains like Fujis KR concept but the Microwave spinning absolutely works and is a no brainer to setup for novices. 

[FloridaFishinFool]

 

[BigSkyBasser]

I used the microwave guide set on my first MHX  build. Using them on a bait casting set up I was interested to see the outcome, and it works amazingly! I did have to tweak the guide spacing a little bit because of how far off the blank the line was initially held by the wave guide. The thing casts farther than any of my regular micro guide rods by at least 20-30 feet on average with the same reels, line, and lures.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Why do you credit the guides and not the blank?