Whats The Water Temp When The Bass Start To Spawn?

[WRB]

Roger,

How do you explain lakes that are in the same latitude, longitude with 30 to 50 miles having spawning cycles starting 4 months apart with the same photoperiod?

California is unlike Florida topography, we have one feature in common, coastal zone. Florida is nearly surrounded by ocean water and very little change in altitude. California coastal zones have a coastal mountain range, large valley zones boarded by higher mountain ranges that creates a Mditerresn climate.

The example of Big Bear lake in the San Bernadino mountains at 7,000 ft the bass begin to spawn late May to early June. Silverwood lake, about the same size and depth is 30 miles away at 3,500 ft altitude, the spawn begins in April to May and Lake Perris or DVL about 50 miles away from both Big Bear and Silverwood located in the valley at less than 1,000 ft altitude the spawn starts in March to April. Where I fish is 100 miles further north at Lake Casitas, a coastal foothill lake and the spawn started in late Feb to March.

The key factor at these lakes is water temperature and stable weather that combined with the longer day light hours allows the water to warm into the 60's at the depth the bass spawn.

The higher alititude lakes warm slower due to thinner air and colder nights,

Sure their are lots of other factors to consider, photoperiod is a factor.

Tom

[Catt]

We know Mexico spawns before Minnesota but the same list of parameters, conditions, or factors are present at both locations.

[WRB]

Photoperiods and climate are vastly different between Minnisota and Mexico because of latitude.

Altitude plays a big factor in California. For example the same exact photoperiod can be found in Palm Springs and Mt San Jacinto. 2 mile tram ride takes from over 100 degrees in Palm Springs in the desert to below freezing at the top of the tram. Big Bear lake is about 30 miles away from Palm Springs and San Jacinto as the crow flies and less then 5 miles from Mt San Gorgonio.

Tom

[RoLo]

The following is a direct quote from a Bass Resource article entitled: “Springtime and Spawning”.

<quote> “Fish reproduction tends to primarily be cued by photoperiod - how much light and dark in a day.

However, it can be modified somewhat by temperature" <unquote>

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/springtime-spawning.html

 

 

The URL below involves the culture of Florida-strain bass, published by the Texas Inland Waters Division.

In this account, 'photoperiod manipulation' is the primary tool, where water temperature is important only inasmuch

as it provides the preferred minimum incubation temperature of 13 C (59 deg F). It’s a lengthy PDF,

so I’d recommend typing the word "photoperiod" in your search engine.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Guidelines-for-the-Culture-of-Black-Bass.pdf

 

 

Let's shake it up some more:

In spite of its strong empirical following (anecdotal evidence) the influence of moon phase on bass spawning activity

has never been substantiated by science. On the other hand, “water level and the direction of water level”

has a known and telling effect on spawning activity, yet it's rarely addressed. High and rising water levels

stimulate spawning, while low and falling water levels undermine the urge to spawn. Low water levels

are in fact responsible for year-class holes in the biomass. For instance, this year in Florida

we have unusually high water levels in most of our major fisheries. Although no one is talking about it 'yet',

2015 will go down as a banner spawning year in Florida.

 

Roger

[Dwight Hottle]

The following is a direct quote from a Bass Resource article entitled: “Springtime and Spawning”.

<quote> “Fish reproduction tends to primarily be cued by photoperiod - how much light and dark in a day.

However, it can be modified somewhat by temperature" <unquote>

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/springtime-spawning.html

 

 

The URL below involves the culture of Florida-strain bass, published by the Texas Inland Waters Division.

In this account, 'photoperiod manipulation' is the primary tool, where water temperature is important only inasmuch

as it provides the preferred minimum incubation temperature of 13 C (59 deg F). It’s a lengthy PDF,

so I’d recommend typing the word "photoperiod" in your search engine.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Guidelines-for-the-Culture-of-Black-Bass.pdf

 

 

Let's shake it up some more:

In spite of its strong empirical following (anecdotal evidence) the influence of moon phase on bass spawning activity

has never been substantiated by science. On the other hand, “water level and the direction of water level”

has a known and telling effect on spawning activity, yet it's rarely addressed. High and rising water levels

stimulate spawning, while low and falling water levels undermine the urge to spawn. Low water levels

are in fact responsible for year-class holes in the biomass. For instance, this year in Florida

we have unusually high water levels in most of our major fisheries. Although no one is talking about it 'yet',

2015 will go down as a banner spawning year in Florida.

