Birdshot For Home Defense??????

[Bluebasser86]

alwayshungry, welcome to the site and that's a heck of a first post. You make some valid points about the pure stopping power of birdshot. Your examples seem like they would best apply to what we call a very motivated attacker, someone with no other motive than to cause you or someone else severe bodily harm or death. In those cases we'll often have drugs, alcohol, mental illness, or a combination involved. In those situations you're correct that you have to stop the bodies ability to function completely to stop the threat as a motivated attacker will not stop until they're unable to continue on or until they've completed their goal. 

Your more typical home invader that is looking to burglarize a dwelling most likely isn't going to continue on with an attempted attack after just the sight or sound of a shotgun, let alone being ripped open by a shotgun blast.

I like the shotgun for home defense because it doesn't pass through walls like a handgun or rifle round will. Most of your deadly encounters inside a home are going to be at extremely close distances, less than 10' in most cases. Even at that distance, under the mountain of stress and emotions that a person is going through, it's amazingly easy for the average person to miss an entire human being when firing a single projectile. A shotgun's spread will be very small at that distance, but still a slightly larger area and pellets that miss their intended target will stop in furniture or the wall. I would encourage someone who chooses to use a handgun for home to defense to be extremely proficient with it and be mentally aware of where anyone else in the house will be at all times. I'd rather see someone using something I'd consider overkill than nothing at all though. Like the saying goes "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away". 

My shotgun at home has staggered rounds, along with the .40 with several loaded mags on my side of the bed and .380 on my wife's side, so I see the value in having options  

[retiredbosn]

profiency with your weapon (as well as familiarity with it), training, practice, and steely nerves/the ability to do what needs to be done with shaky hands, racing heart, and heavy breathing inherent to having to kill another human being are what will ultimately determine the outcome of your encounter with a baddy…regardless of your firearm

However, unless you have been in combat or have actually experienced shooting at someone/someone shooting at you, having the correct firearm and ammo will help tip the scales in your favor

ANY "gun guy" who has educated himself about all firearm types (handgun, shotgun, rifle), ammo types, along with the ballistic sciences behind why each ammo does what in each firearm WHEN IT IS USED AGAINST HUMANS/ANIMALS/A PROPER REPRESENTATION OF SUCH, would never use birdshot to save theirs and their families lives

there is tremendous responsibility inherent in being a gun owner - especially if you intend to use it to save yours or someone else's life - it goes way beyond keeping it out of your kids hands or the folks living with you

Yes, even if you can apply my first paragraph to yourself, there is always a possibility of a stray round finding it's way to the wrong target - it's the law of probability - but the more you prepare for the moment, the lower the probability that your bullet will cause unintended damage

it's pretty simple actually…you do not fire your weapon unless you are supremely confident that a missed shot will not end up speeding towards your child's bedroom or through your front windows and across the street

Again, I'm not trying to say that well trained, experienced shooters do not make mistakes/miss their target - but just like driving defensively, using your safety indicators, not getting distracted, avoiding drugs/alcohol, and applying intelligence and common sense while driving, it is of utmost importance to those inside and outside of your vehicle that you do everything in your power to drive safely - can you still have an unknown force/situation force you to have an accident? - of course - everyone knows there is great risk to driving but it's ok to take that risk as the ends justify the means

if you have a firearm and believe you have it in you to fire it at another human in self defense, then, if educated, you know very well that if you shoot, you shoot until you stop the threat - also, you had better know the laws in your area regarding using deadly force

for the educated gun guy, shots fired in self defense are aimed at the center of mass (upper torso to belly button) - you should NEVER EVER shoot to wound or try to shoot the perp in the knee or make a video game headshot - aiming at these targets will seriously increase your chances of missing, will most likely get you killed for your efforts

your goal should be to put as many rounds as possible into the center of mass until your baddy no longer presents a threat - Google the FBI studies on typical self defense distances - what they discovered was that, in most cases, the majority of agents/police/etc can JUST draw their weapons and get off enough rounds to stop an approaching attacker from reaching them if the baddy is ~ 7 yards/21 feet away when he starts towards them - on average, the time needed to cover the 21ft distance was about 3 seconds, give or take

the people on here who think a watermelon's or plywood's reaction to birdshot are indicative of how it will work on a human with elastic skin, layers of clothing, viscous body fluids, thick muscles, and bones are delusional and scarily uninformed

