Other Indications Of Prespawn Bass Besides Temperature?

[RoLo]

Where live in SoCal the spawn has started in coastal lakes, another month 30 miles inland and 100 miles further south,

at Big Bear lake the spawn will not start for at least 3.months as the lake is still frozen over and snowing as I write this,

it will that long until the water temps reach the 60's. The difference isn't latitude or photoperiod,  it's altitude and water temperature.

Tom

 

You Can't Be Serious!

 

Pollination, blossoming, bird migration and scores of other natural events are all linked directly to "Photoperiod".

The bond is so close that countless annual events in nature recur the same time every year within days.

A natural event that depended on water temperature could never be predicted within days, because temperature

is volatile and unpredictable. I feed wildlife in my backyard all year long, however we only see red fox

during their mating season. Every year, we see our first red fox between April 6 & April 10, every year

regardless of weather or air temperature. The same is true for migratory birds, where the Audubon Society

knows the arrival dates and departure dates of all transient species. The birds follow those schedules

like clockwork, because they're governed by "photoperiod", not by air temperature. Ideal temperatures

are only coincidental, and may be achieved numerous times without triggering departure or arrival.

The vegetable kingdom and animal kingdom are interdependent, they are inextricably linked.

 

You labeled "water temperature" as a key factor, but water temperature is not causative, it's coincidental.

As Mother Nature would have it, fish eggs hatch in a wide range of water temperatures, it's not a critical constraint.

During the past couple of weeks, the weather in central Florida has been schizoid. Our lake temperatures

have seesawed between 55 to 69 degrees. Many anglers hold that 65-deg water is perfect for spawning bass.

Nevertheless, bedding activity in central Florida remains sparse at best, but this is normal for this time of year,

regardless of ever-fluctuating water temperatures.

 

If water temperature was in fact the key, then fish would spawn twice a year. They would spawn once in spring

and again in fall during the same water temperature range. In reality, 'photoperiod' prevents this from happening,

because 'day-length' is in a downtrend during the fall, which prevents the secretion of reproductive hormones.

 

In post #11 above, I discussed the spring-fed waters in Florida that maintain a "year-round" water temperature

of 70 to 72 degrees. Yet, despite a constant water temperature, the bass in these waterbodies spawn unerringly,

once every year in spring. You denounced photoperiod as a timing factor, so you'll need to explain how

water temperature can trigger the reproductive urge in lakes where water temperature is stable throughout the year?

 

Roger

[WRB]

Roger, I am willing to keep an open mind, post a link to fishery management study that supports photoperiod being the major factor to LMB spawn and water temperature secondary.

You reference a spring feed lake with year around constant water temperatures 70-72 degrees, do the bass spawn the week each year?

I referenced 3 lakes in the same photoperiod with 100 miles of each other, the spawn periods are about 1 month different each year. I need to study photoperiod more to understand how the same exact length of day light or photoperiod can do different where these lakes are located. The plants bloom within a week period, the migration of birds is very predicable at these lakes, the bass spawn varies with water temperature do to very different night time temperatures, similar day time temps. Lake Castaic the day time temps are warmer than Casitas, the night time colder, photoperiod similar. Mustard plant for example bloom the same week at both these lakes, the bass spawn is 6 weeks different on average. I added a Big Bear lake, a 7,000 foot alitutde mountain lake with LMB population because I lived there and know this lake, the bass spawn late May to End of June. Casitas and Casitas I have fished for over 45 years and know them very well. The spawn at Casitas is usually starts sometime between Feburary and March, Castaic starts about 4-6 weeks later late March to May.

Tom

[Catt]

I'm the dumb Cajun in this conversation but even I understand how this works. The water temperature can only increase as the photoperiod increases. The photoperiod can only increase by the length of daylight increasing (spring time).

So Tom if your water temperature is in fact at your magical "60 degrees" it can only be due to the fact the length of daylight has increased.

We also must include the earth is once again getting closer to the sun (spring time).

