What Did You Learn From The Classic

[Smokinal]

I learned not to tell anyone I planted 50 brush piles.

I guess I need to clarify my post. I wouldn't tell because it causes 7 pages of useless overthinking.

[Catch 22]

 Did Ashley truly benefit from his added structure. I have no  idea  if he did. Anyone?

[Team9nine]

While I'm not a fan of pros being able to do this, even preferring that they'd make a rule against it, the simple fact is that, A.), it's not presently against the rules on either professional circuit, B.) it was no secret that Casey had done this previous to the tournament, and C.) every other pro could have done the same thing, though not quite as easily. We only need look back to the last FLW Cup, also won on a herring lake (Murray), where Anthony Gagliardi (who lived on the lake) took the title and the $500,000. He did the exact same thing as Casey (see media excerpt below), yet I don't recall a single post in this forum condemning him and how he won. It's all just part of life on the professional bass tournament trail. if you want to direct your frustration at someone, it should be to the powers at B.A.S.S. and FLW to try and get them to change their rules, not at the anglers who simply followed those rules.

 

 

1st Place Anthony Gagliardi (13-2, 10-3, 13-15, 13-14; 51-2 )

 

Gagliardi on his primary pattern:"...The other thing I had going on was fishing some shallow brush up the Saluda River with a 10" worm, some of the brush was stuff that I had planted myself before this tournament."

 

"I went out of my way to put it on ugly looking banks where there wasn't much around.  These are small little brushpiles that you aren't going to find by idling over them.  All that hard work putting that stuff out paid off for me on day two, which was critical.  I caught 3 good fish out of those spots, and without that I don't pull this off."

 

[corn-on-the-rob]

Yea as much as I was taken aback at first but here is the deal:

 

1. Can I plant my own piles?

2. Can I have a friend plant piles?

3. Can a stranger plant a pile then can I take down coordinates when I see him do it?

4. Can I ever fish a planted brush pile that I found when no one told me because it is still planted?

5. Can I ask a friend for fishing spots?

6. Can I ask a local or guide for coordinates to some good spots?

7. Can I use a public map that has popular fishing spots marked on it?

7. and so on...

 

The list is intentionally facetious but my point stands. If #4 is okay, then #1 should be okay.

 

It is a really muddied line, but the rules would have to be: cannot intentionally fish altered area made with intent to attract fish by you or others. Which in itself is 100% unenforceable; How do you know if a spot was natural or unnatural unless you scuba dove or knew if someone pushed that laydown into the water? Can't do it.

 

There is no difference between a pro seeing somebody planting a brush pile and marking it, finding a brushpile someone planted and marking it, or planting it themselves and marking it as long as it falls under state/local/tournament laws.

 

Planting a pile does not ensure it will hold fish (bass for that matter), or big fish, or make them bite, or that no one else would find/fish them.

[RSM789]

I said it before, but the reason that a competitor planting brush piles feels "off" is because it is like insider trading.

 

Everyone has access to the same maps, electronics, lures etc.  You choose what you believe will bring success & everyone is on equal footing, because everyone has access to the same information.  How they process & what they do with the information makes the difference.  How hard they work to find brush piles or other cover is part of that process.

 

Now, if one competitor alters the playing field in a way that the other anglers aren't privy to, that is an advantage.  It is insider knowledge.  It may not be useful to win the tournament, but it is still insider knowledge.  It really is no different than 1 angler having a Marshal who tells him otherwise unknown information about the lake while the other anglers have Marshals who don't say anything.  

 

My suggestion would be if a competitor is allowed to alter the playing field, he should have to make that information public knowledge with the other competitors.  Ethically, if he sees someone planting a brush pile, he should make that public knowledge as well to avoid the appearance of impropriety (paying others to alter the playing field) If he finds brush piles, no need to make it public, everyone else had the opportunity to find them as well.

 

Do you really want fishing tournaments to be largely determined by who can secretly tilt the playing field in their favor or even destroy other parts of the playing field to hurt other competitors prior to or during the competition?  This is fishing, not Death Race 2000.

[corn-on-the-rob]

I said it before, but the reason that a competitor planting brush piles feels "off" is because it is like insider trading.

 

Everyone has access to the same maps, electronics, lures etc.  You choose what you believe will bring success & everyone is on equal footing, because everyone has access to the same information.  How they process & what they do with the information makes the difference.  How hard they work to find brush piles or other cover is part of that process.

 

Now, if one competitor alters the playing field in a way that the other anglers aren't privy to, that is an advantage.  It is insider knowledge.  It may not be useful to win the tournament, but it is still insider knowledge.  It really is no different than 1 angler having a Marshal who tells him otherwise unknown information about the lake while the other anglers have Marshals who don't say anything.  

 

My suggestion would be if a competitor is allowed to alter the playing field, he should have to make that information public knowledge with the other competitors.  Ethically, if he sees someone planting a brush pile, he should make that public knowledge as well to avoid the appearance of impropriety (paying others to alter the playing field) If he finds brush piles, no need to make it public, everyone else had the opportunity to find them as well.

 

Do you really want fishing tournaments to be largely determined by who can secretly tilt the playing field in their favor or even destroy other parts of the playing field to hurt other competitors prior to or during the competition?  This is fishing, not Death Race 2000.

 

So my buddy who lives on a lake i'm gonna tournament fish tells me where a rock-pile is, do I publicly let all the other anglers know where that rock-pile is?

 

EDIT: I do agree that I'd rather it not happen but like II mentioned in my post, it has a ton of gray area.

[Montanaro]

1. Everyone has practice and high quality sonar

2. The bass weren't relating to cover

3. This convo is off topic

I learned that Swindle is great with snot.

[Patrick Morrow]

When I think that weather sucks in a particular day, then now I keep my mouth shut and know things can be a lot worse.

