BIGGUNZ Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 I keep hearing spiral wrapped rods what is the reason for this? Quote
Super User Tywithay Posted January 11, 2015 Super User Posted January 11, 2015 Puts the guides on the bottom of the blank to eliminate blank twist when fighting a fish. You can also use less guides than a conventional layout, which means less weight, better balance, and better sensitivity. Quote
BIGGUNZ Posted January 11, 2015 Author Posted January 11, 2015 Does it improve casting distance Quote
Super User Tywithay Posted January 11, 2015 Super User Posted January 11, 2015 Does it improve casting distance A lot of folks see small improvements in distance and accuracy, others don't see much improvement. It certainly won't hurt distance at all. Quote
Super User Montanaro Posted January 11, 2015 Super User Posted January 11, 2015 http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/topic/84644-spiral-wrapped-rods/ Quote
FloridaFishinFool Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Its not just rod twist. For me it is more about fighting a fish without the line ever touching the rod. With guides on top as the rod bends down under load the line comes into contact with the rod and has to skew off to the side of the rod and there is contact of line to rod between each guide where it bends and this is added friction and line wear that is not necessary. Moving the guides to the underside eliminates line touching the rod period. More like a spinning rod setup with a baitcaster on top. Absolutely love them! It does not inhibit casting and I can't say it really improves casting, but I just like it more than guides on top. If I can eliminate a problem by going with spiral wraps then that is where I will go. Try them! You may never look back! Quote
Super User Fishes in trees Posted January 11, 2015 Super User Posted January 11, 2015 I don't have a lot of experience with spiral wrapped guides, but what I do have is pretty positive. In the early 90's, I bought an old Bud Erhardt composite crank bait rod that had the spiral wrapped guides. and it worked great for a decade. I used the rod mostly to throw rattle traps with. Then, a couple of springs ago, like a dummy, I decided to use braid to throw traps on that rod. Early 90's rod guides do not stand up to braid like current rod guides so and it wasn't even summer yet and I had worn grooves in the first guide, closest to the reel seat and the tip guide. At some point I will find someone in KC to put new guides on that rod and find the time to get it to them. Currently that rod is on the injured reserve list. 1 Quote
Delaware Valley Tackle Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 All my personal use rods are spiral wrapped and I suggest them to clients. The spiral wrapped rod is more stable all but eliminating rotational torque. Casting improves to a degree as the line flows naturally instead of fighting gravity and you can usually get away with 1 or 2 less running guides which helps maximize the blanks responsiveness. These are small things but all help squeeze the most out of a rod. 1 Quote
RB 77 Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Its not just rod twist. For me it is more about fighting a fish without the line ever touching the rod. With guides on top as the rod bends down under load the line comes into contact with the rod and has to skew off to the side of the rod and there is contact of line to rod between each guide where it bends and this is added friction and line wear that is not necessary. Moving the guides to the underside eliminates line touching the rod period. More like a spinning rod setup with a baitcaster on top. Absolutely love them! It does not inhibit casting and I can't say it really improves casting, but I just like it more than guides on top. If I can eliminate a problem by going with spiral wraps then that is where I will go. Try them! You may never look back! If a rod is wrapped properly the line should never touch the blank under load. I learned this building rods with mentoring from industry professionals who have been building salt water equipment for decades that are meant to handle fish several hundred pounds. Now I’m not saying I haven’t seen rods do this, but a blank built properly in the hands of a competent builder should never do this. The spiral rods are not all that popular out here on the west coast, but I have seen them on occasion and they have sparked my interest. They seem like the would work well for some applications but not for others, just like any application specific piece of equipment. Horses for courses you could say… Quote
FloridaFishinFool Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 If a rod is wrapped properly the line should never touch the blank under load. I was describing a rod with guides on top would allow the line to touch the rod under load, not a spiral wrap. Quote
Super User Tywithay Posted January 11, 2015 Super User Posted January 11, 2015 I was describing a rod with guides on top would allow the line to touch the rod under load, not a spiral wrap. Even with the guides on top, the line shouldn't touch the blank. If there's enough guides and they're spaced properly, the line should only touch the bottom and side of the guide rings. When the line tries to roll over to the side of the ring, that's what creates the torque, which can be alleviated with the spiral wrap. Quote
BIGGUNZ Posted January 11, 2015 Author Posted January 11, 2015 Can I have it done to a rod I already have? And if who? Quote
RB 77 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I was describing a rod with guides on top would allow the line to touch the rod under load, not a spiral wrap. Even with the guides on top, the line shouldn't touch the blank. If there's enough guides and they're spaced properly, the line should only touch the bottom and side of the guide rings. When the line tries to roll over to the side of the ring, that's what creates the torque, which can be alleviated with the spiral wrap. Exactly! I understand the difference between the two rods. If the line touches the blank at all under load, its simple, add more guides. One thing to note that is the utmost importance is to properly align the guides along the spine of the blank. On top for casting, underneath for spinning. The spiral warp is intriguing because its shifts the torque of the load under pressure on casting and conventional rods. Quote
