Birdshot For Home Defense??????

[retiredbosn]

Was reading another thread and a couple of people were reporting that they used birdshot, number 6 actually, as their home defense ammo. My question is why? I once witnessed a man getting shot at PBR (point blank range) by a ,38 special loaded with rat shot, number 6 shot, in the chest at a bar.  In that incident all that happened was the guy who was shot got very angry and beat the living crap out of the guy who shot him. I have shot hundreds of ringneck pheasants, my first excursion I tried using 6 shot, not too smart on my behalf as most of the birds got away. I had to use either 4 or 5 shot to kill them cleanly. Remember when Dick Cheney shot a hunting buddy while quail hunting?  Didn't kill him, I think the range there was close to 30 yards though.  6 shot kinetic energy at PBR is something like 6ft-lbs for each pellet, granted a 12 gauge holds something like 500 of them, but the pellets would not possess the energy required to penetrate skin, bone, etc. to reach vital organs. Additionally birdshot is notoriously soft, there isn't enough antimony in the shot to sufficiently harden it to penetrate human bone. What will happen is the shot will flatten upon impact and not adequately penetrate, the shock from the pellets may be enough to at least knock them out or down.  I understand the worry of shooting through a wall using slugs and MAYBE an interior wall using buckshot. But I wonder about the efficiency of birdshot to stop a criminal in their tracks, the last thing I would want to do is merely wound the person.  You MAY stop the robbery, but given the fact that they will sue and probably win it's not worth the risk. I'm not trying to start a war on here, but am curious as to why anyone would choose this route.  Please enlighten me, because it seems to me that a more robust round capable of stopping the bad guy out weighs the negatives.  Try using either magnum goose or turkey loads, they will not penetrate the exterior walls and probably won't carry enough energy after passing through and interior wall to injure anyone. BTW here is a couple of pics of the guy Cheney shot, didn't even put out an eye, luckily for the person being shot. The first one is shortly after the accident, the second one after the bruising was more pronounced.

[retiredbosn]

For the curious

 

Kinetic energy is defined as (mass multiplied by velocity) squared/2.  6 shot lead pellets in grams weigh approximately .12910. Using standard loads the velocity of the shot string when it leaves the barrel is 1200ft/sec.  So this equates to 6.4ft/lbs of kinetic energy per pellet. Compared to each pellet of 00 buckshot having 172ft-lbs, a .38 special averages between 230-250ft-lbs, a .357 magnum between 540-600ft-lbs

[retiredbosn]

no post, messed up

[Smokinal]

Most home invasion shots are within 10 yds. Put up a piece of 3/4 plywood, shoot it with #6 12ga and look at the hole. The intruder wouldn't be mad long.

[F14A-B]

2 3/4 inch magnum 12 gauge 6,4 0, 00,000 buckshot.. Your attacker gets carried to the morgue.. A .38 doesn't have the potential w 6 shot to really do more than kill a bird, snake or maybe a cat.

[SHaugh]

Do a google image search on shotgun wound... if you have a strong stomach....  nothing else comes close to a shotgun for sheer destruction.  Birdshot also has the advantage of losing it's energy fast.. less likely to kill people in other rooms etc..

[Bluebasser86]

The other issue you have with larger shot, like buckshot, it's going to blow through walls as well. Unlike a handgun where you only have a single projectile, you have several and can't control where every one is going to go. I've seen the tragic end results of someone who tried to defend their home only to find out they'd shot a loved one or family pet in another room as well as the intruder. Birdshot hits a wall and it stops. For the pure purpose of home defense inside the home, a shotgun with birdshot is one of your best options. The round you're talking about being shot from a pistol is for very small animals at very close range. 

[Jrob78]

 A .38 doesn't have the potential w 6 shot to really do more than kill a bird, snake or maybe a cat.

Huh??

[F14A-B]

As per bosin, I once witnessed a man getting shot at PBR (point blank range) by a ,38 special loaded with rat shot, number 6 shot, in the chest at a bar. In that incident all that happened was the guy who was shot got very angry and beat the living crap out of the guy who shot him.