This is just a dumb Cajun's understanding

[WRB]

I'm the dumb Cajun in this conversation but even I understand how this works. The water temperature can only increase as the photoperiod increases. The photoperiod can only increase by the length of daylight increasing (spring time).

So Tom if your water temperature is in fact at your magical "60 degrees" it can only be due to the fact the length of daylight has increased.

We also must include the earth is once again getting closer to the sun (spring time).

This is just a dumb Cajun's understanding

All I am asking how can the lakes within a 30 mile radius with the same photoperiod be so different. These lakes are the same size, depth and exposure to sunlight. The lake that always spawns first is Castias, it' s closer to the ocean, about 5 miles. Castaic is inland about 35 miles further. I know why the air temperature differ, the photoperiods are identicle. Less wind at Castias then Castaic, colder nights, both combine to cool the water, but supports water temperature not sunlight exposure time.

Then there are the higher elevation mountain lakes that have the same photoperiod, very cold nights with cooler days that prevent the water to warm until June when the spawn occurs.

I would like to,agree and do understand the affects of sunlight warming water.

Tom

[Catt]

Tom, how can the northern end of Toledo Bend spawn before the southern end which is 65 miles closer to the coast?

Common sense would say the southern end should spawn first!

Are not both exposed to the same photoperiod?

[Josh Smith]

I just watch for increased Adam and Eve deliveries to the lake.  That's a pretty good sign.

[RoLo]

Water temperature and air temperature both fluctuate back-&-forth, but photoperiod is predictable.

A spring day might have the same day-length as a fall day, but they’re easily distinguished

because spring day-length is in an uptrend, while fall day-length is in a downtrend.

 

Nevertheless, events triggered by photoperiod can vary a great deal depending on the species in question.

For instance, different species of flowers fill entirely different niches, which is why flowers may be in bloom

during all four seasons of the year. Events in the animal kingdom are also hard-wired to photoperiod,

which comes as no surprise since both kingdoms are inseparably linked.

 

WRB, I think the following might help address your question.

To bolster spawning success, fish eggs hatch in a wide range of water temperatures.

But the temperature range & spawn timing is furthermore widened ,

when northern-strain, Florida-strain & intergrade bass all spawn in the same waterbody.

 

Roger

[Paul Roberts]

Here's my present understanding...

 

Photoperiod and temperature are related of course. But there's lots more to it. That's like saying, “bass spawn in spring”. True, but waters across the same latitude can spawn at different times. Even ponds one next to the other can do so. Water source, depth, and sun incidence, and weather are the primary factors that affect spawn timing because they control heating. Heat is what counts, and all waters gain heat a bit differently due to environmental particulars. Bass spawns get delayed some years.

 

Temperature is the “master” environmental factor for fish; it’s the best measure of spawn timing there is. One reason the ~60F thing holds up year after year is because 55F is the floor for bass eggs, where significant mortality occurs essentially culling a lot of nests that were placed too early, in the wrong place, or by whims of weather.

 

Flowers, again, tell us it's spring, even early, mid, or late spring. But, individuals vary and blooming tends to occur across weeks. If you plan to watch the … choke cherries, say… then pick one individual, and hope it doesn’t get chopped down. Even then, likely what you’ll find is that the circumstances that affect blooming in choke cherries are not lock-step with what happens with bass, or hummingbirds for that matter. Would be nice if things were simple, but they’re not. The best thing about time on the water is you get to keep your finger on the pulse. It’s a moving target. Photoperiod keeps things lock-step to a certain degree, but not enough to fish by. Otherwise, all we’d need is a regular old calendar to plan all our future trips. And we know how that pans out.

[RoLo]

Photoperiod keeps things lock-step to a certain degree, but not enough to fish by. Otherwise, all we’d need is a regular old calendar to plan all our future trips. And we know how that pans out.

 

Crystal River, Florida has a year-round water temperature of 72 degrees.

What would you do with your water thermometer?

With a calendar (i.e. photoperiod), it's impossible to miss the pre-spawn period.

 

Rainbow River, Florida has a year-round water temperature of 73 deg

What good is a water thermometer?

