Deep Divers

[BIG M]

Here are a couple of deep divers the bottom bait is a monster.

[NEKvt]

Aside from lip size what are you doing to get these baits down deep?

[whittler]

WOW. Marty, those should get to the bottom in a hurry. They look great as always.

[dan82205]

Crazy how deep you think that will go??

dan

[BIG M]

The top bait will hit 16-18 feet the bottom bait I'm hoping to hit 25 feet consistantly.

Lip size and enough weight to cast as far as possible.   That's the trick to a deep diver.   If the fisherman can only throw 125 feet the bait will never reach it's max depth.   There is not enough line out to allow the bait to reach max depth.    These two baits are weighted to the max and in the right fisherman's hands they will hit max depth.

[NEKvt]

Makes sense. I need to learn to cast better.

[booneangler]

what is that color on the bottum something similar to a lavender shad isnt it ???

[BIG M]

That's my version of Texas Shad.   Stone grey over pearl white with the pink stripe.

[whittler]

A chunk of balsa + circuit board + artist = fantastic looking baits.

[cootertom]

That's a good looking shad. I keep returning to look at it.

[jbass]

I have a hard time getting the weight forward just right. I have a tendency to get the dreaded spins with my deep diving baits. They go fine for a few feet and then blow out.

[BIG M]

Post a pic of a bait and let me look at it.   If it's doing a death roll then I would be the line tie is out position, lip is crooked, lip angle is too steep and not enough weight.

Let me look at a good profile shot of a deep diver.

[jbass]

Well here she is it's one of the first I tried. I moved the line tie once and reinstalled the diving bill. I hope this picture is ok to tell.

[BIG M]

That's a good looking diver.   The balast weight looks perfect.   The line tie is too close to the nose of the bait, move it out to the halfway point between the nose and end of the lip.   You also want the lip to be straight out of the bait or pointing down a few degrees, that one is angled above the bait a few degrees.

Take that pattern and draw a straight line from the middle of the tail to the nose.   That's where you want to mark the lip slot.

[jbass]

Thanks a lot for the info. I patterned it after a Poe. I'll move the line tie out and make a longer lip as well. Do you find that your diving lips may flex because of the length? With the pressure against the lip to get it to dive, it seems the lip would flex quite a bit.

[BIG M]

No the lip is not going to flex, water pressure is not that strong.   Master the mid depths and then move to deeper water, that way you will have a good knowledge base for finding answers to the problems you will encounter.

[ernel]

Jbass, use a protractor and set the lip angle between 8 and 11 degrees down to start. You are also going to want to use a smaller diameter line tie that can be placed flush to the lip.

With a larger line tie there will be more room for the split ring to move during the retrieve. This will make the lure do some crazy things not to mention be a pain to tune. You have multiple pull points during the retrieve with a deep diving crank.

On a clock face you could say that the split ring will move from around the 10 o'clock position as the lure is at it's deepest point with a long line, to the twelve o'clock as the lure is coming up  with a shorter line.

With a high line tie and large diameter line tie you can be moving your pull point as much a 1 to 1.5 mm. Doesn't sound like much, but it is night and day to a small deep diving crank.

I personally use a line tie that is 4 mm in diameter. I drill two holes in the lip instead of one. (4 mm apart) This keeps the widest part of the line tie flush to the lip, and every thing above that point is getting smaller. This keeps the split ring in close proximity to the same point during the retrieve, just changing angles. The one hole method will work, it is just not my way.

Eric

[BIG M]

Ok, I'll bite on this one.   Why 8-11 degrees on the lip angle?    Why am I just finding out about this line tie issue?   Just when you think you've got it all figured out.  

I'm going to the shop now >

[NEKvt]

Some info gems and good things to try in this thread.  Keep chattering while I soak it up please.

I am especially going to have to remember the master the mid depths bit.  Just learning and have only a tub to test in all winter  :'(  No sense trying to master the deep.