As per me, I don't believe that .38 with # 6 shot is a very capable round for defensive purposes for humans, mean dogs, etc.. Maybe glaser, but not for me.. I pack .357 anyway.. But I shoot 12 gauge 2 3/4 inch magnums a whole bunch.. The round ( .38 w 6 shot ) could penetrate a eyeball then right into the brain & create death. That's my opinion on the round, anyhow, yours might be different.. That's ok by me. I do believe it's a poor choice w all the ammo avail. for self defense. The goal, for me, if I have to defend my life or my family's life is to hit with as much power as quickly as possible to STOP the attacker ( hopefully ) we will be accountable for however many shots we may have to make, my goal is one shot to stop.. That's the goal, why play w sub standard loads? At any rate that's my philosophy, others may disagree and I'm fine with that..

[F14A-B]

Huh??

See my post above, I forgot to quote you, lol

[retiredbosn]

Please indulge me the permission to play Devil's advocate on this one, of all the studies of ballistics: shotgun ballistics are the hardest to nail down, there are many, many factors in this but for the sake of brevity I'll not go into all of them here. As you all know the sectional density and to a lesser degree the ballistic coefficient determines how far a round will penetrate at PBR or any distance to farther the distance the more ballistic coefficient comes into play. Shotgun pellets are not uniform in size, sectional density or ballistic coefficient: pellets are formed when molten lead is dropped from a shot tower, as the lead falls an cools the formation of pellets are a natural phenomena: there aren't any forms involved. When the pellets drop they are then sorted by size and loaded into the shells. Hardness of the pellet is determined by the amount of antimony that is added to lead, pellets sized 6 and smaller have little antimony added so the soft lead deforms easily, and doesn't penetrate well.

Secondly ballistic performance of shotshells on plywood, drywall and other similarly brittle materials have little correlation to how the shot will perform on the human body. The human body is a soft target, which sounds like the performance of the shot would be more devastating not less, but in fact it is far less.

There are three components to penetration in soft targets: Strength, Viscosity, and density of the target. Ed Lowry explained that soft target have all three qualities. Robins' wood had strength as the primary factor, a constant unrelated to velocity. Viscosity, whether tar, grease, honey, is proportional to the velocity. Density, as in water, cork, dust, is proportional to the square of the velocity, as explained by Ed Lowry. (quote from shotgunning ballistics article found here http://www.chuckhawks.com/pellet_penetration.htm) (Ed Lowry was known as the "Dean of Shotgunning Ballistics)

In other words whatever you shoot a human target with must contain enough sectional density, velocity and energy to overcome the elasticity of skin, density of muscle and bone, and finally the viscosity of blood; before reaching vital organs. Probably the most striking evidence of this is the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt. His handwritten speech and heavily muscled pectorals stopped the .38 caliber bullet fired from a Colt revolver at 10 feet. He gave a 90 minute speech before seeking medical attention.

Here is another ballistics study on the efficacy of small shot shotshells http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/ Here is one of the quotes that I feel is pertinent to this discussion

Birdshot as a Defense Load

I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

Then there are these real world reports from the same article:

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want… to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

“I saw a gunshot victim, about 5′ 10″ and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said ‘buckshot’ wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, ‘use birdshot for little birds.’”

Also, here is another article utilizing ballistics gelatin as the target, however carefully note the conditions the author tells the reader about. Additionally note that there is no bone placed in the gelatin and the actual shot would penetrate even less in real world conditions. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

Finally the ugly truth about shooting a shotgun at close range, pattern size. Many people mistakenly think that they have a better chance of hitting the

target using a shotgun, however at ranges of 12 feet and less the shot shell pattern will only be approximately 2-3 inches wide at 12 feet and much much less at 3 feet, utilizing an open bore choke, i.e. no choke. Unless you modify the muzzle of the shotgun to spread the load immediately upon the shot exiting the barrel, a duckbill choke does this nicely.

What gun and ammunition people use as their home defense is 100% a personal choice, and I'm not trying to change your opinion or tell you your opinion is wrong. Rather it is to point out that there is allot of misinformation being passed off as truth, not nefariously but from a lack of understanding terminal ballistics. Shooting a hole in plywood doesn't equate to shooting a hole in a bad guy.

As this video from youtube would have you believe

[Jrob78]

As per bosin, I once witnessed a man getting shot at PBR (point blank range) by a ,38 special loaded with rat shot, number 6 shot, in the chest at a bar. In that incident all that happened was the guy who was shot got very angry and beat the living crap out of the guy who shot him.