I've killed just about every game bird on earth with my 12 gauge loaded with birdshot and not one of them were knocked off course - in my youth, I've fired my 12 gauge at dead birds that were too shot up to harvest that were laying on hard dirt - the softness of the little birds body EASILY absorbed the energy of the full load and barely rolling 1/2 way over (from on their back to on their tummy ) - I've had to fire 3 or more rounds of birdshot at 15 yards to stop a South Texas jackrabbit on several occasions....with a tight choke in the barrel

those here that think a shotgun with ANY load will make a "fist sized hole" in a human target or who speak of ANY round "knocking down" a human target are the type of gun owners who make me very nervous (as I'm vigilant in doing what I can to protect theirs and my rights to bear arms) - they could also benefit greatly by acquiring even an elementary grasp of basic, fundamental physics

if launching a 165 grain projectile almost instantly from 0 - 900 ft/sec (640mph) doesn't knock the shooter down, what makes you think, even if the projectile could slam it's energy into their whole body at once, that the guy on the receiving end is going to be "knocked down"

back to your goal of stopping the threat - in the majority of situations, given the laws regarding justified use of deadly force and the proper action being defined as delivering your shots to the part of the body that CAN cause the damage needed to disrupt enough bodily functions to stop a motivated attacker who will be stabbing you in the throat within seconds of your encounter, you should be shooting with the intent to kill your attacker ASAP

a birdshot flesh wound, while spectacular to behold, WILL NOT stop the threat within your 2-3 second timeframe - and in the vast majority of cases, will not stop the threat at all - throw fear, adrenaline, anger, bad intentions, motivation, self preservation instinct, and the desire to kill you before you kill him, and you will most assuredly wish, in short order, that you and your loved ones had a proper, penetrating type of ammo on hand on the day you failed to make use of your luck in being able to get off any shots

the ONLY WAY to effectively and reliably stop the threat is to disrupt the bodily functions needed for someone to be a threat to you - heavy internal bleeding/hemorrhaging, damage to vital organs/spinal cord, broken/shattered bones, etc. - in order for this to happen, you HAVE to have penetration - this means your projectile must go in the body, travel 6"-15", hitting squishy stuff and smashing bones as it's moving inside the target, and preferably, dumping all of it's energy in the target and creating a wound channel, disrupting other vitals in its vicinity

to those who understand ballistics and the science behind why certain types of ammo do what they do, it is universally understood that birdshot, no matter the shell size/length or the gauge of the shotgun or amount of powder propelling it or the range to the target, will not penetrate enough to disrupt vitals and cause the subsequent internal damage necessary to achieve the desired effects

In a relatively slow moving handgun round or buckshot out of a shotgun, the damage is caused by the projectile deforming and flattening as it penetrates - soft lead buckshot will deform and move in different directions once inside the body, tearing your baddy' insides up and rendering him physically unable to keep trying to kill you - a hollow point handgun round almost doubles it's diameter and stops suddenly in the body, dumping it's energy and avoiding over penetration/keeping the bullet from simply poking a 9mm hole in your baddy/traveling farther than needed, thus protecting innocent people

a rifle round traveling 2-3 times faster than a shotgun round or handgun round, practically explodes into to sharp pieces of lead and copper and very rapidly changes direction/slams it's energy into the body - heavier rounds and purpose built bullets will, most times, pass through a human or an animal - but lighter rounds like a 55-70grain bullet from the common 5.56/.223 shot out of most ar-15's will rarely leave the body when center of mass is struck - because of over penetration, most large rifles are not considered to be a good choice for self defense, although a properly trained and equipped person can certainly employ a rifle in self defense with devastating effect

for those watching some numbskull on YouTube shooting birdshot at plywood thinking that it equals what birdshot will do in the human body, please check your sources - I can fire magnum loads with 240grain Speer golddot hollow points out of my .44magnum at 1400fps at plywood all day and not one round will do anything more than poke a small hole in it - same goes for my 30.06 with 165grain lead with copper jacketed hollow point rounds at 3000fps

However, I'll fire either gun at a small South Texas whitetail and they'll both "stop the threat" instantly when I hit him center of mass - same with buckshot - however, with birdshot, he'll receive a non-life threatening skin wound and simply run off

Find a reliable source of factual and scientific information, stop buying into lame videos made by people who are both unprofessional and unscientific in their testing, Wiki ballistics, research and view actual gunshot wounds, and question 99% of the nonsense that Hollywood puts in movies to sell tickets, and then you can speak intelligently on the subject and not damage the efforts of those of us who spend and fight to preserve your rights to own that gun

alwayshungry

Finally, someone who has at least an understanding of ballistics. Welcome to the board

[retiredbosn]

Analyze it however you want, a ounce (or more) of #6 bird shot at close range is terrifying and I would have no problem using it as a home defense round.