FloridaFishinFool Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Even with the guides on top, the line shouldn't touch the blank. If there's enough guides and they're spaced properly, the line should only touch the bottom and side of the guide rings. When the line tries to roll over to the side of the ring, that's what creates the torque, which can be alleviated with the spiral wrap. When the guides are on top, and you put the rod under load, the line will touch the rod and not only touch it, but now rub against it between every guide where the rod is bending enough to bring the line into contact with the rod. I just took an image of a brand new Irod 7'11" IRG7113CC-MH. I am not bending the rod by hand as much as it would be under load with a fish, and even with just a small amount of bend in the tip the photo tells the truth of this situation: Adding more guides on top is not a good viable solution for this problem. That is merely a band aid approach that may not completely solve this problem. The best solution is to put the guides on the under side of a rod so under load the line is pulled away from the rod same as a spinning rod or a spiral wrap would. As I see it the best solution is spiral wrap. No other way around this problem that I can see. And I am not about to double or triple the number of guides on top of my brand new rod to attempt to solve this problem that way. If I were to put any guides on this rod, I'd remove all of them on the rod, and relocate them to the underside and just turn it into a spiral wrap and be done with it. I can not imagine what my rods would look like if I added a bunch more guides to it to try and stop this from happening on the top side. Quote
Delaware Valley Tackle Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Line rubbing on a bass Rod is minimal concern as the rod is rarely bent that deeply and never for long. As long as there are enough guides to keep the line from bowing below the blank on a deep bend the stress is distributed sufficiently. In addition, Spine is '80s technology. Modern theory is that spine is irrelevant because the rod is not always fished on the same plane. We now build on the straightest axis. 2 Quote
RB 77 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 That line rubbing and extremely wide guide spacing go against everything that professional rod builders with 20 to 30 plus years experience have taught me. None of my factory Shimano, G Loomis, Falcon, Daiwa, etc rods do that as far as I know. Please don’t get it twisted; I’m not trying to start a heated debate, just voicing my opinion. Also, thank you for posting a picture of that rod under load. I would have a hard time believing it if I didn’t see it with my own eyes. The pics don’t lie, that line is rubbing. I am blown away by how much contact there is! *Edited to better convey my thoughts. 1 Quote
Super User S Hovanec Posted January 12, 2015 Super User Posted January 12, 2015 Adding more guides isn't the answer to a "properly" built rod. You just end up with a bunch of guides adding unnecessary weight, which is more detrimental to a rods performance than line scrub. With today's low frame guides, it is just about impossible to keep the line off of the blank without having 12 or more guides on a 7' rod. Quote
RB 77 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Line rubbing on a bass Rod is minimal concern as the rod is rarely bent that deeply and never for long. As long as there are enough guides to keep the line from bowing below the blank on a deep bend the stress is distributed sufficiently. In addition, Spine is '80s technology. Modern theory is that spine is irrelevant because the rod is not always fished on the same plane. We now build on the straightest axis. I also agree on the importance being diminished somewhat on a bass rod. Once you get into bigger game however it becomes more important. This comes in to play when fishing straight up and down on the rail vs. several different planes when fishing different techniques and presentations for bass. Interesting food for thought guys. Quote
RB 77 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 In tell you guys one thing, both FloridaFishinFool and Delaware Valley Tackle have got me thinking. Keep the different takes coming guys... Quote
Super User S Hovanec Posted January 12, 2015 Super User Posted January 12, 2015 I agree with HEAVY rods. Its not hard to keep the line off of the blank when the bottom of the guide ring is 1/2" to 3/4" high. The bottom of the ring on a 4mm Alconite is 1/16" or less off the blank. Quote
RB 77 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Adding more guides isn't the answer to a "properly" built rod. You just end up with a bunch of guides adding unnecessary weight, which is more detrimental to a rods performance than line scrub. With today's low frame guides, it is just about impossible to keep the line off of the blank without having 12 or more guides on a 7' rod. I know weight reduction is crucial in bass rods, but a "properly" built can achive this. I've seen it done plenty of times and have built them myself. You dont need 12 guides. It can be done just fine with less. There are a dozen different ways to skin a cat... Quote
RB 77 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I agree with HEAVY rods. Its not hard to keep the line off of the blank when the bottom of the guide ring is 1/2" to 3/4" high. The bottom of the ring on a 4mm Alconite is 1/16" or less off the blank. Very true. I havent built any rods with super small giudes or "micro" guides yet, but I could see where could be a big concern. Quote
RB 77 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Also, thank you S Havanec for pointing out the difference of a lighter rod with smaller guides vs a heavier rod with much larger guides. That definitely plays a huge factor. Quote
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