As per me, I don't believe that .38 with # 6 shot is a very capable round for defensive purposes for humans, mean dogs, etc.. Maybe glaser, but not for me.. I pack .357 anyway.. But I shoot 12 gauge 2 3/4 inch magnums a whole bunch.. The round ( .38 w 6 shot ) could penetrate a eyeball then right into the brain & create death. That's my opinion on the round, anyhow, yours might be different.. That's ok by me. I do believe it's a poor choice w all the ammo avail. for self defense. The goal, for me, if I have to defend my life or my family's life is to hit with as much power as quickly as possible to STOP the attacker ( hopefully ) we will be accountable for however many shots we may have to make, my goal is one shot to stop.. That's the goal, why play w sub standard loads? At any rate that's my philosophy, others may disagree and I'm fine with that..

Ok, my mistake.  You're talking a .38 loaded with rat shot.  I missed that in your initial post.  Sorry about that, carry on.  

 

For the record, I agree with you.  

[F14A-B]

I agree with you bosin, that's why I specifically stated 2 3/4 " magnum 12 ga.. I did omit one important detail that your post & the shot tower explanation reminded me of.. Copper plated shot.

You still get flyers though, I also shoot 3" & have taken a few turkey at 15 to 46 yds with 3 1/2" 12ga. I have killed big bucks, does, coyotes, turkeys to 30 pound, foxes, ferel cats, coydogs.. All with 12 ga magnum shells ( also 1 oz slugs ) in a home defensive situation, you are also correct, shot pattern will be very tight, depending on distance. 12 ga 2 3/4" magnums are wicked, to say the least. Steel shot is avail. But I never cared for it at all, maybe in a 4 shot for HD? Idk.. It's a interesting discussion & one that will continue for a long time. I'm confident in that shell putting the lights out pretty fast, if it takes 2,3 or 4 shots so be it, but if I hit him square, he's Likely going to be in deadly trouble ( I hope ) thing is, we never can be certain of anything till it has concluded. I know animals are not a great example, but I have no other true life examples to draw upon. I can't imagine any man that could withstand a 1 oz slug, or 437.5 gr traveling @ 1600 feet per second.

I use winchester as follows.. This Super-X 2-3/4" shell has 1 oz hollow point slug which it expels at 1600 fps. ... Muzzle Velocity: 1600 fps Muzzle Energy: 2488 ft/lbs

That's a massive amount of destruction there.

I've knocked 300 pound whitetail bucks in full rut clean off their hooves, have them kick a bit and it's over..

[F14A-B]

Ok, my mistake. You're talking a .38 loaded with rat shot. I missed that in your initial post. Sorry about that, carry on.

For the record, I agree with you.

I truly thought you did miss .38 rat shot, lol

No need to be sorry, no harm no foul.

[jbsoonerfan]

My 12 ga is loaded with 3" #3 steel shot.

[retiredbosn]

The rat shot event was a very lucky incident for the guy who got shot. The shooter had intend to kill him, butt as luck would have it he had been using the gun to dispatch snakes while he was digging ramps and forgot to reload the revolver. The two of them actually got into it over an illegal game of poker.

[SHaugh]

Watermelons don't lie...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noQGg_t5eYY

 

An ounce of lead traveling at 1200fps delivers incredible destruction. More than you need to completely destroy a human being.   It doesn't matter if it's birdshot or a slug in that regard, a human being will have a fist size hole in them.  But the fact that it's birdshot means the collateral damage is significantly less.

[retiredbosn]

Watermelons don't lie...

An ounce of lead traveling at 1200fps delivers incredible destruction. More than you need to completely destroy a human being. It doesn't matter if it's birdshot or a slug in that regard, a human being will have a fist size hole in them. But the fact that it's birdshot means the collateral damage is significantly less.

Did you read any of the reports I posted? Ever shoot a living animal with a shotgun? Your right an ounce of lead has tremendous stopping power an ounce of lead equals .0625lb and delivers over 1000ft-lbs of energy. However utilizing bird shot your only hitting them with pellets that weigh .0003245lb. 6 shot pellets will only deliver approximately 6.4 foot pounds of energy and that is on the high side, realistically the number is about 4ft-lbs, that's it no more, it's simple physics. I don't care if you're hit with 100 of them simultaneously 6.4 foot pounds that's it per pellet, there is no accumulative affect. Before I started fishing like I do now I was an avid bird hunter. I've seen some of the old timers shoot their dog in the butt, especially if the dog bumped the bird, I've never seen 8 shot even break skin, 6 shot will barely. I've shot birds as close as 5 yds, dead center of the pattern, they were mangled beyond human consumption, but every pellet that struck the bird (quail) were still in the bird. Also interestingly enough, if there was any accumulative affect of energy transference the bird would have been moved out of its flight path, a quail only weighs a few ounces, yet they all feel straight down. Additionally When using birdshot the pellets will not all arrive on target at the same time, they arrive in groups of maybe ten, it's called a shot string, and at regular hunting distances the string measures several feet. The amount of time for all pellets to arrive on target at pbr is milliseconds tho. Like I posted before what you use is your choice, but don't be surprised when the bad guy takes your gun and beats you with it after shooting them with birdshot. Like started before all its going to do is give them a nasty SHALLOW wound, I seriously doubt it would even knock them down. Your going to experience more energy transference from the recoil than the bad guy is going to absorb from the pellets.