Posts like this really boggle the mind. I volunteer to be shot with bird shot wearing only a leather jacket at 10 feet. The pellets wouldn't penetrate the leather.

[A-Jay]

Posts like this really boggle the mind. I volunteer to be shot with bird shot wearing only a leather jacket at 10 feet. The pellets wouldn't penetrate the leather.

 

This sounds like one of those alcohol induced dares . . . . .  

 

"OK - You shoot me with your bird shot and then I'll shoot you with this Slug, and we'll see what happens.

Here,  I'll hold your beer  . . . . ." 

 

 

A-Jay

[K_Mac]

At 10 feet number 6 shot is absolutely going to leave a mark! It may not stop a determined attacker though.

As has already been said, without adequate penetration there is little chance of incapacitating an attacker. Incapacitation is achieved by loss of blood, or catstrophic damage to the skeletal system or the central nervous system. That is the only guaranteed way of stopping a committed bad guy. There are volumes of research studies done by military, law enforcement, academics, and curious enthusiasts worldwide to support this. The tests have been done and many years of physical evidence all prove this central truth.

Adequate penetration cannot reliably be achieved with birdshot. That is a fact. What you believe, and what you load in your shotgun is up to you.

[Smokinal]

 I volunteer to be shot with bird shot wearing only a leather jacket at 10 feet.

Will you leave me your new Nitro?

[SHaugh]

Skip to 2:30   to find the answer to your questions about the Nitro:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc

[Smokinal]

Skip to 2:30   to find the answer to your questions about the Nitro:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc

Should I ask him to leave the electronics on it for me?

[F14A-B]

Any bullets loosed in a public or private enviroment has potential to injure/kill another person, or cause property damage. Data suggest this is not the case.However, in Texas, I recently read where you (the shooter) are liable for any damage to property or a human being as a result of a defensive shooting. Lawyer up fellas.. You can be exactly by the book & it's still going to diminish your bank account. Locate a pro gun law office now, not all lawyers believe in the 2nd ammendment..factor in the stand your ground law as well, recently Indiana changed this to 8 feet. That's right, 8 feet..

[tipptruck1]

Any bullets loosed in a public or private enviroment has potential to injure/kill another person, or cause property damage. Data suggest this is not the case.However, in Texas, I recently read where you (the shooter) are liable for any damage to property or a human being as a result of a defensive shooting. Lawyer up fellas.. You can be exactly by the book & it's still going to diminish your bank account. Locate a pro gun law office now, not all lawyers believe in the 2nd ammendment..factor in the stand your ground law as well, recently Indiana changed this to 8 feet. That's right, 8 feet..

That is whats so nice about the castle law here. I can shoot and ask questions later. According to the law here. If you enter any thing that is not yours. The owner can shoot you. With out begin labile for any damages to the intruder.  

[retiredbosn]

Skip to 2:30   to find the answer to your questions about the Nitro:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc

 

 

I like that video, but I hope you know that the load referenced was not what the pork was shot with.  Go forward to about 230 in the video and look carefully at the meat.  You'll find shot interlaced throughout the opening, trouble is the pellets are bb sized.  8 shot is very small, bb shot is just that about the size of a bb.  It appears that the videographer utilized a duplex load, my bet is containing 000 buckshot and either 1 or BB size pellets.  It is most definitely not 8 shot.  I actually watched the entire video, what I found interesting is that the 3 inch magnum containing size 4 shot did LESS, damage than did the low velocity 8 shot!!!!  Impossible.  The ballistic gelatin part is irrelevant, you have know way of knowing if the gelatin was mixed properly, set properly or warmed prior to be shot.  What was interesting though is that on the ballistics gelatin test the 4 shot magnum penetrated farther and showed more damage. How do you explain the differences? Especially if the stated loads were accurate. 

 

Finally both Remington and Federal made home defense rounds for the shotgun, they were duplex loads, and the smallest shot utilized were bb.  Remington took their's off the market, because even BB birdshot was inadequate for home defense.  FBI statistics clearly prove that #4 buckshot is the smallest you can go with a shotgun shell and still provide enough stopping power to incapacitate a bad guy.

 

 

 

Will you leave me your new Nitro?

 

Sure, as there would be no harm inflicted I'll leave ya my house, and truck too, lol.

 

 

Should I ask him to leave the electronics on it for me?

  Of course

[KyAngler_1120]

There are a couple boxes of old clothes that were left in our attic when the previous owner of our home passed away. There are some heavy winter coats and things like that and I think I will do some penetration test with them since they are going to the be dumped anyways. 

 

However I will set them up on a mount...I will not be wearing them lol

[rboat]

So what would be the ideal shot size for home defense. Something that will kill the bad guy, but not go through a wall and harm family?