With a calendar (i.e. photoperiod) it's a cinch to nail the pre-spawn period every year.

 

Ponce De Leon Springs, Florida has a year-round temperature of 68 deg

Otter Springs, Florida has a year-round temperature of 73 degrees.

Etcetera, etc.

 

Roger

[Paul Roberts]

Those bass may be cued by photoperiod alone. In some fully tropical waters that never drop below 75F, introduced largemouth's have been known to have extended spawning periods with spawns initiated by water level increases. But I wouldn't extrapolate either to the rest of the planet. In 99.999999% of bass waters, temperature is the cue. Apparently, spawning seasons stretch longer the further south you go, and shorter as you go north.

 

I'm guessing that there are water temperature changes in those springs too, however slight. Bass are, apparently (according to Keith Jones -I haven't found the original research), sensitive to temperature changes of 0.1 degree C. Regardless, without a floor, the bass populations don't have that restriction. They conform to what works -a cue- and it probably coincides with food production in a very few waters in which temperature change is limited. Photoperiod may wind up acting alone in such a case. I know at least one 1955 paper on Silver Springs says so, but I'm not up on the latest there.

[WRB]

The is a PRF paper "water temperature drives the spawn", U of Florida.

If you search largemoutg bass spawn, every state has similar published papers, can't find any paper that mentions photoperiod as a primary factor or make reference.

Tom

[Catt]

I think there is a misunderstanding of what the original post is.

I understand temperature plays a huge role in the incubation & hatching of the eggs (spawn). But if we are talking "Other Indications Of Prespawn Bass Besides Temperature", then no.

I'm goona give y'all some empirical evidence based on some 1,000s of hours chasing these little green demons around in circles. If y'all sit around watching for some mystical number on a thermometer y'all will miss a big portion of the pre-spawn.

[A-Jay]

I think there is a misunderstanding of what the original post is.

I understand temperature plays a huge role in the incubation & hatching of the eggs (spawn). But if we are talking "Other Indications Of Prespawn Bass Besides Temperature", then no.

I'm goona give y'all some empirical evidence based on some 1,000s of hours chasing these little green demons around in circles. If y'all sit around watching for some mystical number on a thermometer y'all will miss a big portion of the pre-spawn.

 

The only "Factor" I believe to be totally true regarding when the Pre-spawn actually begins is;

 

It always seems to starts much earlier than I expect it to.

 

A-Jay

[Catt]

The only "Factor" I believe to be totally true regarding when the Pre-spawn actually begins is;

It always seems to starts much earlier than I expect it to.

A-Jay

All empirical evidence points to there being no set reason for pre-spawn as far as I know & water temperature had very little if anything to do with it.

[hoosierbass07]

 How about this - last spring (early spring) I went to a strip pit (with very clear water) and saw lots of small bass in the shallow water in the sunlight.  Since I saw lots of small bass there, does that mean the larger bass are also moving around and getting read to spawn somewhere in the pond?  I was only bank fishing at that time and the only bass I saw were those small ones getting some sun.  

[Choporoz]

If I recall correctly, think that last year we were approaching 'pre-spawn' activity almost perfectly in synchronization with Catt and WRB squaring off - in only the friendliest, most respectful manner, of course

[A-Jay]

All empirical evidence points to there being no set reason for pre-spawn as far as I know & water temperature had very little if anything to do with it.

 

I don't care to know Why some of the biggest fish of the season come a little shallower & ready to eat making them easier to target, I just try to be there when they do.

 

A-Jay

[RoLo]

I don't care to know Why some of the biggest fish of the season come a little shallower & ready to eat making them easier to target,

I just try to be there when they do.

A-Jay

 

The problem being, 'apathy' has a very poor record for repeatability and duplication. 

In lieu, I invested in an ichthyic meter that quantifies the sex hormone in cow bass.

It's called an "Estrogenograph", but be warned it's time-consuming and very expensive 

 

Roger

[WRB]

What is pre spawn to you?

Some believe pre spawn starts when the female eggs begin to develop during the summer and technically that would be correct.