[SHaugh]

That watermelon is pretty sure there is a "cumulative effect".     At 10 yards Which is a likely home defense range the group size will be about the size of your fist. ( Watch the video you posted.) 

 

If you're hit with that center concentration of lead its going to punch a fist size hole in you.  I think you might be confusing results at longer ranges.   At 20 yards birdshot is a poor choice, at 10 yards it's all you'll ever need.

[K_Mac]

Bosn your data is absolutely correct. There is good reason that all credible sources recommend #4 BUCKSHOT or bigger for defensive loads. Birdshot is great for small game. It is not for dangerous predators, whether four legged or two.

[alwayshungry]

profiency with your weapon (as well as familiarity with it), training, practice, and steely nerves/the ability to do what needs to be done with shaky hands, racing heart, and heavy breathing inherent to having to kill another human being are what will ultimately determine the outcome of your encounter with a baddy…regardless of your firearm

However, unless you have been in combat or have actually experienced shooting at someone/someone shooting at you, having the correct firearm and ammo will help tip the scales in your favor

ANY "gun guy" who has educated himself about all firearm types (handgun, shotgun, rifle), ammo types, along with the ballistic sciences behind why each ammo does what in each firearm WHEN IT IS USED AGAINST HUMANS/ANIMALS/A PROPER REPRESENTATION OF SUCH, would never use birdshot to save theirs and their families lives

there is tremendous responsibility inherent in being a gun owner - especially if you intend to use it to save yours or someone else's life - it goes way beyond keeping it out of your kids hands or the folks living with you

Yes, even if you can apply my first paragraph to yourself, there is always a possibility of a stray round finding it's way to the wrong target - it's the law of probability - but the more you prepare for the moment, the lower the probability that your bullet will cause unintended damage

it's pretty simple actually…you do not fire your weapon unless you are supremely confident that a missed shot will not end up speeding towards your child's bedroom or through your front windows and across the street

Again, I'm not trying to say that well trained, experienced shooters do not make mistakes/miss their target - but just like driving defensively, using your safety indicators, not getting distracted, avoiding drugs/alcohol, and applying intelligence and common sense while driving, it is of utmost importance to those inside and outside of your vehicle that you do everything in your power to drive safely - can you still have an unknown force/situation force you to have an accident? - of course - everyone knows there is great risk to driving but it's ok to take that risk as the ends justify the means

if you have a firearm and believe you have it in you to fire it at another human in self defense, then, if educated, you know very well that if you shoot, you shoot until you stop the threat - also, you had better know the laws in your area regarding using deadly force

for the educated gun guy, shots fired in self defense are aimed at the center of mass (upper torso to belly button) - you should NEVER EVER shoot to wound or try to shoot the perp in the knee or make a video game headshot - aiming at these targets will seriously increase your chances of missing, will most likely get you killed for your efforts

your goal should be to put as many rounds as possible into the center of mass until your baddy no longer presents a threat - Google the FBI studies on typical self defense distances - what they discovered was that, in most cases, the majority of agents/police/etc can JUST draw their weapons and get off enough rounds to stop an approaching attacker from reaching them if the baddy is ~ 7 yards/21 feet away when he starts towards them - on average, the time needed to cover the 21ft distance was about 3 seconds, give or take

the people on here who think a watermelon's or plywood's reaction to birdshot are indicative of how it will work on a human with elastic skin, layers of clothing, viscous body fluids, thick muscles, and bones are delusional and scarily uninformed