 

Roger

 

 

Interesting observation about 2015 spawn. I'm willing to bet that 2015 will go down as a banner year for DD bass caught & reported as well.

[Paul Roberts]

Let's shake it up some more:

In spite of its strong empirical following (anecdotal evidence) the influence of moon phase on bass spawning activity

has never been substantiated by science. On the other hand, “water level and the direction of water level” has a known and telling effect on spawning activity, yet it's rarely addressed. High and rising water levels stimulate spawning, while low and falling water levels undermine the urge to spawn. Low water levels are in fact responsible for year-class holes in the biomass. For instance, this year in Florida we have unusually high water levels in most of our major fisheries. Although no one is talking about it 'yet', 2015 will go down as a banner spawning year in Florida.

 

Roger

 

Agree with you on the moon comment. Your prediction of a banner year for the 2015 reproductive season is probably going to be born out. However, the effect of high water level is likely to be more on fry survival than it is on spawn timing.

[RoLo]

Agree with you on the moon comment. Your prediction of a banner year for the 2015 reproductive season is probably going to be born out. However, the effect of high water level is likely to be more on fry survival than it is on spawn timing.

 

When I mentioned the bonus of high water, I wasn't alluding to spawn timing nor fry survival.

The typical natural lake in Florida exhibits slow tapering bottom contour in the littoral zone.

In and of itself, high water during the spawning season can result in a multifold increase in eligible bedding flats.

Depending on the bottom contour of the lake in question, a mere 12-inch elevation in pool level

could possibly 'double' the area of suitable spawning grounds (i.e. population dynamics).

Roger

[Paul Roberts]

Ah! So the limitation is suitable spawning habitat. I was thinking spawn timing since this is the thread topic. I was also thinking how, in many waters, high water brings increased fry survival from increased fry habitat. The boons in my ponds get their start on high water years.

 

Just goes to show that all politics is local. There's a lot going on out there that's for sure. Our job is to find patterns in it all. Good conversation.

[WRB]

Roger, Florida has the lowest average elevation then any other state, the highest point in northern Florida is less then 350 ft, the temperatures are stable, day to night doesn't vary more than 10 degres,therefore water temperature do not vary much, as you stated earlier. The bass react to photoperiods, changes in length of day light, they don't have much else to stimulate a spawn.

The Texas plain is similar, varies from 750 ft to about 300 ft, flat like Florida. West Texas border with New Mexico has a mountain range. Texas is colder then Florida, not sure what the average day to night temperature changes are, excluding severe weather. I agree that photoperiods would have a major impact for the lakes located in east Texas plain when the temperature are stable.

California the average year around day to night temperature change average is 30 degrees, less close to the coast, more inland and at high altitudes. Lots of micro climates that affect water temperatures, the photoperiod has less affect than water temperature, but definitely is a factor.

Good discussion with differing points of view, thanks for bring the photoperiod topic up.

Being in a 4 year drought and very low pool levels, our spawn recruitment will be low, very sparse cover for the fry to hide in.

