Albright Knot Fails?!!

[Master Bait'r]

MasterBait'r, keep in mind that neither line broke, so it wasn't that the leader was a higher test than the line that caused the failure. Where this know first was used, in salt water, the leader is always the higher diameter of the two lines. I've thought in the past that maybe the smaller dia flouros couldn't take the super tight bend induced by this knot, but getting both parts back and seeing that neither broke confirms that the knot came apart, didn't break either line. The knot came apart not with a hook set or a fight, but just jerking a surface lure. I'm still convinced that the knot doesn't like going through micros. With that knot, the tag end of the flouro, which was trimmed at about 1/16 inch, goes through the guides in the direction that would tend to snag it on the guides. So every cast the tag end of the flouro gets tweaked a few times.

Without a conclusive answer to why this knot failed, I'll just go back to the double uni, shorter leader so it doesn't have to go through the guides, and I'll be confident that the knot won't unravel. Thanks for all your opinions.

Fair enough on the diameter, but I would bet you the farm It's not the micros. If it pulled out just tugging a topwater along, it's time to admit there was a problem with the knot. If it was a good knot that would NEVER happen. EVER. I'd just use something you have 100% confidence in like you said. I want to make the FG knot work SO BAD but I just don't have confidence in my ability to tie it on the fly just yet so I won't use it on the water.

[MickD]

Eagle, this makes the most sense to me of any other thing I've read about this topic.  Now I'll wait to see all the doubters come forth.

[Kersey]

Try a "FG knot", and yes Iv had the improved Albright fail me a few times and I'm super OCD about checking my knots in the span of a year and a half and have switched to the FG knot.

[mcipinkie]

I can't stay away from this.  You've had the knot tied for a couple of DAYS casting and you think something is wrong with the knot when it comes undone?

 

I use the Alberto for everything.  50 lb braid to 25 lb flouro is my bread and butter rig.  Hard to cinch up tight.  I pull the tags with pliers.  I pull up trees with that rig.  I have use the boat to break off when I get hung.   I also like to use 10 lb braid with 12 lb fluoro leaders to shakey head fish and jerk bait.  I retie every few hours.  I start out with a leader about 5 ft long, cut off and retie my lure regularly.  When the leader gets to about 3 ft, I retie it all. 

 

I fished double uni's for years and had no problems, but the Alberto just looks and feels right to me.  It's a good knot, probably the best.

 

Strongly urge you to re tie more often.  Nothing will last for days of casting, particularly if you are using micro guides.  That's a whole "don't do this" unto itself.

 

 

[Jon G]

Emerson, with all due respect, the knot was tied properly, tested fine, and was used for a couple days on the water before it failed.  Fortunately I was using a surface lure so got both lines back and noticed both were curled.

 

I have had this happen before, but assumed I had not tied it correctly.  This one was tied correctly.  I'll be interested in the post about 15 # flouro tied to 10 pound braid being the problem.  More to come.

It's very possible that it got damaged and weakened if you were using it for a few days.

[masterbass]

When I tie the alberto I always cinch it by pulling apart the tag and mainline of the fluoro and then the tag and mainline of the braid.  I trim the tags really close.  I leave mine tied for many days until the leader gets too short.  I also like the leader either short enough not to go through the tip guide if using micros or long enough to go through the first guide and not get into the reel on standard guides.  No issues for me at all.

[MickD]

I've got five rods in the boat, switch between them often, fished a few days, probably two, for four hours each, total time on this rod not all that long, and the knot (PROPERLY TIED) comes undone/unraveled.  NOTHING BROKE!  That duty cycle would be a piece of cake for a double uni.  If this knot is the best knot ever as some profess it should not come undone WITHOUT ANYTHING BREAKING with this duty cycle when properly tied. I've used double unis for years, I'm not new to this stuff.  When I got lazy fishing unis in Canada for 12 hours a day for four or five days, and they failed, it was clearly that they got battered up for too long.  That was about 10 times the duty cycle this knot had.

 

I'll try masterbass's approach and see what happens.  Note that he doesn't let the knot go through the micro tip.  Possibly to prevent damaging the knot?  When you put all the opinions together, and with so many variables in techniques, expectations ("I rety mine every few hours"  Why?  To prevent it from failing?) both fishing and tying, there is nothing totally definitive.  But I'm inclined to believe that this knot just doesn't like going through the micros and because one of the lines has no stretch, it doesn't get "set" like knots with line stretch.  This is a very simple knot compared to a uni-uni, and with the turns all being the non-stretch line, it shouldn't take a lot to get that non-stretch line moving.

 

Thanks for all your attempts to help.  Much appreciated, and I think I have a better idea of what's going on now.