To me pre spawn means the time period when bass transition from the cold water or winter period most lakes experience. Generally bass go deeper to find warmer water and stay deep until the pre spawn transition starts. Deep is relative to the lake where you fish and the type of prey the bass stay close to. For me pre spawn is about a 3 month period where I fish; late Jan to March, depending on how cold or warm the weather is during that time period. This year pre spawn the bass started to locate at pre spawn areas in mid Dec.

The bass and bait are about 30' to 60' deep and slowly move up to about 15' over that period.

The spawn is easy to determine, you can see the bass cruising or near beds. Pre spawn, can't see the bass without your sonar and no beds yet, until the first wave of spawner's.

After the spawn starts there are groups of bass in variuos stages of per spawn, spawn and post for a few months.

Tom

[Paul Roberts]

Getting really excited for this year's bass fishing, and especially intrigued by hitting the pre-spawn. Are there any other indicators that the spawning-aged bass are moving into shallower water besides getting water temperature readings? The reason I ask is because I kept a log of my observations last year in terms of when the lily pads started growing (May) and when Sunfish and juvenile bass started showing up near the shoreline, as well as when I managed to hook/catch anything. However, I didn't have a means of measuring water temperature so I don't have any data on that. I started getting bites during the last week of March last year from dinks (10 inches or less...yes true dinks) just off the shore in water that ranges from 3 to 6 feet deep; would this be a good indication that the big bass are starting to come shallow looking to feed as well? Better yet, are there any correlations between prespawn and some other phenomenon such as when the cherry blossoms start to bloom, for example?

 

Thanks for any insight. Don't want to miss out on this opportunity to tangle with some trophy fish!

There is a LOT of info out there on this, but it’s not readily accessible by the general public. I’m working on bridging that gap. Wish me luck; it’s no small task.

 

This topic gets discussed every year about this time. It’s worth searching back for pre-spawn discussions. Here are a couple from the archives:

 

http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/77208-the-spawn-how-long-does-it-go-on-for/

 

http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/81078-triggers-for-pre-spawnspawn/

[hawgenvy]

"Water Temps Drive the Spawn," by Mark Rogers and Dr Mike Allen, Bass Times, Jan 2006:

 

http://sfrc.ufl.edu/allenlab/Popular%20Articles/Rogers&Allen_BassTimes.pdf

[hawgenvy]

Keep in mind that the spawn period is much longer the further south you go. In the tropics and south Florida, the bass spawn can last for several months. In the far north it could last only three weeks. Seasonal climatic changes (temp and day length) and seasonal biological changes (cyclic features of other related flora and fauna -- like insect hatches or the blue gill spawns) occur more abruptly the further north you go. Here in So Florida, summer seems to last practically all year and winter water temps can be in the 70s. And lots of water is shallow in SoFlo. The day length changes are less dramatic too. And pre-spawn, spawn, and post-spawn bass can all linger in the same area at the same time.

 

Tonight the frogs are singing like crazy. I wonder if that corresponds to anything bassy. Maybe it's the frog chirp that is the proximate (most direct) signal for the initiation of the bass spawn! You can be sure that there is much interesting fish ecology/biology waiting to be discovered.

[Comfortably Numb]

An old timer told me when the dogwoods bloom fish are on the bed.

[Trek]

  I don't know about the rest of the nation but up north here our days are getting longer. All of nature reacts to that. I noticed the tree buds were starting to swell up. It was -10 last week so temp had nothing to do with this. I believe bass are no different. When the ice comes off those bass already have eggs in them. They can't hold them for ever. We've had years where the winter seems to drag on for ever and some years it over in March. So I do believe up north here the water temps play a big roll on how good the spawn is ( survival  rate ) but has little to do with when they lay their eggs. That process is already in motion.

[DrKnew]

In Minnesota there is a saying that when the Lilacs are blooming , the Bass are spawning, and, while only a saying, it seems to play out that way.....Hard to miss as Lilacs have a wonderful fragrance and are plentiful up north.