Tom

[Paul Roberts]

Apparently, most FL waters do vary in temperature. And the important values appear to be in the same ballpark as the rest of the country:

 

From Rogers' and Allen's "Water Temps Drive the Spawn":

 

http://sfrc.ufl.edu/allenlab/Popular%20Articles/Rogers&Allen_BassTimes.pdf

 

[F14A-B]

To whom it may concern,

My questions are as follows, how can one state emphatically that the moon influence has either a influence on spawn, or no influence on spawn? In what measure? It's known what effects the moon has on at least some aspects of life and water. Is not the photoperiod a constant day to day, season to season, one year to the next, reliable fact of life? So, it stands to reason ( fact ) this is reliable. Weather is the fairly unpredictable factor here. It stands to reason that photoperiod is the single most important factor, but it's result is increased water temp, along with plant growth. Seems to me the deciding factor has to be water temp. This now presents a new question to me. How is it assumed now, that Florida stands to have a Banner year in Spawing & DD FLMB fishes? What is this prediction based on? Surely not the photoperiod. I find this interesting if not a bit perplexing on at least a couple points.

Thanks for any clarification..

[WRB]

This years spawn will not reach DD weights for at least 5 years, you need to look at water levels and spawning success for prior years. High water offers more new areas for the bass to find prey, which in turn makes the DD bass more catchable because anglers target the new flooded areas.

The photoperiod is a major factor if the water temps are above 60 degrees and as I have explained that doesn't always occur everywherein the same lake, deep cold water warms slower than shallow protected areas or differing climate conditions.

My 2 cents, let the experts explain it to you.

Tom

[Paul Roberts]

how can one state emphatically that the moon influence has either a influence on spawn, or no influence on spawn? In what measure? It's known what effects the moon has on at least some aspects of life and water.

Effects on other life forms don’t necessarily stretch across all life forms. We all love such an idea, as a unifying theory simplifies things. There are unifying things but they are difficult to get at, and we are easily fooled. Every scientist who has gotten in deep –put in the work– has come up against their own biases.

 

What is “known” about moon effects on freshwater fish comes from fisherman’s theories, angler catch records, and scientists research. Angler theories are rarely, if ever, really appropriately tested and when taken collectively include the entire month! They can’t all be right. Angler catch records some say show some statistical evidence for lunar effects. None have held up to rigorous statistical evaluation however. Scientific research looking at lunar effects on bass have not shown any solid effects. I attempted to tackle the question myself and did not find any smoking guns that could not be explained by other means.

 

I am not terribly enamored by moon theories anymore, however I will keep an open mind. It is still possible that even a minor effect (such as moon influence) could be unmasked from the shadow of more important (and likely more local) effectors in certain circumstances. I’m not closed to that. But I’m highly skeptical, esp where sufficient rigor has not been applied. It’s human nature to jump at answers.

 

Is not the photoperiod a constant day to day, season to season, one year to the next, reliable fact of life? So, it stands to reason ( fact ) this is reliable.

The sun coming up every day, through the year, and even beyond, is the most reliable thing known.

 

Weather is the fairly unpredictable factor here. It stands to reason that photoperiod is the single most important factor, but it's result is increased water temp, along with plant growth. Seems to me the deciding factor has to be water temp. This now presents a new question to me. How is it assumed now, that Florida stands to have a Banner year in Spawing & DD FLMB fishes? What is this prediction based on? Surely not the photoperiod. I find this interesting if not a bit perplexing on at least a couple points.

I think what Roger’s referring to is the fact that there are events that affect reproduction that, if recognized, make reasonably good predictors. In that case he’s talking recruitment: water level being an important –even critical– factor in year class success. He’s right. Doesn’t mean it’ll pan out exactly as planned, but the pattern of high water during the spawn tends to result in good YOY (young-of-the-year) survivorship. That’s the start for a strong year class. It's a good prediction.

[Paul Roberts]

As Catt suggests above, there is no one event. There are multiple events in a cycle that starts the previous year.

 

Some key factors:

Egg maturation -Having the raw materials to get the job done happens the previous year or, in some individuals or even populations during tough conditions, the final "deposits" are made during early spring. This is why the larger fish are more apt to spawn earliest -they can afford it. And small fish are most apt spawn latest. I've seen this in my own (albeit amateur) pond studies. Southern females may spawn more than once; far northern fish may not spawn every year. Tropical bass (introduced) have shown an extended spawning season (like south FL)

Photoperiod -Photoperiod changes have direct endocrine effects that goad the process and GENERALLY synchonize the event. Lots of literature out there on this and it's powerful enough to experimentally force spawning events in fish and other animals -with other keys in place, temperature being the final requirement.