[icemonkey]

for me it was a bit different, 

 

the first time I though it was me and I was really bummed out that I lost a big one. so I pulled out my phone and followed the instructions exactly and the knot looked exactly like the site.

 

it worked with no problem reeling in 2x med size perch, but maybe that was my mistake and i should have retied it at that point. 

 

But does that not defeat the purpose ... I am sure you do NOT want to spend all your time to tie a knot that you have to retie every few fish vs something that just works the whole time your out on the lake?

 

when I said screw the Leader had no problems after and reeled in 1x 2lb and 1x 2.5lb. \

 

I personally prefer to tie less and cast more and not worry that if it will fail. Lots of people have said the more things you have on your line the more room for failure and I think i experienced this first hand.  

[BobP]

I've never had an Alberto knot break.  Since this one unraveled, I don't see how micro guides had anything to do with it and certainly don't want to tie a knot with a long tag end that will be passing through rod guides.  The whole point of this is to have a slim but strong knot that you can fish without worrying about it snagging in the rod.  From the evidence described, I still think the knot was not tied correctly.  It's all too easy to end the knot by passing it through the loop in the wrong direction and impossible to see your mistake until it unravels while fishing.  That notwithstanding, if the FG knot is even slimmer and just as strong, I'll be tying that one next.

[Further North]

That notwithstanding, if the FG knot is even slimmer and just as strong, I'll be tying that one next.

So far (about 2 months into using the FG knot) I would say that it is at least as strong as the Alberto...and slimmer without question.

 

I've used it on bass (30# - 50# braid to 10# - 17# fluro) and pike/musky (50# - 65# braid to 80# fluoro or 30# - 50# tieable stainless leader material like Surflon or Tyger Wire).

 

It's a bit more of a chore to tie...but it goes through guides better than an Alberto and hold on tight.

[OkobojiEagle]

You guys arguing about which knot tied with 50# rope will hold up to a 5# bass just kill me...

 

 

oe

[SirSnookalot]

You guys arguing about which knot tied with 50# rope will hold up to a 5# bass just kill me...

 

 

oe

I get a kick out of it too.

 

I stated early in this thread my knot success was around 98% in SW and better in fresh, I'm not complaining.  I'm not perfect and quite capable of being hasty resulting in a faulty knot.  

 

Not pitting 1 knot against another, the Alberto and Albright get tighter with more pressure like the Chinese fingercuff.  One can make an argument for a thinner knot, the Albright is thin enough for me.  The times when my knots unravel is usually during a cast and not with a fish on.  

I fish spinning, my lines and leaders for the most part are on the light side.  A 5# bass is not my everyday bass, most are much smaller.  I just don't see the pressure being put on lines and knots from sub 5# fish.  

I do target fish that are bigger that are considerably bigger than 5#, now I'm using 15 or 20# braid with 20 or 30# leader.  These fish are capable of making some significant runs, as long as the fish is running and pulling line the knots will hold just fine.  I don't need the strongest knot there is I just need to tie it right.

[smalljaw67]

I get a kick out of it too.

 

I stated early in this thread my knot success was around 98% in SW and better in fresh, I'm not complaining.  I'm not perfect and quite capable of being hasty resulting in a faulty knot.  

 

Not pitting 1 knot against another, the Alberto and Albright get tighter with more pressure like the Chinese fingercuff.  One can make an argument for a thinner knot, the Albright is thin enough for me.  The times when my knots unravel is usually during a cast and not with a fish on.  

I fish spinning, my lines and leaders for the most part are on the light side.  A 5# bass is not my everyday bass, most are much smaller.  I just don't see the pressure being put on lines and knots from sub 5# fish.  

I do target fish that are bigger that are considerably bigger than 5#, now I'm using 15 or 20# braid with 20 or 30# leader.  These fish are capable of making some significant runs, as long as the fish is running and pulling line the knots will hold just fine.  I don't need the strongest knot there is I just need to tie it right.

 

My question is why are a lot of you guys using heavier leaders than the main line?  I started using braid when it came out, Spider Wire and Berkley Ultra Max, and after a while it was suggested that you need to use a leader, and not because of fish being line shy, but because guys were getting hung up deep and weren't able to break off. I remember all the magazine articles about using a piece of broom handle to wrap the line around so you can pull it, and the first lure retrievers came from this too. Then, the next thing was using a mono leader, you use 25# braid and a 12# to 15# mono leader and it would help with being able to break off deep snags and it was less visible to the fish, then we got fluorocarbon for leader material at first before we got full spools. My point is that I was always told that you used a line that was close in diameter to the braid and always use a lower pound test so if you break off, you break off on the leader somewhere, higher pound test leader material puts an ever greater difference in line diameters making knots even more susceptible to failure. I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't use leaders anymore and I only use braid for heavy flipping and frogs so I'm not aware of trends but seeing how many use heavier leader than mainline makes me wonder when the philosophy changed, that is al. 