[ernel]

Ok, I'll bite on this one.   Why 8-11 degrees on the lip angle?    Why am I just finding out about this line tie issue?   Just when you think you've got it all figured out.  

I'm going to the shop now >

Marty,

The reason I stated 8-11 degrees, is because the particular body style he has posted is fairly close to my pot belly shad. Not as defined in the belly, but close. I have had very good results with my lures using that angle. (I settled for for 9 degrees using my laminate method) I turn the lure diagram upside down and then get my angle from the center line 13 mm from the nose of the lure. 13 mm from the nose is the end of my lip slot. (Prior to sanding and shaping)

As far as the line tie issue, back about 1 1/2 years back I had tried a different line tie method. I was trying the single hole instead of drilling two holes. I had accidentally used used the wrong finish nail on my wire wrapping jig. It was slightly larger, and caused the line tie to ride slightly higher above the lip. I kept accidentally using the wrong nail even while moving the line tie 1 mm from the original position with poor results. The action just was not what it should have been and the lure seemed to blow out easier.

So after trying for a little over 2 weeks of trial and error, I posted the question over on TU and got several different responses from one of the guys that had been building for years, and he explained that to me. I am trying to remember who it was, but I am drawing a blank. Their sight is running extremely slow so I can't log on and do a search.

If you think about it, as your lure is retrieved back to the boat, the angle of the line changes. It changes as the lure starts to dive from 0 degrees as the lure is on top of the water, to almost 90 degrees as the lure is being pulled back up to the boat. (Probably closer to 75-80) As the angle of the line changes, the split ring has to move on the line tie. The lip keeps the lure trying to dive deeper, but it will only have a maximum angle a dive.

Most of my lures are at there deepest point probably 30-40 feet from the boat so after that point, the split ring is closer to the top of the line tie than when they are beating the bottom. This goes along with the PM we were discussing when I was saying having a lure run true and then want to spiral as it is pulled out of deeper water. That is when it was  taking me 2 pair of needle nose pliers to tune the lure. The front was tuned properly, but somehow I had managed to get the top out.

If you watch your deep diving lure as you bring it up at the boat you will see your split ring is at or close to the twelve o'clock position. Your mag diver may even be beyond the the twelve o'clock position as you bring it up at the boat. (Not running beside the boat)

Eric

[jbass]

Eric, Marty, thanks for the info. Eric, what you posted is a little much to absorb right now. I'll work on the lip angle of 8 to 11 degrees. Now, is that off of center line from the front to back through the hook eye in back? If so I've got it. It will be a while before I get back to my shop, honey-do's you know, anyone that's married will know what I'm talking about.

Jerry

[BIG M]

Eric, I've never thought about the line tie in those terms. I use to do the two hole method and tried to get away from that one. It's hard enough to drill one hole perfectly centered.

On a body style like the bait posted, I tend to fall toward the straight lip. My mag diver pattern has a 10 degree lip angle but it's a much different body style with a deep belly. Jbass the best thing to do is try both methods and see which works the best.

My mag diver comes back to you from the other side of the boat.

Jbass, keep reading that info posted by Eric.   The man flat knows the deep running bait.      

[ernel]

Awwwwe shucks Marty.  

I here ya' about two holes. You could always look back under the boat as the lure comes up. Just find someone you trust to hold onto your feet. Don't forget your snorkel  ;D

"I've never thought about the line tie in those terms"  

I may be backwards in my position of the slip ring on the line tie though.  :-[ I will have to check on that and repost. Head is all clouded up from a head cold so thinking is a little compromised now.

Jbass,

The angle would be to the front of the lure from the center line. When you cut the lip slot, you will cut along the angle line. I draw my lures on paper, so I can make the line as long as needed to get through the protractor.

If you have time try one at 8, and try one Marty's way at 0 and one at 4 degrees. Without the larger belly like mine you may not need the increase in angle that I am using. I actually started with a 13.5 degree angle.

Eric