Temperature -Temperature is critical to cold-blooded creatures, and with fish it is the final push. It allows for body weight gain efficiency, activity required for spawning behaviors, and protects temperature sensitive eggs.

[F14A-B]

Thank you Mr. Paul Roberts, I appreciate your response.

[Catt]

We must look at the entire spawning ritual, which does not start with the first egg laid!

We would have to be kinda naive to think one parameter, condition, event, factor or what ever adjective or adverbs we care to use could control this complex of a process.

We can draw one conclusion for certain; each has to be present and accounted for in order for the spawn to occur.

[WRB]

Agree

[Paul Roberts]

Agree. except to say that, in 99.99999% of waters, temperature is the thing to track for initiation.

[RoLo]

IMO, daring to place any one criterion in the driver's seat simply misses the big picture.

There are exceptions notwithstanding, when photoperiod is indeed the major indicator,

for instance, in spring-fed waters that maintain a stable year-round water temperature.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of any situation when water temperature (a volatile measure with a wide supportive latitude)

could possibly stand alone for initiation or closure.

 

Roger

[Paul Roberts]

Roger, no one has said temperature stands alone.

[RoLo]

Roger, no one has said temperature stands alone.

 

99.99999% sounds pretty alone  ;-)

[Paul Roberts]

The remaining 0.000001% of bass waters I'm referring to are the isothermic spring waters, and tropical reservoirs where LM have been introduced well south of their existing range. I suppose we might be able to add in some cooling reservoirs, but most of those have cool locations and periods too. We're still looking at a tiny percentage of bass waters where temperature doesn't play a dominant and final role.

[Catt]

Agree. except to say that, in 99.99999% of waters, temperature is the thing to track for initiation.

That pretty much says ya think temperature "alone" starts the spawn!

Falsifiable: A hypothesis or theory is an inherent possibility to prove it to be false.

Example: all swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Karl Popper's scientific epistemology "falsificationism"

Your 0.000001% proves your hypothesis/ theory false!

[Basseditor]

Anecdotal evidence from today... Launch ramp area water temperature was mid 50s. I didn't get to practice so I didn't know where and at what stage the bass were in. So we're thinking ok, traps in the grass. Prespawn mode right?

We go to an area that usually has grass. First fish was 5+ then nothing for an hour. So time to move. We go to a cove that warms pretty quickly and temp was a few degrees warmer. About 57-58. About noon, clouds clear out and when the sun is up enough to see beds, guess what? Beds all over. Bass in full spawning mode and the temperature was still under 60 degrees.

[RoLo]

The remaining 0.000001% of bass waters I'm referring to are the isothermic spring waters.

 

0.000001% is a brutal underestimation of the area comprised by isothermic waterbodies.

There are throngs of waters that disavow water temperature, to name just a few:

 

> Crystal River                     (7 miles long)                72-deg year-round

> Blue Grotto Springs        (359 million gal/day)    74.3 deg year-round

> Alapaha Rise Springs       (384 million gal/day)      70.3-deg year-round

> Rainbow River                (5.7 miles long)            73-deg year-round

> Ichetucknee Springs          (6-miles long)               72 deg year-round

> Ponce De Leon Springs  (14 million gal/day)      68-deg year-round

> Aucilla Spring                  (189 millions gal/day)  68.9-deg year-round

> Emerald Spring               (125 million gal/day)    70.5-deg year-round

> Gainer Spring                    (125 million gal/day)      70.9-deg year-round

> St Marks Rise                  (292 million gal/day)    68.8-deg year-round

> Otter Springs – White Spring – Worthington Spring – Troy Spring – Telford Spring  ~  ~  ~  ~

 

 

and tropical reservoirs where LM have been introduced well south of their existing range.

 

Tropical reservoirs?

No not Cuba, all these waters are found right here inside the 'native range' of the largemouth bass

 

Roger