[EmersonFish]

My question is why are a lot of you guys using heavier leaders than the main line?  I started using braid when it came out, Spider Wire and Berkley Ultra Max, and after a while it was suggested that you need to use a leader, and not because of fish being line shy, but because guys were getting hung up deep and weren't able to break off. I remember all the magazine articles about using a piece of broom handle to wrap the line around so you can pull it, and the first lure retrievers came from this too. Then, the next thing was using a mono leader, you use 25# braid and a 12# to 15# mono leader and it would help with being able to break off deep snags and it was less visible to the fish, then we got fluorocarbon for leader material at first before we got full spools. My point is that I was always told that you used a line that was close in diameter to the braid and always use a lower pound test so if you break off, you break off on the leader somewhere, higher pound test leader material puts an ever greater difference in line diameters making knots even more susceptible to failure. I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't use leaders anymore and I only use braid for heavy flipping and frogs so I'm not aware of trends but seeing how many use heavier leader than mainline makes me wonder when the philosophy changed, that is al.

There are a number of reasons to use leaders. Easier to break off is one, but whether some believe it or not, line visibility is another. Wanting a more abrasion resistant line down at the business end is another reason. Sometimes you want to use lines with different properties as a leader, as in using a mono leader because the line doesn't sink as fast. I suppose there may be occasions where one would determine a heavier leader is necessary if you want to use a leader and maintain a high break strength.

I also believe that sometimes things get lost in the translation, when people refer to braid by its diameter and mono/flouro by its break strength interchangeably.

I personally never use a heavier leader than mainline, and try to keep the diameters relatively similar, although there is more wiggle room there than some people seem to think, if you take your time and tie a good knot.

[OkobojiEagle]

Walking top water baits I sometimes have a 10lb PE mainline with a 14lb nylon leader or if I want to slow the drop speed of a jighead/plastic I'll use a 14lb nylon leader with 6lb - 10lb PE mainline.  I'll occasionally do the larger nylon leader thing to keep a jerkbait or crankbait riding higher in the water column.

 

 

oe

[smalljaw67]

There are a number of reasons to use leaders. Easier to break off is one, but whether some believe it or not, line visibility is another. Wanting a more abrasion resistant line down at the business end is another reason. Sometimes you want to use lines with different properties as a leader, as in using a mono leader because the line doesn't sink as fast. I suppose there may be occasions where one would determine a heavier leader is necessary if you want to use a leader and maintain a high break strength.

I also believe that sometimes things get lost in the translation, when people refer to braid by its diameter and mono/flouro by its break strength interchangeably.

I personally never use a heavier leader than mainline, and try to keep the diameters relatively similar, although there is more wiggle room there than some people seem to think, if you take your time and tie a good knot.

 

You missed the entire point I was making, I understand the use of leaders, what I'm having trouble with is the leader size being heavier than the main line. Everything I've read and watched always had the leader being lighter than the main line braid, it made the diameters closer together which made for better knot performance and deep snags were easier to break off. My question, to make it simple, is why use a heavier fluorocarbon leader than the main line braid?  When did the trend of using 15lb braid with a 20lb leader begin?

[SirSnookalot]

Heavier or stronger?  15# braid is lighter than a 20# leader but every bit as strong if not stronger.  1 reason I use a heavier leader is when bank fishing, it's much easier to drag, flip or pick up a heavy fish with a stronger leader.  That applies to saltwater as well.   Landing a fish from a boat IMO is easier, I'm pulling fish out of cover not into thicker cover and ground brush.  I have the luxury of running the fish down with the boat, or approaching where the fish is wrapped around something, can't do that from the bank, I probably have a net with me on the boat.  I unlodge some of my snags by snapping the bow, I'm going to have less lure break offs with a stronger leader.  With age knots become more difficult to tie with a thinner leader.

[masterbass]

You missed the entire point I was making, I understand the use of leaders, what I'm having trouble with is the leader size being heavier than the main line. Everything I've read and watched always had the leader being lighter than the main line braid, it made the diameters closer together which made for better knot performance and deep snags were easier to break off. My question, to make it simple, is why use a heavier fluorocarbon leader than the main line braid?  When did the trend of using 15lb braid with a 20lb leader begin?

I agree with you.  It seems counter-intuitive for bass.  