[scaleface]

I learned that Casey Ashley is a much  more skilled angler than I , because there is no way I could have retrieved an over sized RoadRunner through all those brush piles .

[Justin Mott]

Honestly I learned a little more about how the Herrings move throughout the day in that system. I found that part to be really interesting and useful.

 

The brush pile business is meaningless to me. Its part of the rules and culture. Everyone does it. Until they change the rules about getting information from local anglers and guides, the business of dropping brush piles is merely drop in the bucket.

 

More tournaments are won from asking for local help such as coordinates, baits, etc. If you are really worried about the integrity of the sport and the honor of a title, then I would invite you to look in that direction first. Then I'd feel more justified in coming back to the brush pile issue.

[J Francho]

Actually, local help is wayyyyy more against the rules than brush piles.

[RSM789]

So my buddy who lives on a lake i'm gonna tournament fish tells me where a rock-pile is, do I publicly let all the other anglers know where that rock-pile is?

I would say that needs to be disclosed. Any information given to one angler should be available to all anglers.

The reason for a touranment is to see who is the best angler on a body of water over a certian time period. The skills that are being tested include the ability to find structure & cover that may hold fish. If someone else is supplying that information to an angler, then it is defeating the purpose of the tournament.

Back to a competitor planting brushpiles, is there any other kind of competition where a participant is allowed to secretly alter the playing field without the fellow competitors being aware of the actions? I can't think of one.

[J Francho]

I missed the secret part…the brush piles are all you guys want to talk about.

[RSM789]

I missed the secret part…the brush piles are all you guys want to talk about.

If no one else knows the locations of the cover you planted, wouldn't that be considered secret?

Not "secret" in that you are trying to hide that you did it, rather "secret" in that you are not disclosing the location.

[J Francho]

Should he share the rest of what he knows? Actually sharing the location of those brush piles with another competitor is against the rules. He can't unknow or undo what he's done in years living on the lake.

[Glenn]

I learned that this Classic has become WAY over-analyzed.

[RSM789]

No one said anything about unknowing what you know or undoing what you have done.  If he finds cover through the methods every angler has access to (fishing, maps, electronics), there is no need to share that information - everyone is on equal footing.  If he has altered the playing field, then he doesn't tell one competitor, he should make it common knowledge for the entire field.  To not do that allows for insider knowledge that the rest of the field is not privy to in the manner that you learned the info, which is exactly the same as getting information from a local. 

 

A person who lives on the lake a tournament is held will always have a home field advantage, that is known & accepted.  No different than a basketball player being more familiar with his home court.  However, if a basketball player alters the playing field (loosens boards, changes the shape of the rim), he has insider knowledge that the other competitors don't.

[plumworm]

I was down on Rayburn in the late 90's. We were in a cabin next to a couple of ladies fishing a Bassin Gals tourney. Cocktails  on the deck led us to discuss fishing. I remarked that most of our fish had come on a "sourgrape" zoom lizard. One of the ladies jumped up and said, " you do know that now, we have to disqualify ourselves because of what you just told us" The other one told her to " shut up", and have another drink. No outside information? BS.

[RSM789]

I'm not saying outside information doesn't happen, I am making a suggestion as to what standard the competitors should be held to.

 

In your example, i don't believe the ladies should have been disqualified, rather they should then be obligated to notify the tournament directors (who can notify the rest of the field) that some drunk guy told them that most of his fish came on sourgrape zoom lizards.  Everyone will have the same information, what they choose to do with it is their decision.

[Oregon Native]

I learned that this Classic has become WAY over-analyzed.

No kidding....but then what isn't now

[wnspain]

No. As I specifically noted, the rules address the issue and the practice is allowed.

However, rules change over time and maybe this one should be discussed and

reconsidered.

Regardless of the ethical aspect of the subject, how would you suggest it be modified, and then how are you going to enforce it? Anyone who really wants to seed his favorite area can hire any joe schmo to drop XXX at Lat xxx Lon xxx. 

[scaleface]

Regardless of the ethical aspect of the subject, how would you suggest it be modified, and then how are you going to enforce it? Anyone who really wants to seed his favorite area can hire any joe schmo to drop XXX at Lat xxx Lon xxx. 

Yeah , it could never be enforced .I do think that  others  shouldn't be able to sink them for you. In other words Strike King shouldnt be allowed to alter the environment then give their pros the waypoints.    

[RSM789]

Regardless of the ethical aspect of the subject, how would you suggest it be modified, and then how are you going to enforce it? Anyone who really wants to seed his favorite area can hire any joe schmo to drop XXX at Lat xxx Lon xxx. 

 

There will always be people who cheat. 

 

I'm not, nor is anyone else, suggesting that Casey Ashley cheated.  We are just pointing out a loophole that for the integrity of the sport should be modified to keep information about the condition of the playing field available for all.  Plant brush piles to your hearts delight, heck you could even plant them in bad areas in an effort to throw your competitors off.  Just make your actions public knowledge.

 

On a completely different subject, but still pertaining to the Classic (albeit it last years), remember when Randy Howell caught that 6+ late on day 3 & it had those leeches stuck to it?  His natural & normal reaction was to pull them off & throw them in the water.  If someone wanted to be a jerk, could have they claimed a rules violation of chumming?  Probably not, since the food source originated from a fish you caught, like shad thrown up by a fish, but I am glad that it never even came up.

[InfamousBG]

I learned that Rapala still makes some of the best jerk baits on the market (Shadow Rap).

[J Francho]

I learned that this Classic has become WAY over-analyzed.

I don't agrree. They all get this much attention. What bait did Kriet use? Where can I get that color red eye shad? Hand painted wiggle warts? Lol. All part of the fun