#3 shot or #4 shot or something else?

[F14A-B]

My theory is Stop the bad guy, first & formost..

A .357 Sig will penetrate walls increasing danger.

I would think most buckshot/birdshot will be greatly reduced in energy as it penetrates barriers. ( If it passes thru at all ) I've never shot one in my house though.. Most any projectile fired inside has potential to penetrate barriers. However you MUST stop the threat to your family.

( first & foremost ) my shotgun is often loaded w 00 buck, 4 shot copper coated max dram or maybe a slug ( not likely ) the 4 shot is what I would use hunting 30 lb eastern turkey.

[RoLo]

At close range, both buckshot and birdshot is going to decommission any intruder, murder isn't necessary.

Gunmen on TV unload their weapons like 8-year old kids playing war, but in the real world,

you fire one load at a time then observe the result after each round (you have the upper hand).

 

Most any wall will absorb the energy from a shotshell, and any pellets that make it thru the wall

will have very little left on them (except for paper-thin trailer walls). 

 

Roger

[rboat]

At close range, both buckshot and birdshot is going to decommission any intruder, murder isn't necessary.

Gunmen on TV unload their weapons like 8-year old kids playing war, but in the real world,

you fire one load at a time then observe the result after each round (you have the upper hand).

 

Most any wall will absorb the energy from a shotshell, and any pellets that make it thru the wall

will have very little left on them (except for paper-thin trailer walls). 

 

Roger

Roger, It is sad, but with our jacked up judicial system, you must shoot to kill. otherwise the intruder will come back and sue you in court and probably win, even though he committed the crime and you were just trying to protect your property and your family. It happens all the time.

[RoLo]

Roger, It is sad, but with our jacked up judicial system, you must shoot to kill. otherwise the intruder will come back and sue you in court and probably win, even though he committed the crime and you were just trying to protect your property and your family. It happens all the time.

 

You make a valid point, and I have to agree.

 

I can remember when the owner of a sport shop told me:  "Make sure he's inside & dead!".

As I recall, that was in the 70s (Herman Treptows, Milltown, NJ), so that sick ideology has been around a long time.

 

Roger

[Fun4Me]

Any attorney worth his weight will advise against the phrase "shoot to kill" being used under any courtroom circumstance. .   

[A-Jay]

Any attorney worth his weight will advise against the phrase "shoot to kill" being used under any courtroom circumstance. .   

 

Fair enough.

 

So I'll say I shoot to do this.

 

Results may vary - I guess.

 

A-Jay

 

[Fun4Me]

For me personally, the correct phrase is "shoot to stop the threat". Death may, or may not be a byproduct of that. 

 

 

 

 

My shotgun is currently loaded with 12 pellet 0BK

[Josh Smith]

Birdshot is the dumbest thing you can use for self-defense.

 

Best to use #4 buck and up from a shotgun, and handguns need solid projectiles with hollow points or truncated noses.

 

Josh

[gardnerjigman]

Birdshot is the dumbest thing you can use for self-defense.

 

Best to use #4 buck and up from a shotgun, and handguns need solid projectiles with hollow points or truncated noses.

 

Josh

 

I wouldn't say it's the dumbest thing. You could use a bat, knife... nothing at all. Birdshot will do the trick. I suppose if your idea of home defense is pull the trigger then access the situation it may be hazardous to you. My wife and I aren't in that line of thinking. The gun will be emptied and if need be the gun will then be used as a billy club. Period. 

[Josh Smith]

Birdshot is effective at distances at which it still acts as a solid mass; ie, a few feet, or as a candle catridge, and from a shotgun only.

Hanguns with solid projectiles have enough trouble stopping threats. I would not want to handicap myself further by using pellets the size of sand.

Josh

[gardnerjigman]

Have you google imaged birdshot wounds? Little more damage than sand. I also don't know of many locations in a home where your target is going to be more than 10 yards away via hallway, stairway, whatever it may be. It may not kill the target, but it's dang sure gonna make them step back and reconsider at the very least. 

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I will say that if someone were to break into my house, I will not be grabbing the home defense shotgun, it will be my 45 with staggered loads. However, If I'm not home and something happens, I feel much more confident in my wife picking up the shotgun that will pattern out and almost guaranteed to hit it's target versus her frantically emptying a clip and not even touching the person... no thanks. 

[Fun4Me]

If there was one perfect round, we'd all be using it. Different scenarios call for different ammunition.

 

gardnerjigman:

 

I see you stagger your rounds in the 45, do you also do that in the shotty? I've been contemplating doing that and I can see the value in birdshot in that type of mag load.