[EmersonFish]

You missed the entire point I was making, I understand the use of leaders, what I'm having trouble with is the leader size being heavier than the main line. Everything I've read and watched always had the leader being lighter than the main line braid, it made the diameters closer together which made for better knot performance and deep snags were easier to break off. My question, to make it simple, is why use a heavier fluorocarbon leader than the main line braid?  When did the trend of using 15lb braid with a 20lb leader begin?

I'm not sure it's a "trend." Certain people do it for certain reasons. I alluded to some of them in my original response, but I guess I didn't "make it simple" enough. It's not just about the numbers on the packaging, it's about the properties of the line, how they impact presentation, or how they handle the conditions you are fishing.

[Further North]

You guys arguing about which knot tied with 50# rope will hold up to a 5# bass just kill me...

 

 

oe

It might be a wee bit more complex that that if the 5# bass wraps the line around a dock support, a sunken log, or runs it across a rock pile...also...it might be worth figuring out what stresses are put on a line during a hook-set (hint: it's more than the fish weighs...way more...).

 

I use braid that is roughly the same diameter as the reel is designed for...for a coupla reasons:

 

1. It'd be stupid expensive to put 10# braid on a reel designed for 12# mono...
2. Given that the line diameter is the same, why not get the extra strength?  I don't loose lures with "50# rope"...the hook will bend before the line will break...

[Further North]

You missed the entire point I was making, I understand the use of leaders, what I'm having trouble with is the leader size being heavier than the main line. Everything I've read and watched always had the leader being lighter than the main line braid, it made the diameters closer together which made for better knot performance and deep snags were easier to break off. My question, to make it simple, is why use a heavier fluorocarbon leader than the main line braid?  When did the trend of using 15lb braid with a 20lb leader begin?

...not sure on bass (I only use a leader for finesse presentations in clear water for bass...and it's alway diameter based, not  break strength based...and therefore much less that the braid the leader is tied to)...but on toothy fish it's for resistance to line abrasion.  When you tie into a 36" - 48" or bigger pike pike or musky, the teeth and gill rakers can slice a thin line like it's not even there...

 

I either use tieable stainless, or 80# - 100# fluoro for those applications...

 

There's not much that's more disconcerting than hooking into a 25# - 30# musky and having it break the line before you can get the lure out of it's mouth...first...the lure cost a bunch of $$$...second and much more important...that lure stuck in the fish's face can kill it...and there's no toothy fish angler worth his tackle that wants that to happen to a fish that's a couple of decades old...

[EvanT123]

I'm dizzy. Was it the knot? Was it the diameter of the lines? Higher test? Lower test?

I don't think we will ever know.

[junyer357]

One more thing to consider on using heavier weight floro leader is why it happens with me alot. My floro leader supply is nothing but end of new spools where i had some line left after filling rod. Braid will last me a long time if im using leaders but i go through floro pretty regular. On my spinning gear 10 or 15 baid is normal and floro i use is 12 or 17 mostly.

On the origional post i have not personally had a problem with a knot failure unless i tied it improperly and it shows quick. I also have not had one last several days like you mention either. Floro for me is used more for durability and resistance to cutting over line visibilty ksince i fish more stained water. Being as such i check it constantly for frays knicks and such and end up retying a new leader more often.

[smalljaw67]

One more thing to consider on using heavier weight floro leader is why it happens with me alot. My floro leader supply is nothing but end of new spools where i had some line left after filling rod. Braid will last me a long time if im using leaders but i go through floro pretty regular. On my spinning gear 10 or 15 baid is normal and floro i use is 12 or 17 mostly.

On the origional post i have not personally had a problem with a knot failure unless i tied it improperly and it shows quick. I also have not had one last several days like you mention either. Floro for me is used more for durability and resistance to cutting over line visibilty ksince i fish more stained water. Being as such i check it constantly for frays knicks and such and end up retying a new leader more often.

 

You are a perfect example of what I'm talking about, when I was using leaders I used a blood knot and over time there were new ones being developed and used. The only constant was that you when by leader strength and matched it with an appropriate diameter braid and while it may not be an exact match you would still want it in the ball park. So if I was fishing a shaky head, I'd use a 8lb leader and if I used say, Suffix 832, 30# braid would be a match for diameter but it would be overkill so I may go with 20#, not exact but close enough to make my knot good and tight with less chance for slippage and now I am beginning to understand why guys want flipping hooks for finesse presentations, way too much overkill for fun fishing and even for tournaments it seems a bit drastic but that is how a lot of anglers are going now.

[JewIII]

Just to help in this topic. 

One post says that the tag of the mono hit the guides. If that is the case then the knot is backwards. Larger line is always "in the loop", smaller line is tied.

Most likely the reason for the failure.