I've killed just about every game bird on earth with my 12 gauge loaded with birdshot and not one of them were knocked off course - in my youth, I've fired my 12 gauge at dead birds that were too shot up to harvest that were laying on hard dirt - the softness of the little birds body EASILY absorbed the energy of the full load and barely rolling 1/2 way over (from on their back to on their tummy ) - I've had to fire 3 or more rounds of birdshot at 15 yards to stop a South Texas jackrabbit on several occasions....with a tight choke in the barrel

those here that think a shotgun with ANY load will make a "fist sized hole" in a human target or who speak of ANY round "knocking down" a human target are the type of gun owners who make me very nervous (as I'm vigilant in doing what I can to protect theirs and my rights to bear arms) - they could also benefit greatly by acquiring even an elementary grasp of basic, fundamental physics

if launching a 165 grain projectile almost instantly from 0 - 900 ft/sec (640mph) doesn't knock the shooter down, what makes you think, even if the projectile could slam it's energy into their whole body at once, that the guy on the receiving end is going to be "knocked down"

back to your goal of stopping the threat - in the majority of situations, given the laws regarding justified use of deadly force and the proper action being defined as delivering your shots to the part of the body that CAN cause the damage needed to disrupt enough bodily functions to stop a motivated attacker who will be stabbing you in the throat within seconds of your encounter, you should be shooting with the intent to kill your attacker ASAP

a birdshot flesh wound, while spectacular to behold, WILL NOT stop the threat within your 2-3 second timeframe - and in the vast majority of cases, will not stop the threat at all - throw fear, adrenaline, anger, bad intentions, motivation, self preservation instinct, and the desire to kill you before you kill him, and you will most assuredly wish, in short order, that you and your loved ones had a proper, penetrating type of ammo on hand on the day you failed to make use of your luck in being able to get off any shots

the ONLY WAY to effectively and reliably stop the threat is to disrupt the bodily functions needed for someone to be a threat to you - heavy internal bleeding/hemorrhaging, damage to vital organs/spinal cord, broken/shattered bones, etc. - in order for this to happen, you HAVE to have penetration - this means your projectile must go in the body, travel 6"-15", hitting squishy stuff and smashing bones as it's moving inside the target, and preferably, dumping all of it's energy in the target and creating a wound channel, disrupting other vitals in its vicinity

to those who understand ballistics and the science behind why certain types of ammo do what they do, it is universally understood that birdshot, no matter the shell size/length or the gauge of the shotgun or amount of powder propelling it or the range to the target, will not penetrate enough to disrupt vitals and cause the subsequent internal damage necessary to achieve the desired effects

In a relatively slow moving handgun round or buckshot out of a shotgun, the damage is caused by the projectile deforming and flattening as it penetrates - soft lead buckshot will deform and move in different directions once inside the body, tearing your baddy' insides up and rendering him physically unable to keep trying to kill you - a hollow point handgun round almost doubles it's diameter and stops suddenly in the body, dumping it's energy and avoiding over penetration/keeping the bullet from simply poking a 9mm hole in your baddy/traveling farther than needed, thus protecting innocent people

a rifle round traveling 2-3 times faster than a shotgun round or handgun round, practically explodes into to sharp pieces of lead and copper and very rapidly changes direction/slams it's energy into the body - heavier rounds and purpose built bullets will, most times, pass through a human or an animal - but lighter rounds like a 55-70grain bullet from the common 5.56/.223 shot out of most ar-15's will rarely leave the body when center of mass is struck - because of over penetration, most large rifles are not considered to be a good choice for self defense, although a properly trained and equipped person can certainly employ a rifle in self defense with devastating effect

for those watching some numbskull on YouTube shooting birdshot at plywood thinking that it equals what birdshot will do in the human body, please check your sources - I can fire magnum loads with 240grain Speer golddot hollow points out of my .44magnum at 1400fps at plywood all day and not one round will do anything more than poke a small hole in it - same goes for my 30.06 with 165grain lead with copper jacketed hollow point rounds at 3000fps

However, I'll fire either gun at a small South Texas whitetail and they'll both "stop the threat" instantly when I hit him center of mass - same with buckshot - however, with birdshot, he'll receive a non-life threatening skin wound and simply run off

Find a reliable source of factual and scientific information, stop buying into lame videos made by people who are both unprofessional and unscientific in their testing, Wiki ballistics, research and view actual gunshot wounds, and question 99% of the nonsense that Hollywood puts in movies to sell tickets, and then you can speak intelligently on the subject and not damage the efforts of those of us who spend and fight to preserve your rights to own that gun

alwayshungry

[A-Jay]

profiency with your weapon (as well as familiarity with it), training, practice, and steely nerves/the ability to do what needs to be done with shaky hands, racing heart, and heavy breathing inherent to having to kill another human being are what will ultimately determine the outcome of your encounter with a baddy…regardless of your firearm

However, unless you have been in combat or have actually experienced shooting at someone/someone shooting at you, having the correct firearm and ammo will help tip the scales in your favor

ANY "gun guy" who has educated himself about all firearm types (handgun, shotgun, rifle), ammo types, along with the ballistic sciences behind why each ammo does what in each firearm WHEN IT IS USED AGAINST HUMANS/ANIMALS/A PROPER REPRESENTATION OF SUCH, would never use birdshot to save theirs and their families lives

there is tremendous responsibility inherent in being a gun owner - especially if you intend to use it to save yours or someone else's life - it goes way beyond keeping it out of your kids hands or the folks living with you

Yes, even if you can apply my first paragraph to yourself, there is always a possibility of a stray round finding it's way to the wrong target - it's the law of probability - but the more you prepare for the moment, the lower the probability that your bullet will cause unintended damage

it's pretty simple actually…you do not fire your weapon unless you are supremely confident that a missed shot will not end up speeding towards your child's bedroom or through your front windows and across the street

Again, I'm not trying to say that well trained, experienced shooters do not make mistakes/miss their target - but just like driving defensively, using your safety indicators, not getting distracted, avoiding drugs/alcohol, and applying intelligence and common sense while driving, it is of utmost importance to those inside and outside of your vehicle that you do everything in your power to drive safely - can you still have an unknown force/situation force you to have an accident? - of course - everyone knows there is great risk to driving but it's ok to take that risk as the ends justify the means

if you have a firearm and believe you have it in you to fire it at another human in self defense, then, if educated, you know very well that if you shoot, you shoot until you stop the threat - also, you had better know the laws in your area regarding using deadly force

for the educated gun guy, shots fired in self defense are aimed at the center of mass (upper torso to belly button) - you should NEVER EVER shoot to wound or try to shoot the perp in the knee or make a video game headshot - aiming at these targets will seriously increase your chances of missing, will most likely get you killed for your efforts

your goal should be to put as many rounds as possible into the center of mass until your baddy no longer presents a threat - Google the FBI studies on typical self defense distances - what they discovered was that, in most cases, the majority of agents/police/etc can JUST draw their weapons and get off enough rounds to stop an approaching attacker from reaching them if the baddy is ~ 7 yards/21 feet away when he starts towards them - on average, the time needed to cover the 21ft distance was about 3 seconds, give or take

the people on here who think a watermelon's or plywood's reaction to birdshot are indicative of how it will work on a human with elastic skin, layers of clothing, viscous body fluids, thick muscles, and bones are delusional and scarily uninformed

I've killed just about every game bird on earth with my 12 gauge loaded with birdshot and not one of them were knocked off course - in my youth, I've fired my 12 gauge at dead birds that were too shot up to harvest that were laying on hard dirt - the softness of the little birds body EASILY absorbed the energy of the full load and barely rolling 1/2 way over (from on their back to on their tummy ) - I've had to fire 3 or more rounds of birdshot at 15 yards to stop a South Texas jackrabbit on several occasions....with a tight choke in the barrel

those here that think a shotgun with ANY load will make a "fist sized hole" in a human target or who speak of ANY round "knocking down" a human target are the type of gun owners who make me very nervous (as I'm vigilant in doing what I can to protect theirs and my rights to bear arms) - they could also benefit greatly by acquiring even an elementary grasp of basic, fundamental physics

if launching a 165 grain projectile almost instantly from 0 - 900 ft/sec (640mph) doesn't knock the shooter down, what makes you think, even if the projectile could slam it's energy into their whole body at once, that the guy on the receiving end is going to be "knocked down"

back to your goal of stopping the threat - in the majority of situations, given the laws regarding justified use of deadly force and the proper action being defined as delivering your shots to the part of the body that CAN cause the damage needed to disrupt enough bodily functions to stop a motivated attacker who will be stabbing you in the throat within seconds of your encounter, you should be shooting with the intent to kill your attacker ASAP

a birdshot flesh wound, while spectacular to behold, WILL NOT stop the threat within your 2-3 second timeframe - and in the vast majority of cases, will not stop the threat at all - throw fear, adrenaline, anger, bad intentions, motivation, self preservation instinct, and the desire to kill you before you kill him, and you will most assuredly wish, in short order, that you and your loved ones had a proper, penetrating type of ammo on hand on the day you failed to make use of your luck in being able to get off any shots

the ONLY WAY to effectively and reliably stop the threat is to disrupt the bodily functions needed for someone to be a threat to you - heavy internal bleeding/hemorrhaging, damage to vital organs/spinal cord, broken/shattered bones, etc. - in order for this to happen, you HAVE to have penetration - this means your projectile must go in the body, travel 6"-15", hitting squishy stuff and smashing bones as it's moving inside the target, and preferably, dumping all of it's energy in the target and creating a wound channel, disrupting other vitals in its vicinity

to those who understand ballistics and the science behind why certain types of ammo do what they do, it is universally understood that birdshot, no matter the shell size/length or the gauge of the shotgun or amount of powder propelling it or the range to the target, will not penetrate enough to disrupt vitals and cause the subsequent internal damage necessary to achieve the desired effects

In a relatively slow moving handgun round or buckshot out of a shotgun, the damage is caused by the projectile deforming and flattening as it penetrates - soft lead buckshot will deform and move in different directions once inside the body, tearing your baddy' insides up and rendering him physically unable to keep trying to kill you - a hollow point handgun round almost doubles it's diameter and stops suddenly in the body, dumping it's energy and avoiding over penetration/keeping the bullet from simply poking a 9mm hole in your baddy/traveling farther than needed, thus protecting innocent people

a rifle round traveling 2-3 times faster than a shotgun round or handgun round, practically explodes into to sharp pieces of lead and copper and very rapidly changes direction/slams it's energy into the body - heavier rounds and purpose built bullets will, most times, pass through a human or an animal - but lighter rounds like a 55-70grain bullet from the common 5.56/.223 shot out of most ar-15's will rarely leave the body when center of mass is struck - because of over penetration, most large rifles are not considered to be a good choice for self defense, although a properly trained and equipped person can certainly employ a rifle in self defense with devastating effect

for those watching some numbskull on YouTube shooting birdshot at plywood thinking that it equals what birdshot will do in the human body, please check your sources - I can fire magnum loads with 240grain Speer golddot hollow points out of my .44magnum at 1400fps at plywood all day and not one round will do anything more than poke a small hole in it - same goes for my 30.06 with 165grain lead with copper jacketed hollow point rounds at 3000fps

However, I'll fire either gun at a small South Texas whitetail and they'll both "stop the threat" instantly when I hit him center of mass - same with buckshot - however, with birdshot, he'll receive a non-life threatening skin wound and simply run off

Find a reliable source of factual and scientific information, stop buying into lame videos made by people who are both unprofessional and unscientific in their testing, Wiki ballistics, research and view actual gunshot wounds, and question 99% of the nonsense that Hollywood puts in movies to sell tickets, and then you can speak intelligently on the subject and not damage the efforts of those of us who spend and fight to preserve your rights to own that gun

alwayshungry

 

Hello and Welcome to Bass Resource ~

 

Heck of a first post btw.

 

A-Jay

[K_Mac]

I will echo A-Jay's above post: Welcome to Bass Resourse alwayshungry. Your first post shows you have a clear understanding of the capabilities and limitations of firearms, especially when it comes to stopping predators. Thanks for stopping by! I look forward to getting to know you better.

[alwayshungry]

@A-Jay & K_Mac:

thanks for welcoming me to the forum! - I came here to soak up all of the information I can about bass fishing, was perusing the list of forums, and stumbled upon this conversation

Since I know way more about firearms than fishing, I thought it would serve as an instant opportunity to try and share what I know and start contributing/adding value to the forums

I have been quietly lurking around here for a few weeks and the breadth of bass fishing info that is being shared by the forum members, in a very generous and friendly way, as well as the other resources on the site, have taught me so much in my brief existence in this community - the atmosphere is so relaxed!!

spending time reading the invaluable experience that is being so freely shared by the members is becoming a wonderful diversion from everyday life for me - because the members here are so kind, spending a bit of time each day reading is rather cathartic

I only hope to be able to contribute to the fishing side of things in the near future

[everythingthatswims]

Analyze it however you want, a ounce (or more) of #6 bird shot at close range is terrifying and I would have no problem using it as a home defense round.